Can immersion only baptism survive close scrutiny?

[Whyme]

If baptism were necessary, why didn't God send Paul to baptize? 

[Dead Orthodoxy]

1 hour ago, Whyme said:

If baptism were necessary, why didn't God send Paul to baptize? 

This question has been asked and answered a bazillion times on the internet.  Your question raises a possible point of an internal contradiction in Scripture. 

 

If Jesus did not send Paul to baptize, then why did he baptize Crispus, Gaius and the household of Stephanas? Was Paul sinning when he baptized them?  Was Paul lying when he told the Corinthians Jesus told him not to baptize and he did anyway? 

This is why there are so many good articles on the internet resolving this apparent contradiction.   Below are some links.  Why not study them and then share your thoughts on WCF.

 

https://evidenceforchristianity.org/why-did-paul-say-he-was-not-sent-to-baptize-if-baptism-is-important-to-salvation/

https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/christ-did-not-send-me-to-baptize

http://www.bibleanswers.ie/short-bible-studies/56-baptism/248-christ-sent-me-not-to-baptise

[Whyme]

3 minutes ago, Dead Orthodoxy said:

This question has been asked and answered a bazillion times on the internet.  Your question raises a possible point of an internal contradiction in Scripture. 

 

 

 

If Jesus did not send Paul to baptize, then why did he baptize Crispus, Gaius and the household of Stephanas? Was Paul sinning when he baptized them?  Was Paul lying when he told the Corinthians Jesus told him not to baptize and he did anyway? 

 

This is why there are so many good articles on the internet resolving this apparent contradiction.   Below are some links.  Why not study them and then share your thoughts on WCF.

 

 

https://evidenceforchristianity.org/why-did-paul-say-he-was-not-sent-to-baptize-if-baptism-is-important-to-salvation/

 

https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/christ-did-not-send-me-to-baptize

 

http://www.bibleanswers.ie/short-bible-studies/56-baptism/248-christ-sent-me-not-to-baptise

 

 

 

Jesus baptises with fire. 

[Whyme]

5 minutes ago, Dead Orthodoxy said:

This question has been asked and answered a bazillion times on the internet.  Your question raises a possible point of an internal contradiction in Scripture. 

 

 

 

If Jesus did not send Paul to baptize, then why did he baptize Crispus, Gaius and the household of Stephanas? Was Paul sinning when he baptized them?  Was Paul lying when he told the Corinthians Jesus told him not to baptize and he did anyway? 

 

This is why there are so many good articles on the internet resolving this apparent contradiction.   Below are some links.  Why not study them and then share your thoughts on WCF.

 

 

https://evidenceforchristianity.org/why-did-paul-say-he-was-not-sent-to-baptize-if-baptism-is-important-to-salvation/

 

https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/christ-did-not-send-me-to-baptize

 

http://www.bibleanswers.ie/short-bible-studies/56-baptism/248-christ-sent-me-not-to-baptise

 

 

 

Why was Timothy circumcised? 

[David1701]

On 3/25/2021 at 6:18 PM, Dead Orthodoxy said:

In reading the 449 comments of Regenerated-Adult “Does water baptism preceded Regeneration” (Feb 1, 2021) it is very evident that immersion only baptism seems to be the preferred mode of baptism within the WCF community.  I have made a bulletized listing.

• Water baptism by full immersion is fundamental to salvation.

   

• Even sprinkling isn't mentioned while immersion IS mentioned. 

   

• Water baptism by full immersion is a sacrament

   

• Even Jesus himself underwent full immersion baptism

   

• water baptism by full immersion

   

• Of coarse water immersion baptism doesn't save anyone even though the bible says we are to be water immersed in baptism for salvation.

   

• having been buried with him in baptism, this is a clear unambiguous reference to water baptism by full immersion. Going under the water equates to burial (Romans 6) One is not buried in any sense when baptised in the Holy Spirit. 

   

• Of coarse water immersion baptism doesn't save anyone even though the bible says we are to be water immersed in baptism for salvation.

   

• Water immersion baptism is a believers first beautiful act of obediance

   

• Water immersion baptism is NEVER a work or a ritual, as some call it.

