Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Where do you see the following that John sees (in the interlude between the 6th and 7th Seals) picking back up?  Note from Revelation 7...

1 And after these things (what happened with the opening of the 6th Seal) I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, TILL we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

I don't see this as following chronologically from Ch. 6 based on language. There is plenty of evidence the event of the gathering happens here immediately after the imminent wrath is depicted in Rev 6:12-17 and just before Rev 7:9-17.

So the sealing also occurs at that time. Rev 7 appears to be a seamless narrative from Rev 6:12 to 7:17. I'm convinced this is in order but am open to new info that would either cement that belief or clarify it, or change my perceptions. After many years there is so far nothing that makes a wholesale change in that conclusion.

But I know what you are getting at. You propose the 4 angels holding back the winds are four angels of the trumps that are given to hurt the earth and sea and trees. From that you have evidence to conclude the trumps cannot sound till after the 7th seal opens. 

But there is this:

And the second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it turned to blood like that of the dead, and every living thing in the sea died.

4And the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and springs of water, and they turned to blood. 5And I heard the angel of the waters say:

8Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was given power to scorch the people with fire. 9And the people were scorched by intense heat, and they cursed the name of God, who had authority over these plagues; yet they did not repent and give Him glory.

And that is compared with:

Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,a and many people died from the bitter waters.

In both cases 3 angels harm the land and sea and trees, not four. Is see this as an increase in intensity from trumps to bowls with the bowls being wrath the trumps as God pleading with man to repent before wrath. 

I don't see the need for all 4 angels of Rev 7 to be involved in harming the earth, the sea and the trees but it would be a more tidy thing, easier to compare, but it's not necessary. 

Point being you associate the angels of trumps 1-3 with the 4 from Rev 7 when it can just as rationally be said those same angels can be associated with the angels of bowls 2-4. I know you'll argue that scorching men with fire isn't the same as the 1st trump but, that would have to mean you have some divine insight the fire of the 4th bowl discriminates between mankind and flora. Maybe. I can't say. It's not said that's the case, it's not said it isn't.

This isn't something that changes the chronology for me. The trump of God, the last trump and the loud trump are all associated with Jesus arrival, and the coming wrath, and the gathering, so they are all the same trump. The 7th trump is also the arrival of Jesus and the coming of wrath.

Then the conclusion still follows from the evidence of Matt 24, 2 Thess 2, Rev 6:12-17 and Rev 7:9-17 and 11:15-19; the 7th trump of Revelation is the trump of God, the loud trumpet and the last trump.

 

 

 

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Yes.  If you look again, I said, "I would recommend that you again consider the opening post (and the whole) of my thread, The Chronological Order of the Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).  Of course, I still recommend that you do that.  One of these days, when you see what I'm showing, you are not going to be able to unsee it.  Then, you won't need those "3 or 4 large walls" you talked about below "to create an accurate timeline."  The Revelation has structure that is much, much, more Divine than that.  I'm confident that you will be on your way to seeing it before very much longer.

You said:

On 3/7/2020 at 1:02 PM, not an echo said:

No back and forth, no overlap, no repeating of anything, just chronological information laid out as simply as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10.

Correct me if I didn't get it right but I'm pretty sure you think the last week doesn't begin till the 6th seal. Is that right? Or was it the 7th trump? 

How is this possible "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled," but the week hasn't begun yet? 

 

 

 

 

[JoeCanada]

9 hours ago, not an echo said:

On 8/4/2022 at 8:40 AM, JoeCanada said:

Regarding...."The silence when He opened the 7th seal"

Could it be that Jesus just "left the building?"

Look at Psa 65:1-4:

There will be silence before You, and praise in Zion, O God,
And to You the vow will be performed.
O You who hear prayer,
To You all men come.
Iniquities prevail against me;
As for our transgressions, You forgive them.
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.

Perhaps.....

This is the actual moment (the 1/2 hour) when Jesus descends and brings the saints home.

Expand  

Hello Joe,

Concerning your conclusion, why would you conclude this instead of what John recorded that he saw next?

not an echo,

I didn't actually conclude this. I merely offered another 'what if' interpretation.

