How were Moses and the Elders able to see and eat with the God of Israel?

[debrakay]

Sometimes I study the word and run across a part of scripture I've never read before or read and skimmed over without much thought.  I was stopped during my current reading of Exodus and hope there are others who can give me their understanding of the following:

Exodus 24:9-11 - Then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel climbed up the mountain. There they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there seemed to be a surface of brilliant blue lapis lazuli, as clear as the sky itself. And though these nobles of Israel gazed upon God, he did not destroy them. In fact, they ate a covenant meal, eating and drinking in his presence!

Here we have 74 men who see and dine with God even though other scripture says man cannot see God and live. 

Exodus 33:20 (ESV)  But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”

John 1:18 (KJV) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I understand that God can say and do whatever He pleases at any time He pleases and it seems that He was pleased to have a meal and fellowship with these Elders at this time.  I also believe that the Father can appear in whatever form He wants and needs to take in order to meet with people.  My thought is that He came in the form of Christ at this time to meet with these Elders and to also give them a glimpse of what Moses had hearing and seeing.  I would love to hear thoughts from my more learned friends on this scripture in Exodus 24.

 

 

[Justin Adams]

9 minutes ago, debrakay said:

Moses had hearing and seeing

The 'Angel of the Lord' and the pre-extant Yeshua can be seen as 'the Word' in the Tanakh (OT). He is often present with the Father. Read the Gideon account and the Jeremiah and Samuel accounts. They were both in the Burning Bush episode as well.

[appy]

I usually don't direct people to "got questions" web pages but concerning your question it has a nice explanation that is easy to understand.  And yes the following is a copy/paste from there.

What occurred in the passage is called an epiphany.

An epiphany is, generally speaking, a revelation. Beyond that, there are three different definitions for the word epiphany. Capitalized, the word Epiphany refers to a Christian feast day, observed primarily in the Eastern churches (the Balkans, Eastern Europe, Asia Minor, the Middle East, and Northeastern Africa). It occurs on January 6 and commemorates the visit of the Magi to the Christ Child and the revelation of God the Son as a human being.

A second definition of epiphany is “an appearance or manifestation, especially of a divine being.” Theophanies and Christophanies are types of epiphanies. A theophany is a manifestation of God in the Bible that is tangible to the human senses. In its most restrictive sense, it is a visible appearance of God in the Old Testament period, often, but not always, in human form. Some Bible commentators believe that, whenever someone received a visit from “the angel of the Lord,” this was, in fact, the pre-incarnate Christ. These appearances can be seen in Genesis 16:7–14; Genesis 22:11–18; Judges 5:23; 2 Kings 19:35; and other passages. While there are no indisputable Christophanies in the Old Testament, every theophany wherein God takes on human form foreshadows the Incarnation, when God took the form of a man to live among us as Emmanuel, “God with us” (Matthew 1:23).

A third definition of epiphany is “a usually sudden manifestation or perception of the essential nature or meaning of something, or an intuitive grasp of reality through something (such as an event) usually simple and striking.” It is also defined as “an illuminating discovery, realization, or disclosure or a revealing scene or moment.” For the Christian, the ultimate epiphany is the realization of our need for Christ as Savior and Lord. Many people come to Christ as a result of a traumatic event such as an accident or serious illness. They have an epiphany about the tenuousness of life and the reality of eternity. Others have a quiet epiphany in which the Spirit speaks in a small, still voice, wooing them to the Savior. However it happens, all Christians have some sort of epiphany about the reality of God, sin, heaven, hell, eternity, and the work of Christ on the cross on our behalf. We respond to the epiphany by repenting of sin and accepting Christ as Savior.

 

[debrakay]

On 4/20/2021 at 12:14 PM, Justin Adams said:

The 'Angel of the Lord' and the pre-extant Yeshua can be seen as 'the Word' in the Tanakh (OT). He is often present with the Father. Read the Gideon account and the Jeremiah and Samuel accounts. They were both in the Burning Bush episode as well.

I understand scripture that speaks of the "Angel of the Lord" encounters.  These are the created angels and messengers that the Father sends or uses to communicate with and assist humans. This specific encounter in Exodus says, "There they saw the God of Israel." I do not believe there is any comparison to "the God of Israel" and "an Angel of the Lord" in regards to this scripture. God manifested himself in some kind of form that these human men could see him with their own eyes.  They gazed upon him.  They were able to eat and drink with him.  This was a physical encounter with God the Father or God the Son. 

