Is the Charismatic Movement Dangerous and Heretical?

[Marathoner]

5 hours ago, Paul James said:

What caused me to see through the theatrical manifestations such as jerking, shaking, babbling in public tongues, and falling down, was when I decided to observe the pastor and church elders to see if they joined in.  I found that although the pastor encouraged the manifestations, he never manifested any of it himself, nor did the church elders.   This showed me that there was manipulation going on, a type of hypnotic suggestion that triggered people to do the extreme manifestations.  

A good example from a pastor with a sense of humour and a realistic view of spurious manifestations was when he told the congregation that after a five second countdown a wave of glory would sweep through the church.  He did the countdown and as soon as he said, "Zero!"  pandemonium broke out all through the congregation with all sorts of manifestation and emotional outbursts.  When it all died down, the pastor said, "Did you feel that?"  Many cried out, "Yes we sure did!"  The pastor then said, "Funny...I never felt a thing!"   What he did was to show how hypnotic suggestion works with a crowd of people.

This is what happens when Benny Hinn waves his hands at a group and they all fall down.  A hypnotist does the same thing to a group when he says, "Sleep!" and waves his hands at the group and they all fall asleep.

Hillsong music does the same.  The particular nature of it causes people to go into trances, increasing in intensity and at the climax manifestations happen.  I saw a video where the pastor wanted to calm the people down to go to the next part of the meeting, but he couldn't get control of the people for around 15 minutes, because the people had been hypnotised by the music to such a state that it took all that time for people to come back down to earth.

But if you observe the pastor and leadership team in these meetings, you will see that they remain cool as cucumbers.  They are the ones manipulating the people while they themselves don't allow themselves to enter into the hypnotic suggestion and manifestations.

Not all Charismatic churches are like that, but if you find yourself in a meeting where these things are happening, watch the leadership team and how they manipulate the people into the sensory and emotional trance states.   You will also find that the true Gospel of Christ is never preached in those meetings.  It will always be God will bless you and make you prosperous, healthy, and that Jesus will be your friend and will give you what you claim for.

I've witnessed the same thing going on in one particular church I visited with for a while. The pastors were quite the sight to see in their expensive suits taking advantage of a pricy audio-visual system paid for by congregants, some of whom were in poverty and hanging on by a shoestring. I was moved deeply for the sake of one young couple who had two children with another on the way. They drove a beat-up car while the senior pastor owned a luxury automobile. 

They wondered how they were going to afford rent and so they were praying for a miracle... and what did the pastors do about it? Nothing. Give and God will give to you, they preached, which of course meant "tithing" to their house of filthy lucre. I decided to look into matters after I left that place, brother.

The pastors were paid by denominational HQ according to the membership roll. This was a large church and at that time, I estimated that the senior pastor was making in excess of $80,000 USD per year. This was a little over 20 years ago. 

[Starise]

9 hours ago, Marathoner said:

You're playing the devil's advocate? You seek to make an example of the testimony of others to prove your point in a manner which satisfies your agenda in this topic? That's distasteful to the extreme because wouldn't it be enough to simply share your own testimony without assuming the role of an accuser of the brethren? 

I never accused you of doing this, my friend. You accused yourself in your own words above. I'm not holding it against you, but it should be pointed out that you're accusing those you've never met of all manner of things on account of your experience. How does that make you any different from the ones who mistreated you in such a way, brother? 

This is why I stress that I pay no heed to denominations, movements, and the like. Why should I, when I was every bit the sinner who was dead in his sins when my Father in heaven drew me to His Son? I was lost once... am I therefore going to judge those who are confused, or lost themselves? Never. 

I'm grieved that terrible things were done to you, @Starise. I've endured terrible things as well, but I'm not blaming anyone for that. I know better, embracing the truth that whatever befalls those who are beloved by the Lord works for their good.  

Sorry @Marathoner I don't feel I have accused anyone or in any way minimized your experiences. My only goal here was to be 100% objective. If looking at any subject we should look at all sides of it. 

It's pretty clear we hold differing opinions on what we think Charismatic is, even after I posted a wiki link that I felt was pretty objective as to the beginnings of the movement.

If you haven't understood the jist of my point there's no point in me going any further. In hindsight I should have probably said that the experiences of others differ and never brought you into it because that looks personal when it really wasn't intended that way.

MY experiences were not as positive thus my bias in that direction.

We also differ on the idea of structure in the church which is another topic. I think structure is a good thing if done properly. I am not against all denominations because they are organized. I also have my interpretation of the scriptures which flies in the face of some charismatic "doctrine".

[Starise]

9 hours ago, Whyme said:

Are prosperity preachers charismatic?

Many are. Oral Roberts was an early adopter. 

[Whyme]

26 minutes ago, Starise said:

Many are. Oral Roberts was an early adopter. 

I use to listen to such preachers when i was ignorant. They sure didnt enlighten me.

[Guest kingdombrat]

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are still very active and I will argue this point until the day I am taken away to my Maker.  I completely believe [we] are Joint-Heirs and have every Right and Access to what God has offered unto us.   I believe we are able to go before God and speak to Him in Worship/Praise/even Complain like David did/we are able to discuss all issues like 2 human beings would.   I even believe {{if it serves the Purpose and Will of God}} we can Name it and Claim it.   I believe God can bring Prosperity but it's a very [RARE] occurrence [Job was wealthy beyond what we're able to imagine and realize and he still was the Most Upright man in his day and time].