That's why I said 'Could it be'.....

But, looking at Rev 7:2..... 'And I saw another angel ascending from the rising sun, having the seal of the living God....'

Is it possible that this angel is the Lord Himself? I think it could be .....

And..... it would then make sense that the '1/2 hr silence in heaven', along with 'praise in Zion' on earth,  because Jesus has left heaven and has Himself sealed the 144,000.....(the reason for praise in Zion) along with the resurrecting's of the dead saints and  the rapture of the living saints.

Rev 7 is a parenthetical section. Is it chronological with the rest of the narrative of chapter 6 and 8? Maybe...maybe not. The other parenthetical chapters are not chronological with the preceding narrative.... like chapters 12, 13, 14....17,18

These are just things to consider. 

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's not what Jesus said. This is what He said:

15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

From Matt 24:15-20 we don't see Daniel's 70th week. We see the warning to flee immediately and the dire circumstances for the religious and physically compromised. 

Then Jesus says, "For at that time..." Is that at the time of misery for the religious and pregnant? At the time of flight to the mountains? Both of those are a result of the A of D.

Jesus then labels that time people are told to flee quickly and immediately as well as the lament for the nursing mothers and the pregnant; great tribulation. 

I don't know what you think here...where is the mention of Daniel's 70th week? How is it the A of D is the midpoint of the week, then after that GT, but you claim it's the start of the week??

It isn't obvious the order is A of D then GT when Jesus specifies this is the order?

15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’...

For at that time there will be great tribulation... 

Midpoint, then GT. No other scenario is possible according to Jesus.

No such thing as a 7 year tribulation

The two witnesses are in testimony 1260 days and the beast 42 months, this represents 3.5 years in a "Parallel" time frame

Edited August 14, 2022 by truth7t7

[not an echo]

On 8/6/2022 at 6:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/5/2022 at 1:36 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Just to clarify a little further...

Concerning your third paragraph, first of all, I've never indicated that I think we are going to be seeing "terrifying horses running rampant across the earth",  if what you are talking about is the horses that the horsemen of the first four seals are riding.  Now, if our spiritual realm blinders were removed, we might all be surprised at what we would see---kinda like with Elisha's servant (II Kg. 7:15-17).

It is your proposition the 4 horseman have been riding since the 1st century.

Why do I even try anymore? You don't even own your own premises.

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your question and after statement, I don't understand what you are talking about.  My position remains the same, in accord with the opening posts of my four threads on the subject.  I guess I took it for granted that you would understand that I have always been talking about the spiritual realm activity of the four horsemen.  Again, as I said in what you quoted of me, "if our spiritual realm blinders were removed, we might all be surprised at what we would see---kinda like with Elisha's servant (II Kg. 7:15-17).

The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/)

The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250725-the-second-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-red-horse/)

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/)

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/)

On 8/6/2022 at 6:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/5/2022 at 1:36 AM, not an echo said:

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

During the period of the Day of the Lord, Daniel's 70th Week will take place, which Jesus begins to speak to in the next verse...

There is zero proof the 6th seal begins the DOTL and it's the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. A of D comes before GT, comes before the DOTL. In order as follows:

Just to clarify, it has never been my position that Daniel's 70th Week begins with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Rather, it has always been my position that the period of the Day of the Lord begins with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Borrowing from your words, there is zero proof that Daniel's 70th Week has actually begun until after John sees the "little book open" in Revelation 10.  This is the little book of Daniel (cp. Rev. 10:2 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  Quite appropriately---quite Divinely in fact!---the little book of Daniel is seen "open" when the world's stage is completely reset for the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th Week.  Then, beginning with Revelation 11:1-3, we see the first evidences that Daniel's 70th Week has begun indeed.

As Revelation 11 opens, just because "the temple of God" is seen and "worship" is going on, this does not mean that it is God who is being worshiped.  No, this is the Antichrist being worshiped!  Paul gives us some commentary on this, in II Thessalonians 2...

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Christ's Second Advent) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Moreover, Jesus spoke concerning this.  Consider afresh from Matthew 24...

