Seven Year Tribulation?

[Diaste]

On 8/15/2021 at 12:06 PM, Leonardo Von said:

For those who are in Christ, the tribulation begins now because the love of many will wax cold (Mat 24:12 - and this pandemic will accelerate this process):

• 2Ti 3:12 -> "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.".

And I am of the mind scripture is clear on this. No 7 year 'tribulation'.

[WilliamL]

On 2/15/2021 at 1:42 AM, Charlie744 said:

Rather than a continuous 490 years, they believe there is a "gap" between the ending of the 483 years and the beginning of this last 7 years  - so, they (again, most) are awaiting this last week to begin....

Unfortunately, this "concept" was conceived by the Jesuits around the 1500's to provide a strong counter to the coming or beginning Reformation.

Actually, Hippolytus (late 2nd century AD) was the first to promote this view. But he was wrong too.

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Actually, Hippolytus (late 2nd century AD) was the first to promote this view. But he was wrong too.

Thank you... I did not know that! I was there for when the Jesuits decided to make a new interpretation of Daniel but was out of town for Hippo's comment.....

Anyway, Daniel's 70 weeks are completed.... When Jesus was baptized in the Jordan by John, that begin His ministry and the start of the last week of 7 years. He came exactly right on time.

As we all know, His ministry lasted only 3.5 years  or 1/2 of the last week but He completed everything He was sent to complete. And, He because of His exact timing, He ministry was present for 4 of the 7 Passovers that would fall within the final week. This symbolized the first 4 of the 7 Feasts.... the 5th will occur at His second coming - Trumpets  - All so perfectly planned!   Charlie

 

[Diaste]

47 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you... I did not know that! I was there for when the Jesuits decided to make a new interpretation of Daniel but was out of town for Hippo's comment.....

Anyway, Daniel's 70 weeks are completed.... When Jesus was baptized in the Jordan by John, that begin His ministry and the start of the last week of 7 years. He came exactly right on time.

As we all know, His ministry lasted only 3.5 years  or 1/2 of the last week but He completed everything He was sent to complete. And, He because of His exact timing, He ministry was present for 4 of the 7 Passovers that would fall within the final week. This symbolized the first 4 of the 7 Feasts.... the 5th will occur at His second coming - Trumpets  - All so perfectly planned!   Charlie

 

I think I make a solid case for a full 7 years based solely on the Revelation.

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I think I make a solid case for a full 7 years based solely on the Revelation.

Thanks .... please note I just got back onto the site and have been absent for some time and have not be following much..... Would you mind directing me to the page (s) where you provided this info.?  Also, the interpretation of Daniel does not need or require one to look outside the Book of Daniel unless it looks back to the Scriptures - Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.

Daniel must be interpreted on its own and it will speak to Revelation. Revelation must agree with Daniel but it does not and can not interpret Daniel.

I have yet to study Revelation and I will only do so after my study of Daniel is completed and then use its interpretations to aid in understanding Revelation.

However, this 7 year tribulation period is a perfect example of trying to interpret Daniel with Revelation. There is no 7 year trib. period and the entire 490 year prophecy was indeed fulfilled with the Messiah coming on the very first day of the last week. The 70 weeks prophecy was all about the restoration of the Jews, the city, the buildings, the land, the Temple AND THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE - THE HOLINESS IN THE TEMPLE. Before they were taken to Babylon, Jeremiah went into the Temple and took the ARK (represents the Holiness / Presence of God). He did not want the Babylonians to take it away. Consequently, even thought ALL the pieces were once again restored to Jerusalem after their captivity (everything was once again restored to pre- Babylonian status), it became READY to have the Presence of God brought back into it.... but the ARK would never be found and this was purposeful.... the last and most important piece to be  restored would be the Presence of God and this would occur on the first day of the last week. Jesus Himself would be that Presence.... only to be rejected by His people. If you look at ALL the pieces that had to be restored for Jesus to arrive you will find that each one  of them was restored  during the first 69 weeks - this is why there is a definite separation of the 70 weeks into 3 separate periods - each was carved out by God to show us what pieces will be restored during each section. God would specifically identify the 6 fulfillments that the Messiah would complete and ALL were fulfilled in the last week.... This is why one should not look ahead to try and interpret Daniel by looking at Revelation - this should have been interpreted by Paul and the other Jews who were waiting for their Messiah to come... but they completely misread or did not realize how and why the Messiah would come.... and even until today, most do not understand the 70 weeks prophecy and purpose..... on the Cross, Jesus said, "it  is finished", meaning that even though He was not given the full last week to complete His mission, He would fulfill those 6 requirements.... "they did not know what they were doing"...... He would fulfill the Presence of God  in the Temple and replace the missing ARK..... the last piece to be restored.