I am of the opinion, that immersion only baptism CANNOT be definitively established as the only mode of baptism in the New Testament.  I am not saying immersion baptism wasn’t practiced in the New Testament nor am I saying immersion baptisms are invalid.   All immersion baptisms are valid.  What I am objecting to is the necessity of immersion baptism.

 

So I will every few days or so, examine a particular text of Scripture and post it.  And I will gently and honorably defend my thesis of objecting to necessity of immersion baptism.

 

In my next post, I will be defining terms for better clarification where I am coming from.

 

 

 

 

•  

Quote

What I am objecting to is the necessity of immersion baptism.

The problem here is that you are using a tautology, while making it appear that you are using different ideas.

The Greek word transliterated (not translated) "baptism" means "immersion", so your sentence really reads, "What I am objecting to is the necessity of immersion immersion.".  It was sometimes used figuratively, but the literal meaning is to submerge completely, like dipping cloth in dye.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by David1701

[Waggles]

To fulfill all righteousness - to do all that is necessary before God - therefore as an obedient disciple it behoves me to follow the 

example given and the commandment of my God and Saviour - and thus I too was baptised confessing my faith and calling on the name of the Lord 

for the forgiveness of my past sins; my old life. 

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Amen, Amen, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[Dead Orthodoxy]

3 hours ago, David1701 said:

The problem here is that you are using a tautology, while making it appear that you are using different ideas.

The Greek word transliterated (not translated) "baptism" means "immersion", so your sentence really reads, "What I am objecting to is the necessity of immersion immersion.".  It was sometimes used figuratively, but the literal meaning is to submerge completely, like dipping cloth in dye.

 

“To baptize ” in Hellenistic Greek is a factitive verb.   A factitive verb expresses the fact of wetting without implying or specifying the mode to be employed or any “state of being” wet, either permanent or temporary.   Common examples immersionists will give citing Hellenistic literature would be drowned person, a sinking ship, a shipwreck, and the brining of pickles. However, these examples are not exactly identical to what Christian immersion baptism is.   ·      A drowned person is in a permanent state or condition in the water and cannot egress from the water. ·      A sinking ship is in the temporary state of floating, but will soon be submerged permanently. ·      A shipwreck by definition is in a permanent condition on the ocean floor. ·      Cucumbers are in a brining solution for weeks, but then come out.   Hellenism also gives a much wider meaning to the term baptism, as it conveys the idea of dipping, plunging in any medium or substance.  The myth of Odysseus and Polyphemus the Cyclops is an example.  Odysseus is trapped in a cave by Polyphemus.  So Odysseus gets Polyphemus drunk. And while the Cyclops is sleeping, Odysseus takes his staff and plunges (baptizes) it into his single eye and escapes.   Christian immersion baptism is bi-directional. In many cases, Hellenism portrays baptism is uni-directional.  The Hellenistic Greek gives much more latitude in meaning and is seen as fluid in its application. NEW TESTAMENT DEVELOPMENT OF BATIZO Before the NT was written, the Jews first took the Hellenistic word “baptism” out of its original Greek context and used it for the name of a Jewish ritual for washing.  We see this in Luke 11:38 and Mark 7:2-4. The Greek word BAPTIZO is translated as “to wash” in English.  Contextually, this is neither bi-directional or uni-directional immersion.  A change of meaning occurs in Luke and Mark concerning BAPTIZO. Then Jesus takes this concept and adds God’s true name to baptism in the Great Commission.  Paul then continues to expound this “wash” motif as a synonym for baptism in passages Eph. 5:26, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5, and I Cor. 6:11.

[Waggles]

Baptism, Baptist, Baptize - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Baptism, Baptist, Baptize

[ A-1,Noun,G908, baptisma ]
baptism," consisting of the processes of immersion, submersion and emergence (from bapto, "to dip"), is used
(a) of John's "baptism,"
(b) of Christian "baptism," See B. below;
(c) of the overwhelming afflictions and judgments to which the Lord voluntarily submitted on the cross, e.g., Luke 12:50;
(d) of the sufferings His followers would experience, not of a vicarious character, but in fellowship with the sufferings of their Master. Some mss. have the word in Matthew 20:22-Matthew 20:23; it is used in Mark 10:38-Mark 10:39, with this meaning.

