Seven Year Tribulation?

[abcdef]

On 2/18/2021 at 3:49 AM, Diaste said:

Ok, lets say you're right about this. Where is the rest of the prophecies fulfillment? If it's over then when did the signs of Jesus return happen?

Jesus did return at the 67-70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, but it wasn't a resurrection coming.

His "presence" was there as God.

As God, He brought the armies of Rome to destroy the temple and Jerusalem.

No one could destroy the temple, Jerusalem, and Israel, unless God brought them.

The details concerning the "coming" at the 70 AD destruction, are mixed up with the details of the second coming for salvation resur/rapt.

 

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When did He return and when did the gathering of the elect occur?

Matt 24:31, The gathering shown there is the gathering of the people of Israel from the gentile nations to restore Jerusalem.

The trumpet that is blown is the 5th trumpet, the trumpet of "5" separation. (The 10 virgins, 5 were wise, 5 were foolish, they were divided and separated into two groups.)

 

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Are you likening Luke 21:24 to 70 AD? Hmm...The Jews weren't led captive into all nations. They fled. From what I read about the Jews after the war about a million were killed, the Romans kept 95,000 prisoners, and the rest fled as refugees. 

Lk 21:20-24, Some were led captives into all the nations, some fled and some were killed.

95,000 prisoners/captives/slaves, those in Judea fled when Jerusalem was surrounded, and the other mill were killed.

 

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I think there is great deal of difference between refugees and captives so Luke 21:24 doesn't look like a good fit to me for 70 AD. 

Lk 21:20-24, All those things happened in the 70 AD ish time period. 

When it says they they are killed by the sword, consider that they don't use swords anymore. So this can't be the present or future.

 

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But Luke 21:24 is also connected to Luke 21:20-23 as part of the prophecy and all that should have happened in 70 AD and as far as I can tell it isn't recorded anywhere.

The details of the 70 AD destruction are recorded.

Edited February 21, 2021 by abcdef

[Retrobyter]

On 2/15/2021 at 3:36 AM, Diaste said:

Hi,

It that 6-11 months? I apologize...it looks like 6 months and 3.3 days.

But yes, 'great tribulation' is only mentioned as later, after the A of D, yet there is no duration. 

Can we know how long GT lasts?

 

Shalom, Diaste.

Sorry for the early release of this post, but ... YES ... we CAN know how long the Great Tribulation lasts. It started when Yeshua` left the Jews of Jerusalem DESOLATE, fulfilling Daniel 9:27 in part.

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by His sacrificial death), and for the overspreading of abominations (by the Pharisees and Sadducees) he shall make it desolate (Matthew 23), even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the Jews He made desolate).

And, what is this "consummation?" Yeshua` gave us this in ...

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

And, as I've said several times already, this was quoted from Psalm 118:26. 

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

The words of the highlighted sentence in Hebrew are "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." And, I've shown that the first two words in their plural form is found at all the seaports and airports in Israel:

It means "Welcome, Comers!"

So, the consummation is when ISRAEL, particularly the Jews of Jerusalem, can WELCOME the Messiah on YHWH'S authority!

And, Paul said, that's up to US!

Romans 11:26-32 (KJV)

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

It's lasted almost 2,000 years so far! So, when are we going to help make this consummation happen?

Edited February 22, 2021 by Retrobyter
To add the content!

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Sorry for the early release of this post, but ... YES ... we CAN know how long the Great Tribulation lasts. It started when Yeshua` left the Jews of Jerusalem DESOLATE, fulfilling Daniel 9:27 in part.

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by His sacrificial death), and for the overspreading of abominations (by the Pharisees and Sadducees) he shall make it desolate (Matthew 23), even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the Jews He made desolate).

Interesting. Just yesterday I watched a documentary on the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Seems the priests continued the Temple ritual right up until the Tenth Legion started the fire in the Temple.

For 40 years after Jesus' death the Jews offered in the Temple, even with a rent veil. The only thing that stopped the Temple liturgy was Titus and his legions. Even now the Jews have been practicing the Temple offerings and have been for some years.

The spiritual meaning of the Temple and it ancient ritual ended long before 70 AD. You would have thought the rent veil would have given them a clue. I'm ambivalent and I wasn't even there!

