Polycarp

[Uriah]

12 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

I dont' understand all scripture by any means, especially eschatological things, but the Lord was gracious to show me some principles that can be of help in understanding His word when He helps us apply them:

Ecc 1:9

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

Psa 62:11

One thing God has spoken, two things I have heard

Mat 13:34

All these things spake Jesus (the Word made flesh) unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them

Regarding that specific verse Zech. 12:10, I look at it in the context of the surrounding passages, speaking of "that day".  And also cross referencing it where we see the same thing spoken of again in Rev. 1:7.  Not everything spoken of in those Zechariah passages and the Rev 1 verse have been fulfilled yet.

 

You may enjoy this. A prophecy that seemed to be  unfulfilled...until the second part came along.

https://biblearchaeology.org/research/divided-kingdom/3304-ezekiel-26114-a-proof-text-for-inerrancy-or-fallibility-of-the-old-testament

 

https://biblereadingarcheology.com/2017/09/13/what-happened-to-tyre/comment-page-1/

[Your closest friendnt]

On 5/20/2021 at 10:38 AM, Uriah said:

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I do not agree that this has been fulfilled, nor the whole idea that Jesus has already come. Surely an event of this magnitude would have been noted in commonly reported in world history.

In fact the literal fulfillment of a prophecy IS the hallmark of true prophecy. I, for one will NOT be unaware, omit or otherwise fail to consider and include a major part of the equation.

He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed .All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Notice anything here? Sure sounds like a lot of past tense talk for something that hadn't happened yet, not for a long time to come. And present tenses too.

 Look! The LORD IS coming from heaven
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will no longer hide those who have been killed.
They will be brought out for all to see......

For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place

for the terrible day is almost here—
the day of the LORD!
It is a day of clouds and gloom,
a day of despair for the nations.

For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near— a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations

Listen, a noise on the mountains, like that of a great multitude! Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms, like nations massing together! The LORD Almighty IS mustering an army for war.

Howl ye; for the day of the LORD IS at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty...For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 

All this in plain language!

Mangling the meaning? ORR, consider a man who had a unique bond with Jesus and was looked to by so many as a voice of authority for direction. Knowing he was about to DIE, knowing apostles' letters had been circulated and his would too. What does he include as a legacy? 

He takes up the subject of last days prophecy! He knows of the controversies, the difficulty understanding some things...like how long? Guided by the Holy Spirit he quotes the psalm-For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

The times and seasons are NOT for us to know...He replied, “The Father alone has the authority to set those dates and times, and they are not for you to know.

God doesn't relate time as we do. To Him, time does not include the same constraints that it does for us. so it is fitting for Jesus to leave us with "watch" to hold through the ages.

And it illustrates what Paul conveyed of God speaking through time-

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

This cannot be supported by scripture. 

You write like you are living as a Jew and before the time of Jesus Chris.  

And I am wondering about something about all those things that you prophecy that will happen on the day of the Lord.

This is old time warnings to the Jews and to the Israelites and are not from Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not speak those warnings.

Those thinks were spoken  before they happened and they came to pass and they are done with. 

They were supposed to take place while the Sinai Covenant was in effect. 

Because they were spoken as a judgement to those who were in Covenant with their Lord and their God. For their punishment of their disobedience they were spoken, during the rein of an eye against an eye and a tooth against a tooth as per the book of Leviticus the Law of God or Moses.

The Sinai Covenant is done with when Jesus Christ died on the Cross. 

What are you doing digging things that are buried with time. Why you are attempting to resurrected them and apply them to the people of Jesus Christ. 

Do you think that Jesus Christ cannot speak for himself? 

What you are trying to accomplish?  Is it to built anxiety to those who may believe your message who are in a Covenant of peace with God because of Jesus Christ. 

Jesus Christ is our peace with God. 

He was made the propritiation for our sins. 

As per your posting of Isaiah 53: 

He was punished for our sins so God cannot punish us for our sins for us who believe in him.  

