Applying Ocaam's Razor to the Creation/Evolution Discussion

[Guest kingdombrat]

19 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

That is man's way, not God's way.    He created a world where everything appeared according to His will from the initial creation.

But it's not just how we think God and His Will went about Creation, it's about the final product of God's Creation that explains to us what He did.   When we see Galileo use PATTERNS, we see the Bible uses FORMED [which is a MOLD because we know humans are called CLAY], and then we look at all humans, look at all Species and see they reproduce offspring that look just like them [we see a Machine Shop Mold mass producing the same thing over and over.

 

Just in that simplistic concept, we see there is no room for Evolution, because Evolution is when the MOLD FORMS something than what the MOLD is.   And God explains just how that would be IMPOSSIBLE!

19 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

No.  He had a common genetic heritage for animals, from which all species were (and are being) created according to His will.  Hence, we "looks like" isn't the demonstration of His creation.  It's how common structures with the same genes, are modified to new uses within the rules that He created for this world.

Yep, why each one is its OWN FROM or MOLD!

19 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

But they don't all look alike.  They vary a lot.  Yet, they all form according to his laws, for which no design was required.   Everything works according to gravity and momentum.   From such simple rules, He made a universe as complex and amazing as this one. 

They don't look alike bu have enough of the SAME FEATURES to know they are the SAME Species.

 

[The Barbarian]

On 4/23/2021 at 10:17 AM, Guest kingdombrat said:

Just in that simplistic concept, we see there is no room for Evolution

Since we observe it going on around us, reality tosses that assumption.   Remember what evolution is.

On 4/23/2021 at 10:17 AM, Guest kingdombrat said:

Yep, why each one is its OWN FROM or MOLD!

That assumption fails when we look at genes.   They confirm the information we get from the fossil record, homologies, and other sources.   And we know genetic comparisons show common descent, because we can test that idea using individuals of known descent.

 

[Guest]

On 2/25/2021 at 1:56 PM, Riverwalker said:

Ocaam's Razor Simplified:  is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the smallest number of assumptions is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.

Creation:

God Did it

No argument there.

On 2/25/2021 at 1:56 PM, Riverwalker said:

Origin (Without God):

• All of everything banged to existence for no purpose cause or reason
• Everything arranged itself  in an orderly fashion using gravity, that also appeared for no purpose cause or reason
• Then life erupted spontaneously where there was no life, no organic material anywhere, again for no purpose cause or reason
• The life became more and more advanced finding enough other life to feed on to survive, for no purpose cause or reason
• Finally 200,000 years ago modern man* appeared on the scene, but it took him 195,000 years to learn that if you planted seed it grew, that fire could be controlled and that a branch can be used as a lever and a round wheel as a pulley (Simple Machines) and the Egyptian Civilization was born

Here's where your argument falls apart.  You are assuming the Big Bang wasn't created by God.  There's a wealth of support for the Big Bang Theory.  It's not at all how you portray and Darwinism need not be a part of it.  With the understanding to the Gap Theory or the Day-Age Theory of Genesis Darwin need not be a part of the answer.

[Riverwalker]

8 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

No argument there.

Here's where your argument falls apart.  You are assuming the Big Bang wasn't created by God.  There's a wealth of support for the Big Bang Theory.  It's not at all how you portray and Darwinism need not be a part of it.  With the understanding to the Gap Theory or the Day-Age Theory of Genesis Darwin need not be a part of the answer.

Here is my Counter Argument

³ Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 

 

⁶ Then God said, “Let there be a ^[c]firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” ⁷ Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 

⁹ Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.

¹⁴ Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 

(Creating the sun and the moon and stars 3 DAYS after he created light)

and so on

 

God: I spoke into existence and it was done in 7 days

Man: it blew up from a HUGE BALL of matter and Energy that no one has a clue  and it BILLIONS of years to come in order.

BTW the only "evidence" that the big bang has is the doppler red shift. Which could be caused by any number of things. Not nearly enough dark matter has discovered

I am defaulting to God here

[one.opinion]

5 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

BTW the only "evidence" that the big bang has is the doppler red shift. Which could be caused by any number of things.

You can read more about evidence for the Big Bang here.

https://www.uwa.edu.au/study/-/media/Faculties/Science/Docs/Evidence-for-the-Big-Bang.pdf
 

You mentioned “any number of things” could explain consistent red shift across the universe, but didn’t provide one. Do you have evidence for an alternative explanation?

[Sparks]

8 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

Not nearly enough dark matter has discovered

Not any dark matter was discovered.  It's a theory.   Scientists made a $74 million dollar dark matter detector, a few years ago.  It spotted absolutely no dark matter.   I hear they got a grant to build a bigger detector for an additional $74 million. 

Want to place a bet on what it finds?

2 hours ago, one.opinion said:

You mentioned “any number of things” could explain consistent red shift across the universe, but didn’t provide one. Do you have evidence for an alternative explanation?

God said he stretched out the heavens.  I wonder if that was it?  Wouldn't it have been cool to see God do that? 

[Riverwalker]

3 hours ago, one.opinion said:

You can read more about evidence for the Big Bang here.

https://www.uwa.edu.au/study/-/media/Faculties/Science/Docs/Evidence-for-the-Big-Bang.pdf
 

You mentioned “any number of things” could explain consistent red shift across the universe, but didn’t provide one. Do you have evidence for an alternative explanation?

Yes

Genesis 1

[one.opinion]

5 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

Yes

Genesis 1

Genesis 1 doesn’t explain red shift.

[Sparks]

2 hours ago, one.opinion said:

Genesis 1 doesn’t explain red shift.

Isaiah 42:5 (ESV)

5 Thus says God, the Lord,
who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and what comes from it,
who gives breath to the people on it
and spirit to those who walk in it:

Isaiah 40:22 (ESV)

It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

Isaiah 45:12 (ESV)

I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.

Isaiah 48:13 (ESV)

My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

Isaiah 51:13 (ESV)

and have forgotten the LORD, your Maker, who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth, and you fear continually all the day because of the wrath of the oppressor, when he sets himself to destroy? And where is the wrath of the oppressor?

Jeremiah 10:12 (ESV)

It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.

Jeremiah 51:15 (ESV)

“It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.

Zechariah 12:1 (ESV)

The oracle of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

[Riverwalker]

4 hours ago, one.opinion said:

Genesis 1 doesn’t explain red shift.

We don't invent things to EXPLAIN what exists.  First Big Mistake

Here is the explanation of Red Shift.  Things are moving. To try and put any other explanation behind that, or to use to to prop up your favorite theory is wrong