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

So, the consummation is when ISRAEL, particularly the Jews of Jerusalem, can WELCOME the Messiah on YHWH'S authority!

And, Paul said, that's up to US!

A video journal I just watched yesterday, I'm serious, was interviewing Jews in Israel about the rebuilding the Temple.  They were asked if they wanted one, when it should be built and who should build it. The similitude is in what you said above. The Jews think that based on their behavior, it has to be goodness and unity, the messiah will come and build the Temple. 

I'm sorry but that Messiah will be a false one. If I catch your drift the I conclude the same thing about the Messiah you present as well. Unless I'm wrong about what you are saying.

My Messiah, King and Lord is coming through a portal in the sky riding a white horse with 10's of thousands of warriors following.  

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by His sacrificial death), and for the overspreading of abominations (by the Pharisees and Sadducees) he shall make it desolate (Matthew 23), even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (the Jews He made desolate).

"

Then after the sixty-two weeksh the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing.

Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. 27And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,i but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,j until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.k”

"

Verse 26 adds a bit of clarity, don't you agree? Messiah is cut off and has nothing. THEN the prince who is to come will confirm a covenant. The direct antecedent to 'he' in v 27 is the 'prince who is to come'.  Jesus didn't put an end to the Temple liturgy in the middle of THE week, or any other week, as the sacrifices still happen today. And when you say the desolate are the Jews aren't you saying that destruction is poured out on them and they are not saved but rather destroyed?

And it was not the prince who destroyed the city and the sanctuary, it was the people he brought with him. From the east and north the Legions that attacked were led by Romans but made of conscripts from the neighboring kingdoms, notably Syria and Parthia. It's been determined by some these Arabs that made up the 10th legion in particular are the ones who started the fire and were overcome by bloodlust and began widespread destruction and slaughter throughout the city.

So no. I don't agree. Jesus speaks about Great Tribulation and nothing in scripture implies a 7 year tribulation or a 2000 year tribulation. I admit times can seem like tribulation and we were promised to have trouble in the world. 

But as far as I know we have not experienced the GT 'such as was not nor ever shall be' and that if those days were not truncated 'there would be no flesh saved'.

There is not one mention of timing for any of it. The fact of tribulation and GT, yes. Timing and duration? No. Can we surmise? Yes.

Is the affectation '7 year Tribulation' pilfered from 'great tribulation'? Probable.

The only 'tribulation' we see immediately surrounding the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the elect is great tribulation, and that occurs between the A of D and the coming of Jesus; less than 3.5 years in duration.

[Retrobyter]

On 2/22/2021 at 5:09 AM, Diaste said:

Interesting. Just yesterday I watched a documentary on the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Seems the priests continued the Temple ritual right up until the Tenth Legion started the fire in the Temple.

For 40 years after Jesus' death the Jews offered in the Temple, even with a rent veil. The only thing that stopped the Temple liturgy was Titus and his legions. Even now the Jews have been practicing the Temple offerings and have been for some years.

The spiritual meaning of the Temple and it ancient ritual ended long before 70 AD. You would have thought the rent veil would have given them a clue. I'm ambivalent and I wasn't even there!

Shalom, Diaste.

Yes, that's the first part of it. The sacrifices they made after they crucified the Son of God were ineffectual. See, without God accepting the sacrifices made, they're nothing more than slaughters.

Thus, when the Lamb of God was Sacrificed, there was no more need of sacrifices, according to the author of Hebrews. This is a partial fulfillment of Daniel 9:27:

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Oh, sure. They still went through the motions, but their sacrifices no longer had the power to do anything. To be justified by God, they would have to accept the TRUE Sacrifice for their sins!

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A video journal I just watched yesterday, I'm serious, was interviewing Jews in Israel about the rebuilding the Temple.  They were asked if they wanted one, when it should be built and who should build it. The similitude is in what you said above. The Jews think that based on their behavior, it has to be goodness and unity, the messiah will come and build the Temple. 

SOME believe that, but others, such as the Zionists, still believe that THEY should build the Temple in ANTICIPATION of the Messiah, just as the Zionists believed that their faithful dedication to the re-establishment of Israel would make the "nation born in a day" and cause "the desert to bloom as a rose!" Thus, we have the nation Israel returned to the Land in and around 1948.