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[DeighAnn]

What the early Christians believed as far as the gospel and the end times doesn't matter.  They may have thought it was written to them BUT GOD knew there were to be thousands of years coming so we accept He knew what He was doing.  I am sure down through the years the Holy Spirit has led each generation in what each generation was to know and understand and pass on.  (I also consider evil influences and their effects)

God knows His plan and until the end of the last generation, is working it through us.   From the time Jesus finished His work as Saviour till now it has been mostly about bringing all to salvation.  BUT

There has to be the final generation and that FINAL generation ends with the return of Christ and so could not 
1.  come in the middle   
2.  come until Israel became a nation again, the prophecy of Lev 26 fulfilled (unless Christ had been accepted then).
3.  what we think of the 'nation of Israel' what it may be/should be doesn't matter.  2520 years God said, and by God, 2520 years it was.  


The last 70 plus years have been COMPLETELY different from ALL other time.  
The beliefs regarding 'religion', the 'knowledge increasing' and the shift from the 'saving belief' to 'end times' (famine for the Word) is exactly as The Bible tells it would be.  

We see and hear the difference between the 'letter bound' and the 'lead by the Spirit'.  Don't let 'big' words distract.   PARTIAL prophecy fulfilled is NOT prophecy fulfilled.  Never has been, never will be. If not fulfilled AS WRITTEN, it is not fulfilled, period.  It is set forth as either history, example, education etc., nothing more. 
 
IF the only way to read and divide Gods Word was mans way in order to be correct' (but only in other mens eyes) and it can't answer the simplest questions in the simplest of terms (paired with a most depressing and finite view of the Word) and given with a pronounced lack of skill in the art of humble communication skills for the edification the sheep and lambs, what's the point of going that direction instead of being led by the Holy Spirit?  

The most skilled in the Word of God are those who can take the most difficult passages and put them forth in the most clear and simple form for all to understand while at the same time understanding the 'hearer' so as to put it forth as to 1. a king and queen 2. lost sheep  or 3. gentile 

But one of the biggest problems I have run into is those who take a level 1 teaching and pair it with a level 3 thereby confusing everyone.  


Milk, meat, living stone




The return of Christ 40 years later?  Why knowing there were thousands of years of flesh to go and it would render some very clear and precise verses VOID.  What about the commission to go proclaim the Word to the ends of the earth?  We know it wasn't proclaimed in every language in a mere 40 years.  




Christ returning for the 'day of vengeance' only, no other time makes

All prophecy concerning His return is SIMPLE to rightly divide.  There are no questions left unanswered.  BIG reason this is MOST LIKELY is that none of the verses conflict with each other.  There are no questions 'hanging' with no explanations.  

He returns a second time with the armies of heaven. Literally.  His brightness destroys Satan and all evil. Literally. Satan is bound for the 1000 years.  Literally. The dead rise. Literally.  The alive and remain are changed.  Literally.  His foot touches the mount of Olives.  The valley forged, mountains into plains.  Every knee bows. Every eye sees.  The sheep and goats are separated.  He sets up ORDER on the earth (Thy kingdom come) and the millennial temple.  For the next thousand years HIS TRUTH, unimpeded by lies or deception, goes out. (Thy WILL be done).  We reign with Him during this time.  Literally.  Some will be sitting at the gates, judging.  Some ministering to Him in the temple, some to the people outside of it.  Nations come to worship.  


  
Christ returning multiple times   
What would have been the point of sending the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, if He was just going to be popping in all the time?  How is sitting at the right hand of the God different whether literally or figuratively?  Who is our mediator IF He leaves that place, with Satan accusing day and night?  Is there a return with angels ONLY and one with saints ONLY?  When we read of latter day events or end times and GOD gives us nothing in the way of WHAT is written leaving us to distinguish one from the other with guessing.  SURE, we here can go back and forth and dissect but it is written FOR ALL to easily understand.   