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth [i.e., meaning the little book of Daniel], let him understand:)

On 8/6/2022 at 6:03 AM, Diaste said:

No getting around this: A of D, GT, The Sign, His appearance, the loud trump, the gathering. 

No GT before the A of D, no Sign before GT and no gathering before GT. GT has not begun.

As I have often said, your (and all others who do it) persistent use of "GT" clouds the understanding.  There have been many times of great tribulation for God's children, there is great tribulation now, and there is going to continue to be great tribulation.  But, one of these days, during the time of Daniel's 70th Week, there is going to be "great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).  I speak to this in my thread, Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).

On 8/6/2022 at 6:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/5/2022 at 1:36 AM, not an echo said:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

So just skip the parts that disprove your dogma?

I'm not skipping anything.  I never skip anything, unless it's the riding again of a merry-go-round.  Hey, and I still like a good merry-go-round---especially with children!   But, even then, not all the time.  There's just so much more to see and enjoy.

So again, I'm not skipping anything.  But, I am becoming curious.  It seems that you keep suggesting that Jesus' Olivet Discourse is in a strict chronological order.  Is this your position?

On 8/6/2022 at 6:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/5/2022 at 1:36 AM, not an echo said:

Continuing still in Matthew 24, the capstone of Daniel's 70th Week will be Christ's Second Coming, which Jesus speaks to in the following verses...

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, He is in the desert; go not forth: behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Important to realize is that at this point, Jesus turns His attention to the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (vss. 29-31), which corresponds to the opening of the 6th Seal.  Moreover, this is the focus of His attention throughout the rest of the chapter.  Concerning your statement, "it can't all happen in one generation",  that is true.  But, all who are a part of the generation that is alive at the time of the rapture will be a part of the generation that can see "all these things" (vs. 33).  How in?  Just consider if the rapture happens today.  Thinking of those who are left who will ultimately come to Christ (rather than take the mark), they will be a part of the same generation that has seen the same things we have---all of which connects with what Jesus warned of in verses 5-14.  Also, these will be a part of the same generation that sees the rise of the A of D and everything related to Daniel's 70th Week.  Also, these will be a part of the same generation that sees everything that takes place with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Said another way, the generation that is alive at the time of the rapture will "see all these things" and not age 10 years before Christ's Second Advent.  Now, no generation that was alive in the 2nd century saw all these things.  Neither any generation in the 9th century, the 17th century, or our own century---so far.

You're truncating the prophecy to fit your needs.

No, I'm merely endeavoring to understand everything in accord with the fullness of what has been revealed to us in all of Scripture---which is a must.

On 8/6/2022 at 6:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/5/2022 at 1:36 AM, not an echo said:

Note that for your position, what Jesus says concerning "This generation" (vs. 34) would be quite an odd statement.  Why?  What He just got through saying concerning "all these things" (vs. 33) would have to include what He also just spoke of in verses 29-31.  Do you see it? 

Yeah. Pretty obvious. It's not an epiphany. It's what I have been saying all along. In the narrative, if you can follow along, all of it happens before the loud trump and the gathering, perfectly in sync with all end of the age prophecy;

You say you "have been saying this all along"?  I'm not really recalling that.  But, if you have been, then I am thinking that you are not seeing what you are saying.

On 8/6/2022 at 6:03 AM, Diaste said:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c 

and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming

on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 

31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and

they will gather His elect

from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The bold parts are the order of events. The 6th seal coincides with 29-30. Verse 31 is the 7th trumpet. I get you don't like it but it's written right there. The order is plain, your scenario is not.

If I'm understanding your take on the above, how do you have the gathering taking place "in such an hour as ye think not" (Matt. 24:44)?  I have some other questions too, but hopefully your answer to this will help me to see a little clearer what your position is.

On 8/6/2022 at 6:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/5/2022 at 1:36 AM, not an echo said:

Verses 29-31 connect with the opening of the 6th Seal, and you have the 7th Trumpet and Christ's Second Advent happening concurrent/successive with this.  Remember what Jesus says in verse 32?  "Now learn a parable of the fig tree;  When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"  Question:  Why would Jesus be talking in terms of a "generation" if the rapture is going to happen concurrent/successive with His Second Advent?