The verses I quoted before from Psalm 118:22-26 have an interesting ending to verse 26:

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now (Hebrew: Yhowshiyah naa' = Greek: hosanna = "Save-us now!") , I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

How would it be possible for them to welcome the Messiah "out of the house of the LORD," if there was no "house of the LORD," the phrase referring to the "TEMPLE?" 

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I'm sorry but that Messiah will be a false one. If I catch your drift the I conclude the same thing about the Messiah you present as well. Unless I'm wrong about what you are saying.

My Messiah, King and Lord is coming through a portal in the sky riding a white horse with 10's of thousands of warriors following.  

"

The Messiah of God, Yeshua`, SHALL be the Messiah who builds the Temple described in Ezekiel. However, there shall also be another Temple PRIOR TO the Messiah's arrival from which they will call for help and welcome His coming! While there is a "Beast" in Revelation and a "man against the Torah" in 2 Thessalonians 2, who desecrates the Temple, yet in the future, it is WRONG to call him "THE Antichrist." "Antichrist" is a belief system that denies the Messiah of God has come in the flesh, according to John in both epistles, 1 John and 2 John. 

Now, about YOUR "Messiah, King and Lord," really? Through a "portal in the sky riding a white horse?" Let's hope that portal isn't too high! Unless He's riding a "Pegasus," that's not very likely. No, there's another way to look at this:

Revelation 19:11-16

11 And I saw heaven opened (Greek: Kai eidon ton ouranon eeneoogmenon = "And I saw the sky having-been-opened-upward"), and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Do you see anywhere where it says that the white horse and its rider came THROUGH the opening in the sky? No, it doesn't say that. The sky "having been opened upward" was allowing the sunbeams to radiate down upon the sight John saw. He followed with "BEHOLD!" or "LOOK!" Then, in the light of the sunbeam, He sees a glistening white horse who was mounted by Faithful (Hebrew: Emuwnaah = "Trustworthy") and True (Hebrew: Omen stemming from aaman [confirm; support] the same as Ameen = "Truth"). It comes from Isaiah 25:1.

He was ALREADY CLOTHED in a "vesture dipped in blood!" He was ALREADY one who "TREADETH THE WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD!" And, He is ALREADY NAMED "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." This is NOT His first appearance!

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Then after the sixty-two weeksh the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing.

Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. 27And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,i but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,j until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.k”

"

Verse 26 adds a bit of clarity, don't you agree? Messiah is cut off and has nothing. THEN the prince who is to come will confirm a covenant. The direct antecedent to 'he' in v 27 is the 'prince who is to come'.  Jesus didn't put an end to the Temple liturgy in the middle of THE week, or any other week, as the sacrifices still happen today. And when you say the desolate are the Jews aren't you saying that destruction is poured out on them and they are not saved but rather destroyed?

And it was not the prince who destroyed the city and the sanctuary, it was the people he brought with him. From the east and north the Legions that attacked were led by Romans but made of conscripts from the neighboring kingdoms, notably Syria and Parthia. It's been determined by some these Arabs that made up the 10th legion in particular are the ones who started the fire and were overcome by bloodlust and began widespread destruction and slaughter throughout the city.

The key word above is "AFTER." ANYTIME "AFTER" the 62 Sevens the Messiah would be cut off but not for Himself. However, the version you chose to use takes liberties with the actual wording of Scripture in its translation. There's a word in Hebrew for "then" meaning "at that time"; it's the word "aaz." It's used in...

Leviticus 26:34 (KJV)

34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.

[It's part of an elaborate "IF ... THEN" statement (or statements) in this passage.]

The Hebrew word "aaz" is NOT found in Daniel 9:24-27 AT ALL!

Instead, as I've said before elsewhere in these forums, the Hebrew phrase translated as "the people of the prince" is "`am nagiyd." It is called a "noun construct state" where the FIRST word is part of the syntax of the sentence but the SECOND word is merely a descriptive word of the first word. It is almost ALWAYS translated with the word "of" in between these words translated into English.

For instance, "ben David" is translated into English as "son of David."

Technically, since the definite articles are not present in the phrase, it should be translated as "people of prince" or "a people of a prince," if the indefinite article makes better sense in the translation.

