80% of Christians Do Not Hold to a PreTrib Rapture

[Montana Marv]

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Two "comings," but only one Parousia. If you don't (or, refuse to) know the difference between these two words, you'll never be able to understand the End Times.

And yes, if one cannot believe that God the Father is the ONLY one who knows the timing of the Bridegroom coming for His Bride (Harpozo).  Can one then really understand the end times.  You say Post Trib or near to that time.  Yet you quote Scripture to support your theory, when there is no such Scripture.  The Son, the Word, Jesus Christ does not know when this event will happen.  Yet who draws believers to His Son, but God the Father (John 6:44).  The determining factor is God the Father, not the Scriptures.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[TheBlade]

On 6/1/2021 at 1:45 PM, WilliamL said:

There is no New Testament passage whatsoever that speaks of a 7-year Tribulation, or even alludes to one. There is no New Testament passage whatsoever that mentions any length for the Trib.

Hey I think one could almost say that about PRE MID POST trip haha. Not sure why you said this. I've heard 7 Years or 3 1/2 years for over 50 years now.  Not saying this is true ok Lets see 7 weeks is what 49 years  a week is 7 years and 70 weeks is.. a 490. Something with 483 years leaves 7 years. Something that Israel didn't fully pay. We need to remember this has always been about Israel. So some think believers get caught up then it/he that holds back the lawless one is taken out of the way.. never says gone. Since the Church they say is gone this is why the Antichrist can have power over the Saints. Something I have to admit he could not have right now.. we have ALL Power ALL authority over him. Thats what POST don't talk about. If the Antichrist was just man then.. ok but he's not just man. Yet God gives him power over the Saints? The JESUS in you? Something I wonder about .. blah blah blah

So Israel rebuilds the temple blah blah blah. But there are some in another camp that believe those days are gone and its only going to get better. 

[Diaste]

On 6/1/2021 at 1:45 PM, WilliamL said:

There is no New Testament passage whatsoever that speaks of a 7-year Tribulation, or even alludes to one. There is no New Testament passage whatsoever that mentions any length for the Trib.

This is  interesting. Others beside you have proposed this and since I found the argument to have merit I went and looked to see if it was accurate or not. 

I did not find a direct statement anywhere. In fact other than Dan 9 there isn't any reference to a 7 year period at the end of the age. The whole case for a 7 year left over yet to be fulfilled time is based on;

From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah,g the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.

26Then after the sixty-two weeksh the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing.

hence one week of years is left. Then we have the one week covenant which has some evil act perpetrated in the midst(not necessarily the midpoint) and viola! A 7 year tribulation. But the NT does have a 7 year period in Revelation and it's based on the two witnesses (2W's) and their prophesied 42 month ministry.

I may have brought this up in the past but hear me out.

Relevant are Rev 13:5-7 and 11:3. These two periods do not overlap.

If the beast has the power to overcome the saints as in Rev 13 and Rev 12 then he has the power to overcome the witnesses as well. It's not much but this is the starting point.

Another point is the clearly defined time of 42 months for the power, authority and war of the beast against the saints. Without doubt Jesus returns during the time of the power of the beast as the plagues are quite specific, and in the case of the 5th bowl it's specific to the throne of the beast and his kingdom. So at the time of the 5th bowl, which is the wrath of God and the Lamb, the beast still has both a throne and a kingdom therefore this bowl occurs within the 42 month reign of the beast.

We know this is the wrath of God as the bowls are called that, " “Go, pour out on the earth the seven bowls of God’s wrath.”" 

In light of this the witnesses cannot be present at this time, during whatever part of the beast's 42 month allotted time wrath begins and is poured out. This would push back the end of the ministry of the 2W's to before wrath begins. Now within the clearly defined time of the beast of 42 months there is some overlap of the 2W's campaign. But the end of their time comes before wrath extending the beginning of their 1260 days to before the time the beast is granted his 42 months; which we all envision as the A of D when:

"He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

And,

The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.

7Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast

And,

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand)"

So there remains the argument for at least a partial overlap of the 42 months of the beast and the 1260 days of the 2W's. But just in this the 42 months is already extended by an indeterminate length of time as we don't know when exactly wrath begins, we only know the saints and the 2W's are not in it.

Then there is this;

"When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified. 9For three and a half days all peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will view their bodies and will not permit them to be laid in a tomb. 10And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them."

Striking to me is the merrymaking; "And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts" I hope we could agree this is not happening during the 7 bowls. But it could take place right before wrath begins as I can see that objection raised. But that doesn't work either as the beginning of the day of wrath is the great unknown. If the death of the 2W's and and the 3 day celebration happened just before wrath we could know the day of wrath, which is not possible.

Next will be a likely catalyst for another objection.

From what I see the beast is not going to tolerate the 2W's during his time of power. In fact the beast will not tolerate the people of God at all and will expect the worship of all on the earth as it is written:

"Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast"

At this point of the onset of the beast's 42 months he gets the power to overcome the saints (hagios, holy ones) of which the 2W's are very much identified with. This warring and overcoming of the sacred ones would include the 2W's. If the time of the 2W's precisely overlapped the 42 months of the beast they would have to be killed at the very end of the 42 months when wrath is in full effect, then a three day fiesta, or in the case of partial overlap they would be killed and 3 days later wrath, both are insensitive to the full evidence in scripture of the beast's reign and the wrath of God, within which no saints are included.

It's true the 2W's are granted special protection and power; "If anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouths and devours their enemies. In this way, anyone who wants to harm them must be killed. 6These witnesses have power to shut the sky so that no rain will fall during the days of their prophecy, and power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish." but it's a limited time and ends when their ministry is over as is seen when the beast "that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them".

This waging war and overcoming looks so similar to

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

and...

"the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them"

...that's it's no doubt in the same time frame as the end of the 2W's ministry, which would be within moments of the midpoint at the start of the beast's 42 months.

One scenario is left and that is the 2W's are killed by the beast when the beast takes power at the beginning of his 42 months. Since the 2W's must also have a full 1260 days there is a full 7 year period left to be fulfilled. So then the 2W's ministry ensues when the covenant for 1 week is 'strengthened with great strength' and ends when the beast is given his 42 months of power to wage war and overcome.

In this way we will know when the end begins as we will see two homeless looking guys punishing the very earth and those who tread it.

 

 

 

[OneLight]

On 6/1/2021 at 3:45 PM, WilliamL said:

There is no New Testament passage whatsoever that speaks of a 7-year Tribulation, or even alludes to one. There is no New Testament passage whatsoever that mentions any length for the Trib.

Jesus Himself referred to the words of Daniel in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.  Did Jesus speak of the 7 years - no, but if Daniel's words were not true, He would never refer to them, so I take what Daniel wrote as true.

[WilliamL]

On 6/1/2021 at 8:39 PM, Montana Marv said:

Look again.  As it was in the days of Noah (all 600 of those years), so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.  For in the days before the flood (all 600 of those years), (see above),; in the days before the flood. people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark.  Your pole change occurred after Noah entered the ark.  So your time of distress does not diminish what I have said..

Noah entered the ark twice. Jesus was referring to the second time. Read Gen. 7:7-13 very carefully.

[WilliamL]

On 6/3/2021 at 2:43 PM, TheBlade said:

Something with 483 years leaves 7 years. Something that Israel didn't fully pay.

False. Shown here:

44. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 6: Do Verses 26b-27 Prophesy Future Events?

Lists the seven specific prophecies found in Daniel 9:26b-27, and tests whether the belief that they will be fulfilled in the future can be substantiated by other biblical End Time prophecies.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1605-daniel-924-27-examined-part-6-do-verses-26b-27-prophesy-future-events/

It WAS fully fulfilled in 66-73 A.D. Shown here:

45. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 7: Were Verses 26b-27 Fulfilled Historically?