Charlie

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks .... please note I just got back onto the site and have been absent for some time and have not be following much..... Would you mind directing me to the page (s) where you provided this info.?  Also, the interpretation of Daniel does not need or require one to look outside the Book of Daniel unless it looks back to the Scriptures - Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.

If I remembered where it was I could.

 

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Daniel must be interpreted on its own and it will speak to Revelation. Revelation must agree with Daniel but it does not and can not interpret Daniel.

I have yet to study Revelation and I will only do so after my study of Daniel is completed and then use its interpretations to aid in understanding Revelation.

However, this 7 year tribulation period is a perfect example of trying to interpret Daniel with Revelation. There is no 7 year trib. period and the entire 490 year prophecy was indeed fulfilled with the Messiah coming on the very first day of the last week. The 70 weeks prophecy was all about the restoration of the Jews, the city, the buildings, the land, the Temple AND THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE - THE HOLINESS IN THE TEMPLE. Before they were taken to Babylon, Jeremiah went into the Temple and took the ARK (represents the Holiness / Presence of God). He did not want the Babylonians to take it away. Consequently, even thought ALL the pieces were once again restored to Jerusalem after their captivity (everything was once again restored to pre- Babylonian status), it became READY to have the Presence of God brought back into it.... but the ARK would never be found and this was purposeful.... the last and most important piece to be  restored would be the Presence of God and this would occur on the first day of the last week. Jesus Himself would be that Presence.... only to be rejected by His people. If you look at ALL the pieces that had to be restored for Jesus to arrive you will find that each one  of them was restored  during the first 69 weeks - this is why there is a definite separation of the 70 weeks into 3 separate periods - each was carved out by God to show us what pieces will be restored during each section. God would specifically identify the 6 fulfillments that the Messiah would complete and ALL were fulfilled in the last week.... This is why one should not look ahead to try and interpret Daniel by looking at Revelation - this should have been interpreted by Paul and the other Jews who were waiting for their Messiah to come... but they completely misread or did not realize how and why the Messiah would come.... and even until today, most do not understand the 70 weeks prophecy and purpose..... on the Cross, Jesus said, "it  is finished", meaning that even though He was not given the full last week to complete His mission, He would fulfill those 6 requirements.... "they did not know what they were doing"...... He would fulfill the Presence of God  in the Temple and replace the missing ARK..... the last piece to be restored.

Charlie

Whether or not Daniel's 70th week is fulfilled or not is not what I'm referring to.

I have typed it out a few times before so it won't take me long to at least present the idea.

Now if the idea of 7 years to come parallels Daniel so be it. Revelation lays it out all by itself using a bit of logic along with the evidence.

The beast gets 42 months. "The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months." - Rev 13

The two witnesses get 42 months. "And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”" This 1260 days is equivalent to 42 months. (hemera, the period from sunrise to sunset)

The beast kills the two witnesses at some point during his reign so the 42 months of the beast and the witnesses could overlap somewhat. If there is some overlap then the start of the two witnesses 42 months would begin before the beast's 42 months and just by this lengthening the time of the end to more than 42 months. 

The death of the witnesses cannot come at the very end during the Day of the Lord for two reasons: the people of earth won't be partying and sending gifts to one another during God's wrath, and the two witnesses will not be in the wrath of God. That would push the overlap further apart depending on the duration of the wrath of God and the Lamb. 

That wrath is at least some months long per Rev 16. " 14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, go forth  unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

This will take as long as; going to the kings of the earth, and getting the kings and their armies to the battle ground. Just from this we have lengthened the last 3.5 years to 3.5 years+however long it takes to gather the kings. Best guess? A month or two perhaps?

The two witnesses have a job and power. 

5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

From Rev 11 they have power over the earth, the heaven, the water and the people. They can't even be killed.

The beast also gets power. "7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him"

The beast has power over everyone on earth including the saints and not only that everyone will worship him, saints excluded. The beast gets this power at the healing of the deadly head wound. This sets up a conflict between the absolute power of the witnesses and the absolute power of the beast, given by Satan and allowed by God. 