Anyway, JUST LIKE IN ENGLISH, the second word in the noun construct state is NOT a subject for the sentence. Thus, the pronoun "he" would not refer to that second word. In English, we would say that the noun is an object of the preposition "of." And, as the object of the preposition, it would not participate in the main syntax of the sentence. Therefore, the pronoun "he" would NOT refer to "prince!" One would have to go back farther in the sentence to find the subject of which the "he" would refer. The next singular, masculine noun would be "Messiah" in verse 26.

Therefore, "Messiah" is the antecedent of the incidents of verbs translated with the pronoun "he."

So, Daniel 9:27 should be understood as ...

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations (of those mentioned in Matthew 23) HE (THE MESSIAH) SHALL MAKE IT DESOLATE, EVEN UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION, and that determined (the Great Tribulation) shall be poured upon the desolate (the Jews).

And, that's PRECISELY what we find in Matthew 23:37-39:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 

38 "Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord'".

On 2/22/2021 at 5:09 AM, Diaste said:

So no. I don't agree. Jesus speaks about Great Tribulation and nothing in scripture implies a 7 year tribulation or a 2000 year tribulation. I admit times can seem like tribulation and we were promised to have trouble in the world. 

But as far as I know we have not experienced the GT 'such as was not nor ever shall be' and that if those days were not truncated 'there would be no flesh saved'.

There is not one mention of timing for any of it. The fact of tribulation and GT, yes. Timing and duration? No. Can we surmise? Yes.

Is the affectation '7 year Tribulation' pilfered from 'great tribulation'? Probable.

The only 'tribulation' we see immediately surrounding the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the elect is great tribulation, and that occurs between the A of D and the coming of Jesus; less than 3.5 years in duration.

One will find more than just a single mention of the Tribulation in the Olivet Discourse (which occurs JUST AFTER Matthew 23). Let's just look at Mattityahuw's account (although any true research into the Olivet Discourse should involve ALL THREE Synoptic Gospels):

Matthew 24:4-31 (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, 'I am Christ'; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then shall they deliver you up TO BE AFFLICTED, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let (ye) them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let (ye) him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let (ye) him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ!', or 'there!"; believe (ye) it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold (LOOK!), he is in the desert!'; go (ye) not forth: 'behold (LOOK!), he is in the secret chambers!'; believe (ye) it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 "Immediately after THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

All three of the capitalized words involve the Greek noun "thlipsis," translated as "tribulation," or the Greek verb "thliboo," translated as "to be afflicted."

It's obvious that verses 29-31 are yet to occur in the future, but I've also pointed this out many times before: When Yeshua` is using the words "ye" and "you," which are second-person, plural words, He is talking DIRECTLY to His disciples who were hearing Him that day, LONG before the Gentiles were included!

In other words, this "tribulation" began in the FIRST CENTURY A.D! Also understand that He was talking to those who are JEWS and CHILDREN OF ISRAEL! It's THEIR "affliction," "tribulation," or "persecution" to which He was referring! And, this "persecution" has been occurring since the First Century, in one form or another, for almost 2,000 years now!

It was "shortened" by not allowing the "tribulation" to be a CONSTANT harbinger! Instead, He gave them times of reprieve when they could rebuild and repopulate their numbers. He didn't shorten the time period; He shortened the NUMBER OF DAYS of "tribulation" WITHIN the overall time period. He shortened the TRIBULATION, not the TIME PERIOD!

Why do you think it would be important that their flight not be on a "Sabbath" or a "Shabbat?!" It's because they were not allowed (by their traditions) to travel any farther than a "Sabbath's Day journey" on a "Sabbath!" Can you imagine the dilemma they would face deciding whether to run further? ("Do I save my life, or do I obey God and not do any work of the Sabbath?") And, that moment of indecision might cost them their lives!

It's the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, particularly the JEWS of Jerusalem, who have experienced, and are STILL experiencing, the GT "such as was not nor ever shall be!" What other Tribulation has lasted so long?! That's a GREAT - HUGE - Tribulation!

Edited February 24, 2021 by Retrobyter
fixing a WW error

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yes, that's the first part of it. The sacrifices they made after they crucified the Son of God were ineffectual. See, without God accepting the sacrifices made, they're nothing more than slaughters.