Tests the view that the seven prophesied events were fulfilled during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D. Also, explains the reason for the time-gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/

Edited June 6, 2021 by WilliamL
added blog posts

[The Light]

On 6/1/2021 at 2:45 PM, WilliamL said:

There is no New Testament passage whatsoever that speaks of a 7-year Tribulation, or even alludes to one. There is no New Testament passage whatsoever that mentions any length for the Trib.

I missed the part in your quote where I said that the tribulation was 7 years long.

 

[The Light]

18 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Noah entered the ark twice. Jesus was referring to the second time. Read Gen. 7:7-13 very carefully.

Noah, his family and all the animals entered the ark, as instructed, 7 days BEFORE the flood.

You need to read Gen 7 very carefully.

Edited June 7, 2021 by The Light

[Diaste]

Then the LORD said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2You are to take with you seven pairs ofa every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate; a pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate; 3and seven pairs of every kind of bird of the air, male and female, to preserve their offspring on the face of all the earth. 4For seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living thing I have made.”

Even though this may look like God commanded Noah and his family to go into the ark with the animals at that moment it may or may not be true from the above. We see God gave the command, we don't see from the above Noah went in at that moment. God is making a statement about what Noah is to do and what God is about to do, in 7 days. I will allow it's possible Noah entered the ark with his family and the animals at this point.

"Now Noah was 600 years old when the floodwaters came upon the earth. 7And Noah and his wife, with his sons and their wives, entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. 8The clean and unclean animals, the birds, and everything that crawls along the ground 9came to Noah to enter the ark, two by two, male and female, as God had commanded Noah."

Now we have a conflict. Is this already 7 days later? It's already looking like Noah entered the ark twice in the above two passages. We see the floodwaters here and God said it would be 7 days more before the flood happens. But I will grant this is the action of Noah based on the command from the first passage. It certainly looks to be the case.

 

"And after seven days the floodwaters came upon the earth. 11In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month, all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12And the rain fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights."

Now we are 7 days after the command from Gen 7:1-4. Also the very day the fountains of the great deep are broken up and the rains begin is very specific...2-17 of the 600th year of Noah 

"On that very day Noah entered the ark, along with his sons Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and his wife, and the three wives of his sons— 14they and every kind of wild animal, livestock, crawling creature, bird, and winged creature. 15They came to Noah to enter the ark, two by two of every creatureb with the breath of life. 16And they entered, the male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in."

Uh oh... now the idea is refuted unequivocally Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood. Noah, family, and animals entered the ark 2-17 of the 600th year of Noah, the same day as the waters began to flood the earth. I get this doesn't fit well with pretrib. Or it does actually. Pretrib is adept at ignoring specific timing for events and then making up timing out of thin air. 

Noah was obviously in and out of the ark thousands of times over the course of 100 years as he had to build it. Maybe even eating and sleeping inside the ark. Who knows? There could have been birthday parties and anniversaries going on inside the ark for all we know. 

And you don't think Noah built it without the help of animals, do you? Even though scripture doesn't say this I'm betting beasts were used to haul timbers and even lift some. Noah didn't call up Home Depot for a delivery. Noah and animals were in and out of the ark daily for 100 years.

Our attention is being called to the relationship between Noah and family and beasts entering safety and when the wrath of God fell on the world; and that was on 2-17 in the 600th year when both wrath fell and entering the Lord's safety occurred.

There is no way Noah entered the ark 7 days before in the context of escape as pretrib suggests when scripture without doubt, in no uncertain terms, clearly, unequivocally says, 'on that same day'.

This is the very model of the salvation of the Lord for His people. On the day wrath begins the people of the Lord will be taken to safety and not before.

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Diaste
Clarification

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Chicken coop2 said:

I don't understand the year 600 thing.  Noah was 600 years old.  For this to have happened in the year 600, Noah would have had to have been born the same year God made Adam.

Just abbreviated.