Asking the same question again and again and expecting a different answer is a terrible waste. I have gone over the 'generation' idea and the successive/concurrence of the 6th seal and 7th trump. I get you reject it. So be it.

I haven't asked this question "again and again" any more than you have asked your questions again and again.   You have the matter of a time element that goes counter to your position and you haven't dealt with that, as I recall.  Perhaps I've missed it, or didn't get your point as you meant it.

On 8/6/2022 at 6:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/5/2022 at 1:36 AM, not an echo said:

You make the statement, "You keep saying Matt 24:4-8 has nothing to do with the end of the age..."  When did I ever say that?  That has never been my position.  What Jesus speaks to His disciples of in the first section of His discourse (Matt. 24:4-14) will continue and/or hold true right up until the beginning of the Day of the Lord (Matt. 24:14), which could begin today.  Note that if it does, its beginning will be preceded just a little bit by "a great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31), which Paul refers to as the Trump of God.  It will be some months later before Daniel's 70th Week begins (Matt. 24:15;  Rev. 11:1;  II Thess. 2:3-4).  Further, it will be at the mid-point before the 7th Trumpet will be sounded. 

It is your position even if you won't admit it. You have half the prophecy in the last days separated from the end of the age which is characterized by Jesus arrival and the gathering. You say again and again the 4 horseman have been riding since the 1st century. This is tantamount to cleaving the prophecy in two, the halves unrelated.

My position is clarified by the following illustrations.  The first one is of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, rightly divided.  The second is of The Revelation, which substantiates the basic particulars of the division.  For simplicity, the second illustration only shows Matthew's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse...

Also related to my position on the above is the opening post of my thread, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).

On 8/6/2022 at 6:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/5/2022 at 1:36 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning the disciples' questions, just because they asked their questions according to their curiosity and concept of things, Jesus was not bound in any way to answer their questions according to the same criteria.  It was often very interesting the way Jesus answered questions that were asked of Him (e.g., Mk. 10:17-22;  Jn. 4:9-10).  The important thing is His reply, not the exactness of it to the question(s) posed.

The nadir of absurdity. He answered the questions concisely and to the point. Your reaching and it's getting tedious. What contortions you put yourself through to avoid the truth!

The disciples' first question was, "Tell us, when shall these things be?" (Matt. 24:3).  Where is it that Jesus answered their first question, as you said, "concisely and to the point"?  Or, as I said, "according to their curiosity and concept of things"?

And, what's with your last statement?  That's not a very nice thing to say.

[Diaste]

On 8/13/2022 at 6:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

In this particular case, if you belonged to one of those goat nations (and one day soon, we might), then you are going to get the SAME SENTENCE as your leadership does!

Fundamentally that's wildly unjust. So if a collective schism of a radical splinter of leadership goes full anti-semite, the entire country, the whole nation, every individual would be guilty? That's extreme.

If USA leadership stopped sending military aid to Israel, for example, and some Israelis died because of it, and even though half of Congress could have opposed the lack of funding, then the whole nation is guilty?

So if the leadership of a country never funded Christian missions, but individuals collectively kept funding Christian missions, then the ones who did support Christians in far away places would be guilty anyway?

I don't think so.

 

On 8/13/2022 at 6:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

Matthew 25:40 (KJV)

40 "And the King shall answer and say unto them,

"'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.' "

Now, look at verse 40 in the Greek:

40 "καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ βασιλεὺς ἐρεῖ αὐτοῖς,

"'Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐφ’ ὅσον ἐποιήσατε ἑνὶ τούτων τῶν ἀδελφῶν μου τῶν ἐλαχίστων, ἐμοὶ ἐποιήσατε.'"

Transliterated, this is ...

40 "kai apokritheis ho Basileus erei autois,

"'Ameen legoo humin, ef' hoson epoieesate heni toutoon toon adelfoon mou toon elachistoon, emoi epoieesate.' "

A word-for-word translation is ...

40 "and answering, the King will-say to-them,

"'Truly I-say to-you, upon as-much-as you-have-done-[it] to-one of-these the brothers of-me to-the least/smallest/weakest, to-me you-have-done-[it].'"

