Can anyone be DEAD IN CHRIST or is that a contradiction in itself?

[DeighAnn]

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


I am thinking these verse here are some of the most popular ever.  Pre trib rap uses them.  All resurrect on the same day uses them.  Post trib uses them.  And I would really like to get to the truth of what is and what is not written here.  

I am pretty sure that all those who do not believe in pre trib,  do not,  because there is quite simply, no church mentioned here. And for that matter,  the 'church' isn't mentioned anywhere anyone has ever pointed me to.  

Just doing back ground so you know EXACTLY where I am coming from

THE SUBJECT  concerning them which are asleep,  as in  THOSE WHO HAVE DIED

THE QUESTION  where do they go

THE ANSWER  Christ rose, even so them

MORE INFORMATION GIVEN  God through Jesus will bring them (that died and rose)  back with Him

THE SUMMARY  WE DIE, RISE, COME BACK WITH CHRIST



MORE INFORMATION  There will be people still alive when Christ returns, and that has nothing to do with what happens when we die, because when we die, we rise and will be returning with Christ


INFORMATION GIVEN ABOUT CHRISTS RETURN   1.  The Lord shall descend from heaven   2. there will be a shout of command   3. also the voice of the archangel  4.  and with the trump of God



WHICH LEADS TO, AS I SEE IT, THE QUESTION

AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST


FIRST the word  "dead"

3498  nekros
dead, lifeless, SUBJECT TO DEATH, mortal, a dead body, a corpse

Some say that these "dead" are Christians that have gone to sleep.  Parts of them staying and waiting, parts of them going back to GOD.  
1.  Are those who have taken Jesus as their Lord and Saviour,  before they died/slept, still subject to death?  aka mortal?
2.  Can a 'part' of them be lifeless?  dead?   

3.  AND IF IT ISN'T THEM, THEN WHO ARE THESE  'DEAD'?  WHERE DID THEY COME FROM?  ARE THEY 'NEWLY' DEAD?

THE WORD 'IN'

1722 en in, on, at, by, with

 in Christ  

by Christ

 

IS IT POSSIBLE FOR THERE TO BE anything DEAD 'IN CHRIST'? 
I don't believe so, not 'in nor on'. 
Then again, I am not a scribe.  Which begs the question 'who are the scribes'.  

at Christ, with Christ and by Christ yes  

Thoughts?  Revelations?  Wisdom?  Knowledge?  


THE END OF THE AGE  We who are alive are changed, we meet those who have returned with Christ, and are ever with Him.  


So what happened to those who took the mark?  We know Satan is destroyed at the Brightness of His coming, what about those who worshipped him?  

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by DeighAnn
it posted before I wrote a single word, don't know how but that is what happened

[missmuffet]

7 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 

[OneLight]

Can you provide scripture to anyone being dead in Christ outside of those who have died and await His return/rapture?

[DeighAnn]

36 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Can you provide scripture to anyone being dead in Christ outside of those who have died and await His return/rapture?

I can't even provide scripture to anyone being dead in Christ anywhere.  Can you?  

[DeighAnn]

6 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Hey, Deigh 

Could you maybe slow down a little bit and ask just one question at a time...pretty please?  

Ok, What happens to those who received the mark when Christ returns?  I would ask if you saw the problem with that but that would be two. 

[OneLight]

53 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I can't even provide scripture to anyone being dead in Christ anywhere.  Can you?  

Nope, which is why I asked.  I have heard people say that a lot, but if we are in Christ, we are not dead but alive for God is not the God of the dead, but the living. 

Matthew 22:32:  "‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Mark 12:27: "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."

Luke 20:38: "For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

Can you provide scripture to anyone being dead in Christ outside of those who have died and await His return/rapture?

No, but I can provide scripture where there is no 'AWAITING' His return.  That body soul and spirit are one even though a body may be changed.  

 

John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.


John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
 

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;


 

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob  God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Matthew 22:33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

 

 

[DeighAnn]

4 minutes ago, SONshine said:

At the 7th trump/vial, we are all changed in a twinkling of an eye into our spiritual bodies.  Every knee will bow.

OK.  If ALL that are alive and remain are changed AND ARE EVER WITH THE LORD,


THEN those who took the Mark of the Beast would be RECEIVING their immortality

just the same as those who OVERCAME? 

is what I hear you saying. 

[Riverwalker]

You have laid out a salient point.  But is the rising here speaking of resurrection day, or when we will rise to meet Jesus as Spirits. Because even if this is post trib when Jesus RETURNS to earth (as opposed to meeting us in the air) according to Revelation 20, there are two resurrections, one on his return of the saints martyred in the trib and  those who died before the trib do not see physical resurrection until after the thousand year reign.  So this MUST be speaking of something else...where our bodies are still dead and this is speaking, as you point out as physically dead.

3498  nekros
dead, lifeless, SUBJECT TO DEATH, mortal, a dead body, a corpse

But our Spirit/ Soul...lives on and rises to meet those who remain.  Rapture does not include the bodies.

The verse  -  1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  tells me we are not looking at this right

If when Jesus Died,  they put his body in the tomb where he hung out to await for Sunday, then why did He promise the thief on the cross, that "this day you will be with me in Paradise"  (Paradise being the place that the righteous dead awaited the coming of the messiah before the could go to heaven)

When we (our bodies) die, our Spirits/Souls are separated from our bodies, and the body goes for the long dirt nap. But the Spirit/Soul goes to God in heaven. to await the resurrection.  We don't sleep moldering in the grave awaiting resurrection. We are in heaven with God.   I do not think that word rise here refers to resurrection, but rather to the rising of the great cloud of witness that will join with Jesus.  

2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Also the bible says we are seated in heavenly places now!  (Kind of like the movie matrix, where we are hear and there, but there is much nicer)

Ephesians 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 

So I do not think we can quite rule this scripture out of the rapture discussion

Edited February 3, 2021 by Riverwalker
sorry if this is all flunky I was writing and thinking at the same time;)

[OneLight]

6 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

No, but I can provide scripture where there is no 'AWAITING' His return.  That body soul and spirit are one even though a body may be changed.

The verses you provided do not discount His return.  Even Jesus said to watch as we do not know the hour Jesus will return.  Do you need scripture?  Are you saying that Jesus will not return to "catch up" His people, as in the rapture?