[ B-1,Verb,G907, baptizo ]
"to baptize," primarily a frequentative form of bapto, "to dip," was used among the Greeks to signify the dyeing of a garment, or the drawing of water by dipping a vessel into another, etc. Plutarchus uses it of the drawing of wine by dipping the cup into the bowl (Alexis, 67) and Plato, metaphorically, of being overwhelmed with questions (Euthydemus, 277 D).

It is used in the NT in Luke 11:38 of washing oneself (as in 2 Kings 5:14, "dipped himself," Sept.); See also Isaiah 21:4, lit., "lawlessness overwhelms me." In the early chapters of the four Gospels and in Acts 1:5; Acts 11:16; Acts 19:4, it is used of the rite performed by John the Baptist who called upon the people to repent that they might receive remission of sins. Those who obeyed came "confessing their sins," thus acknowledging their unfitness to be in the Messiah's coming kingdom. Distinct form this is the "baptism" enjoined by Christ, Matthew 28:19, a "baptism" to be undergone by believers, thus witnessing to their identification with Him in death, burial and resurrection, e.g., Acts 19:5; Romans 6:3-Romans 6:4; 1 Corinthians 1:13-17; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12. The phrase in Matthew 28:19, "batizing them into the Name" (RV; cp. Acts 8:16, RV), would indicate that the "baptized" person was closely bound to, or became the property of, the one into whose name he was "batized."

In Acts 22:16 it is used in the Middle Voice, in the command given to Saul of Tarsus, "arise and be baptize," the significance of the Middle Voice form being "get thyself baptized." The experience of those who were in the ark at the time of the Flood was a figure or type of the facts of spiritual death, burial, and resurrection, Christian "baptism" being an antitupon, "a corresponding type," a "like figure," 1 Peter 3:21. Likewise the nation of Israel was figuratively baptized when made to pass through the Red Sea under the cloud, 1 Corinthians 10:2. The verb is used metaphorically also in two distinct senses: firstly, of "baptism" by the Holy Spirit, which took place on the Day of Pentecost; secondly, of the calamity which would come upon the nation of the Jews, a "baptism" of the fire of Divine judgment for rejection of the will and word of God, Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16.

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Dead Orthodoxy said:

“To baptize ” in Hellenistic Greek is a factitive verb.       A factitive verb expresses the fact of wetting without implying or specifying the mode to be employed or any “state of being” wet, either permanent or temporary.       Common examples immersionists will give citing Hellenistic literature would be drowned person, a sinking ship, a shipwreck, and the brining of pickles. However, these examples are not exactly identical to what Christian immersion baptism is.       ·      A drowned person is in a permanent state or condition in the water and cannot egress from the water.   ·      A sinking ship is in the temporary state of floating, but will soon be submerged permanently.   ·      A shipwreck by definition is in a permanent condition on the ocean floor.   ·      Cucumbers are in a brining solution for weeks, but then come out.       Hellenism also gives a much wider meaning to the term baptism, as it conveys the idea of dipping, plunging in any medium or substance.  The myth of Odysseus and Polyphemus the Cyclops is an example.  Odysseus is trapped in a cave by Polyphemus.  So Odysseus gets Polyphemus drunk. And while the Cyclops is sleeping, Odysseus takes his staff and plunges (baptizes) it into his single eye and escapes.       Christian immersion baptism is bi-directional. In many cases, Hellenism portrays baptism is uni-directional.  The Hellenistic Greek gives much more latitude in meaning and is seen as fluid in its application.   NEW TESTAMENT DEVELOPMENT OF BATIZO   Before the NT was written, the Jews first took the Hellenistic word “baptism” out of its original Greek context and used it for the name of a Jewish ritual for washing.  We see this in Luke 11:38 and Mark 7:2-4. The Greek word BAPTIZO is translated as “to wash” in English.  Contextually, this is neither bi-directional or uni-directional immersion.  A change of meaning occurs in Luke and Mark concerning BAPTIZO.   Then Jesus takes this concept and adds God’s true name to baptism in the Great Commission.    Paul then continues to expound this “wash” motif as a synonym for baptism in passages Eph. 5:26, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5, and I Cor. 6:11.

Waggles beat me to it in quoting a proper, biblical definition of baptizo.  See the previous post.

 

[Waggles]

1Peter 3:17 For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God’s will, than for doing wrong. 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.