Thus, when the Lamb of God was Sacrificed, there was no more need of sacrifices, according to the author of Hebrews. This is a partial fulfillment of Daniel 9:27:

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Oh, sure. They still went through the motions, but their sacrifices no longer had the power to do anything. To be justified by God, they would have to accept the TRUE Sacrifice for their sins!

In reality it was meaningless liturgy for a long time before Jesus' sacrifice.

The truth is here:

"“Why are you angry,” said the LORD to Cain, “and why has your countenance fallen? 7If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires you,b but you must master it.”"

And in many more statements throughout the OT.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The key word above is "AFTER." ANYTIME "AFTER" the 62 Sevens the Messiah would be cut off but not for Himself. However, the version you chose to use takes liberties with the actual wording of Scripture in its translation. There's a word in Hebrew for "then" meaning "at that time"; it's the word "aaz." It's used in...

Leviticus 26:34 (KJV)

34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.

[It's part of an elaborate "IF ... THEN" statement (or statements) in this passage.]

The Hebrew word "aaz" is NOT found in Daniel 9:24-27 AT ALL!

Instead, as I've said before elsewhere in these forums, the Hebrew phrase translated as "the people of the prince" is "`am nagiyd." It is called a "noun construct state" where the FIRST word is part of the syntax of the sentence but the SECOND word is merely a descriptive word of the first word. It is almost ALWAYS translated with the word "of" in between these words translated into English.

For instance, "ben David" is translated into English as "son of David."

Technically, since the definite articles are not present in the phrase, it should be translated as "people of prince" or "a people of a prince," if the indefinite article makes better sense in the translation.

Anyway, JUST LIKE IN ENGLISH, the second word in the noun construct state is NOT a subject for the sentence. Thus, the pronoun "he" would not refer to that second word. In English, we would say that the noun is an object of the preposition "of." And, as the object of the preposition, it would not participate in the main syntax of the sentence. Therefore, the pronoun "he" would NOT refer to "prince!" One would have to go back farther in the sentence to find the subject of which the "he" would refer. The next singular, masculine noun would be "Messiah" in verse 26.

Therefore, "Messiah" is the antecedent of the incidents of verbs translated with the pronoun "he."

So, Daniel 9:27 should be understood as ...

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations (of those mentioned in Matthew 23) HE (THE MESSIAH) SHALL MAKE IT DESOLATE, EVEN UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION, and that determined (the Great Tribulation) shall be poured upon the desolate (the Jews).

And, that's PRECISELY what we find in Matthew 23:37-39:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 

38 "Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord'".

In a vacuum only. An English lesson means nothing when the evidence is considered. 
"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),"

"So when you see the abomination of desolationa standing where it should not be"

These are literal statements which by your reasoning would place Jesus himself in the Temple in the guise of a detestable thing causing appalling horror to His own people.

Further, in Dan 9:27 Jesus would, by your view, confirm an already existing covenant for a period of 7 years only to break that covenant midway through the term. Do you have precedent for this kind of behavior by our Lord?

I see people break covenant with God. The Jews did it. Christians do it. Then they are punished for that break. 

 

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

One will find more than just a single mention of the Tribulation in the Olivet Discourse (which occurs JUST AFTER Matthew 23). Let's just look at Mattityahuw's account (although any true research into the Olivet Discourse should involve ALL THREE Synoptic Gospels):

We don't know this. Jesus exited the Temple then later was seated on the Mount of Olives. That is about a half hour walk from the Temple. We don't know if it was a half hour later, a day, a week or 6 months before or after. No one can say Matt 24 is a strict chronology. Surely it has some chronology but to say it's chronological from 1-28 is more like a pipe dream. 

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Matthew 24:4-31 (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, 'I am Christ'; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then shall they deliver you up TO BE AFFLICTED, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let (ye) them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let (ye) him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let (ye) him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ!', or 'there!"; believe (ye) it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold (LOOK!), he is in the desert!'; go (ye) not forth: 'behold (LOOK!), he is in the secret chambers!'; believe (ye) it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 "Immediately after THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

All three of the capitalized words involve the Greek noun "thlipsis," translated as "tribulation," or the Greek verb "thliboo," translated as "to be afflicted."

It's obvious that verses 29-31 are yet to occur in the future, but I've also pointed this out many times before: When Yeshua` is using the words "ye" and "you," which are second-person, plural words, He is talking DIRECTLY to His disciples who were hearing Him that day, LONG before the Gentiles were included!