This conflict is resolved by the end the two witnesses ministry and the absolute power of the beast. Both cannot operate at the same time as the beast has power over everyone including the saints, which would include the two witnesses, they are saints of God as well. The only time the beast can kill the witnesses is at the end of their ministry and when he takes power for a full 42 months

So the overlap has a hard end when the beast takes power for 42 months which must then be at the end of the 42 months of the two witnesses. Which means there are two full 42 months periods and ergo, 7 years left to go.

 

 

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

If I remembered where it was I could.

 

Whether or not Daniel's 70th week is fulfilled or not is not what I'm referring to.

I have typed it out a few times before so it won't take me long to at least present the idea.

Now if the idea of 7 years to come parallels Daniel so be it. Revelation lays it out all by itself using a bit of logic along with the evidence.

The beast gets 42 months. "The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months." - Rev 13

The two witnesses get 42 months. "And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”" This 1260 days is equivalent to 42 months. (hemera, the period from sunrise to sunset)

The beast kills the two witnesses at some point during his reign so the 42 months of the beast and the witnesses could overlap somewhat. If there is some overlap then the start of the two witnesses 42 months would begin before the beast's 42 months and just by this lengthening the time of the end to more than 42 months. 

The death of the witnesses cannot come at the very end during the Day of the Lord for two reasons: the people of earth won't be partying and sending gifts to one another during God's wrath, and the two witnesses will not be in the wrath of God. That would push the overlap further apart depending on the duration of the wrath of God and the Lamb. 

That wrath is at least some months long per Rev 16. " 14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, go forth  unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

This will take as long as; going to the kings of the earth, and getting the kings and their armies to the battle ground. Just from this we have lengthened the last 3.5 years to 3.5 years+however long it takes to gather the kings. Best guess? A month or two perhaps?

The two witnesses have a job and power. 

5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

From Rev 11 they have power over the earth, the heaven, the water and the people. They can't even be killed.

The beast also gets power. "7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him"

The beast has power over everyone on earth including the saints and not only that everyone will worship him, saints excluded. The beast gets this power at the healing of the deadly head wound. This sets up a conflict between the absolute power of the witnesses and the absolute power of the beast, given by Satan and allowed by God. 

This conflict is resolved by the end the two witnesses ministry and the absolute power of the beast. Both cannot operate at the same time as the beast has power over everyone including the saints, which would include the two witnesses, they are saints of God as well. The only time the beast can kill the witnesses is at the end of their ministry and when he takes power for a full 42 months

So the overlap has a hard end when the beast takes power for 42 months which must then be at the end of the 42 months of the two witnesses. Which means there are two full 42 months periods and ergo, 7 years left to go.

 

 

Thanks for this... I think I will enjoy studying Revelation... when I complete Daniel.... I believe it will be more difficult to unpack... but like Daniel, there are plenty of folks providing their interpretations!

Daniel was absolutely mind boggling for some time but it finally released its messages and they are quite different than today’s accepted interpretations. 

Now it is time to try and put them all together into a readable commentary... and since I am no writer this may even present a problem of its own to work through... but the heavy lifting is almost over... thank God!!!

 I will be seeking your thoughts on Revelation at the appropriate time, thanks , Charlie 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks for this... I think I will enjoy studying Revelation... when I complete Daniel.... I believe it will be more difficult to unpack... but like Daniel, there are plenty of folks providing their interpretations!

Daniel was absolutely mind boggling for some time but it finally released its messages and they are quite different than today’s accepted interpretations. 

Now it is time to try and put them all together into a readable commentary... and since I am no writer this may even present a problem of its own to work through... but the heavy lifting is almost over... thank God!!!

 I will be seeking your thoughts on Revelation at the appropriate time, thanks , Charlie 

I think Daniel clearly speaks to the same thing.

"Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. 27And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,i but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,j until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him."

This prince cannot be Christ unless His people destroy the sanctuary and the city, and Jesus stops the sacrifice and oblation, places the A of D and is then destroyed.

In Matt 24 Jesus says, "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’" He is relating an occurrence apart from His doing. 

[rdclmn72]

Revelation talks about 3.5 years, a gradual unfolding of the end that culminates in a 5 month invasion, the day of the Lord, and 7 months of cleansing the land by those identifying and burying the dead. The day and year of God's vengeance.