[Justin Adams]

Just now, debrakay said:

I understand scripture that speaks of the "Angel of the Lord" encounters.  These are the created angels and messengers that the Father sends or uses to communicate with and assist humans. This specific encounter in Exodus says, "There they saw the God of Israel." I do not believe there is any comparison to "the God of Israel" and "an Angel of the Lord" in regards to this scripture. God manifested himself in some kind of form that these human men could see him with their own eyes.  They gazed upon him.  They were able to eat and drink with him.  This was a physical encounter with God the Father or God the Son. 

Angel of Yahweh. Often the English translations obscure the Malaki Of the Lord. It is the pre-extant Christ.

The word Angel found numerous times in the scriptures of the bible refers to a heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans on Earth, in other words a messenger of God. There is a difference between an angel and the Angel of the Lord, The Angel of the Lord is the only angel appearing continually throughout the old testament referring to himself as the Lord and God in the first person, while the other angels mentioned in the scripture reference to the Lord God as a hallowed third person always humbling themselves and not accepting any type of glory.

Genesis 16:7–14. The angel of the Lord appears to Hagar. The angel speaks as God himself in the first person, and in verse 13 Hagar identifies "the LORD that spake unto her" as "Thou God seest me".

Genesis 22:11–15. The angel of the Lord appears to Abraham and refers to himself as God in the first person.

Exodus 3:2–4. The angel of the Lord appears to Moses in a flame in verse 2, and God speaks to Moses from the flame in verse 4, both instances referring to himself in the first person.

Numbers 22:22–38. The angel of the Lord meets the prophet Balaam on the road. In verse 38, Balaam identifies the angel who spoke to him as delivering the word of God.

Judges 2:1–3. An angel of the Lord appears to Israel.

Judges 6:11–23. An angel of the Lord appears to Gideon, and in verse 22 Gideon fears for his life because he has seen an angel of the Lord face to face.

Judges 13:3–22. The angel of the Lord appears to Manoah and his wife and, in verse 16, tells them to offer to the LORD if they are to make an offering ("And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah [...] if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD."). Later Manoah thought he and his wife will die for they "have seen God"

Zechariah 1:12. The angel of the Lord pleads with the Lord to have mercy on Jerusalem and the cities of Judah.

Zechariah 3:4. The angel of the Lord takes away the sin of the high priest Joshua.

The Greek translation of the Old Testament known as the Septuagint translates the Hebrew phrase מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה as ἄγγελος Κυρίου, "angel of the Lord" or as ὁ ἄγγελος Κυρίου, "the angel of the Lord". "Owing to the Hebrew idiom, this may mean no more than 'an angel of God', and the Septuagint renders it with or without the article at will."

The KJV and NKJV capitalize "Angel" in the Old Testament references to "the Angel of the Lord", while using lower-case "angel" in the Old Testament references to "an angel of the Lord" (and in the New Testament references). Most versions, including NASB, RSV, ESV, etc., do not capitalize "angel" in the mentions of "angel of the Lord".

[HAZARD]

 John 6:46, Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 

Greek, horao, meaning here to comprehend fully or understand with the mind; to see truth fully. It is used in this sense in many places (John 8:38; 14:9; 15:24; 1 John 3:6). 

Greek, horato, like our English seen, means to see with the eyes and also see with the mind. That it means here to comprehend fully or understand is clear from the fact that many men have seen God with the eyes (Gen. 18:2, 33; 32:24-30; Ex. 24:10; 33:11; Josh. 5:13; Isa. 6; Ez. 1:26-28; Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-6; Acts 7:56-59; Rev. 4:2-5; 5:1-7).

[HAZARD]

Seventy four elders of Israel had a banquet with God in Sinai Exodus 24:9-11 Exodus 24:9, Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
   
V, 10, And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
   
v, 11, And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Joshua and all Israel saw God with a sword in His hand Josh, 5:13-15;
 Joshua 5:13, And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
   
V, 14, And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
   
V, 15, And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
Job 42:5,  I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Isaiah also saw God;
Isaiah 6:1-13, In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his1 train filled the temple.
   
V, 2, Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
   
V, 3, And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
   
Isiah 6: V, 4, And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
V, 5, Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Amos saw God;
 Amos 9:I,  saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

They all saw God standing on the ground, sitting on thrones, and having bodily parts like man. Ezekiel saw God on a chariot and describes Him as having an "appearance of a man" with loins and the upper and lower parts of a body like a man (Ezek. 1:26-28; 10:1, 20; 40:3).

Daniel saw both God the Father and the Son of man as two separate beings at the same time and the same place. God was on a throne and had on white clothes, and His hair was white. The Son of man also had a body, had clothes on, and hair on His head (Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-6).

Stephen saw both God and Christ at the same time and place with the same eyes (Acts 7:56-59).