Sorry. I can't find this segregation. In fact I find no such segregation by race in the mind of our Father from Genesis to Revelation.  Segregation by faith and belief in God, yes. Any other type? No. 

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

In other words, this "tribulation" began in the FIRST CENTURY A.D! Also understand that He was talking to those who are JEWS and CHILDREN OF ISRAEL! It's THEIR "affliction," "tribulation," or "persecution" to which He was referring! And, this "persecution" has been occurring since the First Century, in one form or another, for almost 2,000 years now!

It was "shortened" by not allowing the "tribulation" to be a CONSTANT harbinger! Instead, He gave them times of reprieve when they could rebuild and repopulate their numbers. He didn't shorten the time period; He shortened the NUMBER OF DAYS of "tribulation" WITHIN the overall time period. He shortened the TRIBULATION, not the TIME PERIOD!

Why do you think it would be important that their flight not be on a "Sabbath" or a "Shabbat?!" It's because they were not allowed (by their traditions) to travel any farther than a "Sabbath's Day journey" on a "Sabbath!" Can you imagine the dilemma they would face deciding whether to run further? ("Do I save my life, or do I obey God and not do any work of the Sabbath?") And, that moment of indecision might cost them their lives!

It's the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, particularly the JEWS of Jerusalem, who have experienced, and are STILL experiencing, the GT "such as was not nor ever shall be!" What other Tribulation has lasted so long?! That's a GREAT - HUGE - Tribulation!

 

Well, prove the A of D as in Matt 24 and Mark 13 and as described by Daniel in 9, 11 and 12 occurred in the first century. The A of D is the portent of GT in this context.

Jerusalem is a hodgepodge of race, ethnicity and faith this very day. Does it make any sense Jesus would only be speaking to Jews concerning this  moment in future history? In fact the preamble to this terrifying time concludes it's the ones called by the name of Jesus that will be persecuted for His name.

“See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

 

9Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

The Jews do not care about this as their Messiah is an earthly king from the line of David. Even Ben Shapiro thinks he could be that messiah as the qualifications for the role are two: A man from the line of David.

No. Jesus was talking to any Spirit filled believer from any ethnicity who will be present. I would imagine the reference to flight on the sabbath is a reference to the strict adherence to the Talmud in Sabbath observation. What do the orthodoxy get as a travel distance on the Sabbath. 100 feet? Bummer for them.

 

 

[Leonardo Von]

Quote

Seven Year Tribulation?

Well, for Jesus' believers, there will be seven years of tribulation, being that, the last three and a half years will be the Great Tribulation (Dan 12:1).

[Justin Adams]

4 minutes ago, Leonardo Von said:

Well, for Jesus' believers, there will be seven years of tribulation, being that, the last three and a half years will be the Great Tribulation (Dan 12:1).

This is pre-mil dispensationalist and entirely FALSE. 

[Leonardo Von]

5 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

This is pre-mil dispensationalist and entirely FALSE.

I don't stick up for any theological doctrine. I stand up for the Holy Scripture only.

[Justin Adams]

2 minutes ago, Leonardo Von said:

I don't stick up for any theological doctrine. I stand up for the Holy Scripture only.

If that is the case, then agree that Revelation is over and Daniel also. All completed in the first century except for the final Day of The Lord (Ez 38). 

The final day is the Resurrection and end of life as we know it now. No fancy dispensational jargon, no MOB, no 7 year anything and no pre-mil rapture.

Rev 19 and 20 are the same end time event of Ez38. No pause and no future milenium. We are in the millennium now between the two advents.

Yeshua is reigning and ruling right now and as His Kings and Priests we are ruling with Him. All has been put under the feet of Him Who reigns forever and ever over EVERYTHING.

That is plain scripture as read. No interpretations, no twisting and no dogma via a false eschatology. Take scriptures as they are written, often in flamboyant 'prophet speak' but nevertheless exactly correct.

[Selah7]

On 2/14/2021 at 9:15 AM, Diaste said:

Is it really 7 years?

I don't see it.

Well, I would say 3.5 years but now, I’m convinced that Jesus has shortened the great tribulation to five months—the actual length of the locust season.

Revelation 9:1-5

9 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the [a]bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months.  …