 

I also believe, if we take any one of the things listed that I believe and create a doctrine out of it, we are only doing so to serve our own selfish purpose.

 

I am foolish enough to believe every single Word we read in the Bible pertaining to God's Promises unto us.

 

In my view, that is how I envision a true Pentecostal Movement, or a true Charismatic Movement.  And in that light, I am thankful to God for being a part of it!

Edited May 9, 2021 by kingdombrat

[Paul James]

9 hours ago, Marathoner said:

I've witnessed the same thing going on in one particular church I visited with for a while. The pastors were quite the sight to see in their expensive suits taking advantage of a pricy audio-visual system paid for by congregants, some of whom were in poverty and hanging on by a shoestring. I was moved deeply for the sake of one young couple who had two children with another on the way. They drove a beat-up car while the senior pastor owned a luxury automobile. 

They wondered how they were going to afford rent and so they were praying for a miracle... and what did the pastors do about it? Nothing. Give and God will give to you, they preached, which of course meant "tithing" to their house of filthy lucre. I decided to look into matters after I left that place, brother.

The pastors were paid by denominational HQ according to the membership roll. This was a large church and at that time, I estimated that the senior pastor was making in excess of $80,000 USD per year. This was a little over 20 years ago. 

I very rarely put money in the plate at church.  I give my time and energy to it.  Anyhow when the plate came around, the guy who held it used to give me a stern look when I put nothing in it.  So one day I told him that next Sunday I would put a photograph of a forgery of a $50 note in the plate.   He never bothered me again.  In a conference I quipped that as a Presbyterian I have to watch my wallet so the moth doesn't fly out.  After the conference the pastor of the church gave me a stern lecture about tithing.  I felt guilty for all of 30 seconds!!

However, in another conference, I felt the Holy Spirit wanted me to put my $10 lunch money into the love offering.  I obeyed, and as a result was offered two lunches, given a gift of $400 for my part in the ministry of that conference, and my Victim Advisor District Court salary went up $12,000 per year.  It shows that when the Holy Spirit gives direction in your heart to give, then He pays back abundantly.   Of course there is the temptation to start tithing with the expectation that the blessing will be repeated, and there is the deception where the devil comes in and corrupts the blessing by turning a one-time blessing into something expected on a regular basis.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Paul James

[Michael37]

10 minutes ago, Paul James said:

Of course there is the temptation to start tithing with the expectation that the blessing will be repeated, and there is the deception where the devil comes in and corrupts the blessing by turning a one-time blessing into something expected on a regular basis.

Which leads into the subject of revivals, their birth, life, and death.

I thank God for the spiritual revival that came and went in NZ during the 1970' s & 80's.

Unfortunately, as happened with Asuza Street, human effort tries to replicate the moving of the Holy Spirit and the result is counterfeit works of the flesh.

[Marilyn C]

40 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Which leads into the subject of revivals, their birth, life, and death.

I thank God for the spiritual revival that came and went in NZ during the 1970' s & 80's.

Unfortunately, as happened with Asuza Street, human effort tries to replicate the moving of the Holy Spirit and the result is counterfeit works of the flesh.

Hi Michael,

Oh glad you mentioned the spiritual revival in NZ in the `70s & `80`s. I went to Bible College in NZ in the early `80`s, (Te Nikeau just north of Wellington). I remember the great scripture choruses, and how we as students would be sent to encourage, share etc all the different fellowships around. Great time of learning and growing.

Love the `land of the long white cloud.`

regards, Marilyn. 

[Marilyn C]

Although this topic is mainly focused on the Charismatic movement, I see that we all recognise errors in all of man`s efforts. Now there is an interesting list that reveals the downward spiral from revelation truth to the occult.

1. Revelation by the Holy Spirit revealing the Lord Jesus Christ - His character and His purposes.

2. Teachings of man. When fresh revelation is not received then people just rely on what others have taught - some truth and some error.

3. Tradition. Over the years certain beliefs become set in people`s minds.    

4. Ritual. Then some activities become `holy` to people and lead downward to -

5. Mysticism. Looking for truth, people become deceived into spiritualising God`s word and/or believing doing strange activities will bring them light. eg. the labyrinth and so called `holy` objects etc.

6. Occult. This is often under the guise of spiritual enlightenment, but it involves the spirit realm with its strange manifestations.

 

As we can see any denomination can slide down that slippery path, and many are moving that way. So some are more obvious than others, but ritual & mysticism are very prevalent in the main line denominations. The effect is not as dramatic as the Charismatics but the end result, (doctrine of demons) is the same.

regards, Marilyn.  

[Guest kingdombrat]

I remember as a child growing in the Church Pastor'd by my Grandfather and Father, the local Methodist/Baptist/other Denominational churches would all come when we held Revival.   I never thought much about it then and saw it as people hungry for God who got past their personal doctrines and wanted fellowship in an electrified atmosphere.   Later on, my Grandpa would point out if we saw this or that [meaning people of other doctrines were acting like Pentecostals who got a good ole touch from God].   My Grandfather always was quick to point out, "if you believe you are dignified, wait till God gets a hold of you, you'll be the next one getting roasted in the churches of the {Dead}."

 

True Godly Revival has a way of shedding learned behaviors and opening the doorways to touching God that in many other settings are quite impossible.

Edited May 9, 2021 by kingdombrat