[other one]

On 4/20/2021 at 2:02 PM, debrakay said:

Sometimes I study the word and run across a part of scripture I've never read before or read and skimmed over without much thought.  I was stopped during my current reading of Exodus and hope there are others who can give me their understanding of the following:

I think the answer is within looking into the trinity:::

Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy
of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was
under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it
were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the
children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat
and drink.
KJV
John 6:44-46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent
me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in
the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore
that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not
that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath
seen the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.
Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from
Him.
So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of is not what that
the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the Old Testament.
Looking further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All
things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the
light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There
was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a
witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might
believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that
Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.
KJV
John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a
devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man
keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than
our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom
makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is
nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is
your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should
say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him,
and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he
saw it, and was glad.
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel
interfaced with in the Old Testament days. Jesus in this form was with
the Father from the beginning.
It seems to me that the people of the Old Testament days were not aware
of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he
existed in before he became flesh.
Further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with
God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a
servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in
fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted
him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name
of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in
earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father
worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the Old Testament
times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the
Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the
Father on earth.
Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that
did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only
thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only
as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the
fleshly body.
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that
I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the
very works' sake.
KJV
John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as
thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in
us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory
which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as
we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in
one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved
them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou
hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory,
which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of
the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I
have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I
have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love
wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for
the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the
Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the
Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man
came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so
in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies
under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he
hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are
put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then
shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and
authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus
will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to
Him........ The Father.
I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He
was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father
after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over
all and giving it to the Father.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are
offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the
world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be
that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods
many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom
are all things, and we by him.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But to us, there is but one God, The Father of whom all things
came from......
And one Lord, Jesus whom we call the Christ, through which all things
came including us.
And we have the Holy Spirit which was sent to us from the Father at the
request of Jesus.
Interestingly, all three are one in thought, one in purpose, and one in
action. We can't interface with the Father without being indwelt by
the Holy Spirit, and we can't have the Holy Spirit without the
sacrifice and request of Jesus, and we couldn't have had Jesus without
the Father asking Him to do what he has done for us.
You have to have all three or none. And thus they are one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It was not the Father that they were eating with, it was Jesus/Yahweh.    So no man has ever seen the Father except for the one who came from him....   Yahweh/Jesus.  

[Michael37]

On 4/21/2021 at 7:02 AM, debrakay said:

Sometimes I study the word and run across a part of scripture I've never read before or read and skimmed over without much thought.  I was stopped during my current reading of Exodus and hope there are others who can give me their understanding of the following:

Exodus 24:9-11 - Then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel climbed up the mountain. There they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there seemed to be a surface of brilliant blue lapis lazuli, as clear as the sky itself. And though these nobles of Israel gazed upon God, he did not destroy them. In fact, they ate a covenant meal, eating and drinking in his presence!

Here we have 74 men who see and dine with God even though other scripture says man cannot see God and live. 

Exodus 33:20 (ESV)  But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”

John 1:18 (KJV) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I understand that God can say and do whatever He pleases at any time He pleases and it seems that He was pleased to have a meal and fellowship with these Elders at this time.  I also believe that the Father can appear in whatever form He wants and needs to take in order to meet with people.  My thought is that He came in the form of Christ at this time to meet with these Elders and to also give them a glimpse of what Moses had hearing and seeing.  I would love to hear thoughts from my more learned friends on this scripture in Exodus 24.

I like the answer that the Believer's Bible Commentary gives:

The explanation is that while God in His unveiled glory is a consuming fire which would vaporize anyone looking at Him, yet He can reveal Himself in the form of a man, an angel, or a glory cloud (Deu_5:24) which a person could see and still live.

[Billiards Ball]

On 4/20/2021 at 3:02 PM, debrakay said:

Sometimes I study the word and run across a part of scripture I've never read before or read and skimmed over without much thought.  I was stopped during my current reading of Exodus and hope there are others who can give me their understanding of the following:

Exodus 24:9-11 - Then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel climbed up the mountain. There they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there seemed to be a surface of brilliant blue lapis lazuli, as clear as the sky itself. And though these nobles of Israel gazed upon God, he did not destroy them. In fact, they ate a covenant meal, eating and drinking in his presence!

Here we have 74 men who see and dine with God even though other scripture says man cannot see God and live. 

Exodus 33:20 (ESV)  But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”

John 1:18 (KJV) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I understand that God can say and do whatever He pleases at any time He pleases and it seems that He was pleased to have a meal and fellowship with these Elders at this time.  I also believe that the Father can appear in whatever form He wants and needs to take in order to meet with people.  My thought is that He came in the form of Christ at this time to meet with these Elders and to also give them a glimpse of what Moses had hearing and seeing.  I would love to hear thoughts from my more learned friends on this scripture in Exodus 24.

 

 

They could have also seen His feet or footstool, with glory covering him above His feet.