It wasn't JUST something done to the smallest or weakest brother, it was to ANY brother, EVEN to the smallest or weakest! They weren't just guilty of doing it to those who might be considered the King's greatest heroes, it was doing it to ANY ONE of His people, whoever he or she might be, not just "one of the little ones," as though He was talking about the children!

You are correct here but it still changes nothing in my mind. 

On 8/13/2022 at 6:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

Any more, perhaps. At one time in history, our United States of America WAS considered a Christian nation! The leadership took the responsibility gravely as Christians and were proud to do so for their Almighty God! They were not ashamed to be called Christians!

The same can be said for England. At one time it was considered a Christian nation because its ROYALTY were considered Christian! They may have been weak as Christians for one reason or another, but their NATION was considered Christian!

Labels are just a way to organize into categories and are usually based on stereotype, prejudice and bigotry. But I think both the above examples are hopeful at best. 

On 8/13/2022 at 6:18 AM, Retrobyter said:

THAT is the reason why they were nationalistic and expanded their empires around the world! They were doing what they thought was right and necessary to make the whole world Christian!

You're right here, with some exceptions. One should not forget that "tares" will be sown among the "wheat" even in the Master's earthly Kingdom.

And yet, this is CRUCIAL to the understanding of this passage! One is not justified by God on the merits of anything he or she has done! One is justified by GOD for His OWN reasons and purposes! If one submits to YHWH God and begs God for His mercy and grace because he or she recognizes that he or she is a sinner in great need, THEN God bestows His justification and DECLARES him or her "righteous" on the merits of His Son's Sacrificial Death! The exchange is made, and the Son of God takes our sin while we get His righteousness, or rather, the righteousness of God within the Messiah. (2 Corinthians 12). This is what it means to be "reconciled with God."

Again, it's a whole other topic. But I do agree with your continued emphasis on the individual. 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 8/13/2022 at 12:25 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

No, sir! He is dealing with NATIONS, here, NOT individuals! It's not about the actions of a few or the one; it's about the actions of the MAJORITY! As far as individuals "paying for their own sins," they'll do that, too, LATER; HOWEVER, here in this passage of Scripture, Yeshua` is dealing with the NATIONAL attitudes of the general populations! 

Sure. In some cases that's true. Iran for instance. But I can guarantee not every individual in Iran feels the same way. And I can also say with great assurance there are believers in Jesus in Iran. I don't think they will be judged along with the radical Jew hating leadership.

On 8/13/2022 at 12:25 AM, Retrobyter said:

When a population chants "Death to Israel!" don't you think that is a NATIONAL problem? When a people's children are taught in their schools that "Israel is the little Satan, and the USA is the big Satan," that's a NATIONAL problem! When a nation teaches its children that it's okay to hate Jews and other non-believers in Allah, and kill them when they have a chance, that's a NATIONAL problem! When a nation would rather take the heads off of the Christians within its borders than to help people out, that's a NATIONAL problem! When a people can't or WON'T stand up to the leadership of a tyrannical dictator, and that dictator DEMANDS that all the churches within his country be burned down to the ground with the members locked inside, that's a NATIONAL problem!

This is prejudicial. So every Iranian is the same because they live in Iran? Sadly ridiculous sentiment.

On 8/13/2022 at 12:25 AM, Retrobyter said:

People are generally "sheep" in the sense that we FOLLOW what we are told and taught, and very seldom does one stand up and say, "That's not right!" They don't like to "make waves." They don't want to "rock the boat." They want to live their lives as they have always done, and weather whatever storms may come. If some fanatics stand up and say, "Israel is evil! We should just get rid of all the Jews!" and so many people are on board with that, and you're a lone voice that might rather say, "No! That's not right!" Will the average person stand up against the majority and risk getting blown away with a gun shot, if they speak up and disagree? No, most cower under the general consensus and accept what's considered the "right answer." Some will even join the majority, rather than risk their lives or the lives of their family members!

You're not wrong. But some will stand up. Gonna judge them the same as the rest? That would be unjust. God is just so that isn't happening.

On 8/13/2022 at 12:25 AM, Retrobyter said:

Please, look at it again with an OPEN mind this time.

 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your question and after statement, I don't understand what you are talking about.  My position remains the same, in accord with the opening posts of my four threads on the subject.  I guess I took it for granted that you would understand that I have always been talking about the spiritual realm activity of the four horsemen.  Again, as I said in what you quoted of me, "if our spiritual realm blinders were removed, we might all be surprised at what we would see---kinda like with Elisha's servant (II Kg. 7:15-17).

The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/)

The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250725-the-second-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-red-horse/)

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/)

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/)

I know. That allows for the interpretation to be applied anywhere at any time. If it's spiritual it's not manifest on earth. I'm convinced the riders will be manifest and they are not some representation of spiritual activity.

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

Just to clarify, it has never been my position that Daniel's 70th Week begins with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Rather, it has always been my position that the period of the Day of the Lord begins with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Borrowing from your words, there is zero proof that Daniel's 70th Week has actually begun until after John sees the "little book open" in Revelation 10.  This is the little book of Daniel (cp. Rev. 10:2 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  Quite appropriately---quite Divinely in fact!---the little book of Daniel is seen "open" when the world's stage is completely reset for the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th Week.  Then, beginning with Revelation 11:1-3, we see the first evidences that Daniel's 70th Week has begun indeed.

I don't see how that's possible given the chronology you present. Ch. 10 follows Ch. 9 and it is said in Ch. 10,

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled"

Then in Ch.9 the 5th and 6th trump have sounded and in Ch. 10 the 7th is about to sound and in fact does in Ch. 11. So the 70th week begins after the 5th and 6th trump when the 7th trump sounds? 

Don't you say the trumps follow the seals? How is the mystery of God finished in Ch. 10 at the same time the trumps are finished sounding and yet the week has not yet begun? 

So the whole week is left to run it's course but only the bowls are left to be poured out?

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth [i.e., meaning the little book of Daniel], let him understand:)

No it doesn't mean the little book. If it does there needs to be some proof. Rev 10 doesn't have any proof this:

But you, Daniel, shut up these words and seal the book until the time of the end. Many will roam to and fro, and knowledge will increase.”

 is the same as this:

“Go, take the small scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel standing on the sea and on the land.”

If you have actual proof of this beyond a sketchy association please post it.

 

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

As I have often said, your (and all others who do it) persistent use of "GT" clouds the understanding.  There have been many times of great tribulation for God's children, there is great tribulation now, and there is going to continue to be great tribulation.  But, one of these days, during the time of Daniel's 70th Week, there is going to be "great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).  I speak to this in my thread, Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).

It clouds your understanding. Messes up the works, a wrench in the gears, brings down the house of cards.

You can't get past the fact the A of D is the immediate lead in to GT as Jesus spoke of in Matt 24. Since there has been no A of D since 167 BC then there can be no GT as Jesus described. 

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand)...

For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

For at that time when people flee from the A of D and all it's connotations then there will be GT. 

Show me the A of D that has occurred between the Ascension and today and we can go from there.

I know you cannot. It's why I see the strident denial the A of D is the factor ushering in GT.

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm not skipping anything.  I never skip anything, unless it's the riding again of a merry-go-round.  Hey, and I still like a good merry-go-round---especially with children!   But, even then, not all the time.  There's just so much more to see and enjoy.

You do. 

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

So again, I'm not skipping anything.  But, I am becoming curious.  It seems that you keep suggesting that Jesus' Olivet Discourse is in a strict chronological order.  Is this your position?

I think I have said it's the outline of the end. There is clearly a chronology. An exact timeline fitting all the pieces unforced is not something I have looked at. What I do see that is perfectly chronological is the events Jesus said would happen in order:

A of D. GT. The Sign. The mourning of the nations. His Arrival. The sounding of the trump and the flight of Angels. The gathering. In that order.

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

You say you "have been saying this all along"?  I'm not really recalling that.  But, if you have been, then I am thinking that you are not seeing what you are saying.

I'm not surprised you don't recall what I say.

"All these things..." are all the things from the disciples question to the statement, "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

If I'm understanding your take on the above, how do you have the gathering taking place "in such an hour as ye think not" (Matt. 24:44)?  I have some other questions too, but hopefully your answer to this will help me to see a little clearer what your position is.

Yes. "Such an hour..." Which doesn't preclude day, month, year or any and all prophetic events. 

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

I haven't asked this question "again and again" any more than you have asked your questions again and again.   You have the matter of a time element that goes counter to your position and you haven't dealt with that, as I recall.  Perhaps I've missed it, or didn't get your point as you meant it.

Yes you have. It gets reworded but it's the same question. One I have answered time and again. 

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

My position is clarified by the following illustrations.  The first one is of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, rightly divided.  The second is of The Revelation, which substantiates the basic particulars of the division.  For simplicity, the second illustration only shows Matthew's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse...

This is the slow acting, insidious poison of dispensationalism. Let it go. 

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

The disciples' first question was, "Tell us, when shall these things be?" (Matt. 24:3).  Where is it that Jesus answered their first question, as you said, "concisely and to the point"?  Or, as I said, "according to their curiosity and concept of things"?

What? Are you looking for a date and time? Minutes of the meeting? A video?

As I have said it's about events, not dates. If you can't see that then you should seek the Spirit of Truth.

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

And, what's with your last statement?  That's not a very nice thing to say.

No one likes the truth. As a rule people like the smooth, generous lie. It's why we have Joel Osteens, Paula Whites, Joyce Meyers, Copelands, et al.,  and the same reason the same political vipers get elected cycle after cycle. 

It's why the Jews hated and sought the death of Jesus and the Disciples. 

Pretrib is falsehood and a veil obscuring the truth.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Sure. In some cases that's true. Iran for instance. But I can guarantee not every individual in Iran feels the same way. And I can also say with great assurance there are believers in Jesus in Iran. I don't think they will be judged along with the radical Jew hating leadership.

This is prejudicial. So every Iranian is the same because they live in Iran? Sadly ridiculous sentiment.

Shalom, Diaste.

When God recently closed the border to Afghanistan through His servant President Joe Biden (take that any way you'd like), what happened to the believers in Jesus in Afghanistan? And, yes, there were some! It's not "prejudicial"; it's JUDICIAL!

The sheep/goats trial happens at the BEGINNING of the Messiah's reign, not at the end! These nations are standing before the Messiah of God who becomes Israel's King. They've just had a war in which the Messiah won all of His country back from outsiders attempting to use His Land for their own purposes and enslaving and killing His people! Psalm 2:1-12 is within this time frame, too!

He is PROTECTING His Land and His People! Now, if Iranians or Afghanistans want to leave their countries and seek assylum at a vassal kingdom to Israel's Kingdom, then the Master will AID them in their travels!

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

You're not wrong. But some will stand up. Gonna judge them the same as the rest? That would be unjust. God is just so that isn't happening.

Yep. It's not that God isn't being just to these people who stand up, but rather that Yeshua` the Messiah of God is keeping those who hate His People at arm's length!

There still will be a Great White Throne Judgment and a consignment to the Lake of Fire AT THE END of the first 1,000 years of the Messiah's reign, but it doesn't happen AT THE BEGINNING!

[WilliamL]

On 8/12/2022 at 3:46 AM, Diaste said:

So now apply that to Rev 11:18 using the same verb form, since it is the same, in the context of Rev 11:15-18. Wrath is either present or just about to commence. 

Then, if wrath has come in Rev 11:18 at the 7th trump, and it is imminent in Rev 6:17 at the 6th seal, then the 6th seal and the 7th trump arrive at the nexus of wrath; the imminence[6th seal] and the fact of the onset[7th trump]. 

The Day of Wrath commences at the 6th Seal, because the Day came/is come.

By the time of the 7th Trumpet, the God's Wrath has been taking place throughout Trumpets 1-6. The wrath came, and is still taking place.

The Day of Wrath concludes at the 7th Seal:

Rev. 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them [their Bowls, vs. 7] the wrath of God is complete.