Here is what IS WRITTEN
 

.....of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

 Until the day in which He was taken up, AFTER THAT HE THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT had given commandments unto the apostles whom He had chosen

AFTER THAT it is the Holy Spirit that 'returns'.  (Of course, this is not an invitation to get into the semantics of 'The Father, Son and Holy Spirit',  and the overall Sovereignty but AS GOD DISTINGUISHES between the two in His writings, when saying 'Jesus' returns, no one assumes it is the Holy Spirit being spoken of.  Specially by anyone who is exacting in their speech AND if GOD wanted it taught that way He would have written it that way)  
 

Acts 1:3 To whom also He shewed Himself alive after His passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and SPEAKING of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith He, ye have heard of Me.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

NO mention of any other Prophecy being fulfilled, BUT this in itself is one that will be

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Acts 1:7 And He said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power.

1. The book of Revelation was written till near the end of their lives  2.   it wasn't all together anywhere for them to read  3.   if they believed it was 'FOR THEIR TIME' it was because THEY didn't HEAR/LISTEN TO the Words of the Lord.  

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

NOTICE what was NOT SAID  'ye shall be kings and priests and be reigning with Me'.
 

Acts 1:9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

Beheld, taken up,  and a cloud  -  Every eye shall see, return, in clouds



 

[Your closest friendnt]

Acts 1:11 KJV 

¹¹ Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

WHAT was the like manner that Jesus was taken up into Heaven? 

in verse 9 of Acts 1: KJV 

⁹ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

The answer to the question can be found in verse nine.

How far was he when the cloud engulfed him and they could not seen him anymore, they only could seem the Cloud.

We know that he will not come back by a chariot of fire because he was not taken up by a chariot of fire.

He was taken up engulfed by the cloud.

We are not told anything about that cloud.

We are not given anything else at that time and the people can only say what they could see " a cloud". 

The angel said "in likely manner ".

What is the likely manner?

What are supposed the eye witness will see when that happens. 

Will they see a cloud coming down from Heaven resembling the cloud which cover Jesus as he was taken up, just the order of reversing of what happened that time.

That's all the Angels did not say anything else.

Did not say anything else! If we want to admit this.

He was talking with them when this thing happened. 

And can we say that the proposed of the Angels to say that it was because the people who were there were wondering to themselves if and when Jesus Christ will ever talk to them again.

And the Angel wanted to put in them the hope that Jesus Christ will come and talked to them again.

And that what happened, Jesus Christ after that he appeared to them many times in their lives afterwards and he talked with them. And that continues there after through out all the generations and he also Appeared to Paul according to his own testimony. 

Did the Angels say anything else?  

[Justin Adams]

Kurt Simmons

Most commentators assign the book of Revelation the date of 96 A.D. for its composition.  Lay people often assume this date to be correct.  After all, isn’t this what the marginal notes in their Bibles report?  They never suspect that the same teachers who interpret the book wrong, date it wrong also. However, the evidence for this date is so equivocal and ambiguous, its probative value is practically nothing and, in fact, is assigned more by tradition than by solid evidence.  As we shall see, the better view is that the book was written sometime between 56-70 A.D. and is primarily concerned with the church’s victory over the persecutions of Nero and the Jews, and the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome.

Evidence For 96 A.D.

As widespread as the agreement is for the date of 96 A.D. is, one would think that there must be considerable evidence to support this position.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  It is like the doubt the New International Version throws upon Mark 16:9-20 by separating the text from the rest of the gospel with the note: “The most reliable early manuscripts omit Mark 16:9-20.”  We possess about 6,000 manuscripts.  Mark 16:9-20 are missing in only two, and these two manuscripts are probably the worst in our possession (the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus).  Yet, by sheer weight of the editors’ assertion, many are duped into believing that the last 12 verses of Mark are not authentic. Similarly, by the assertion of marginal notes in their Bibles, the date of 96 A.D.  is assumed to be dependable despite the fact that there is little or no reliable evidence to support it.  The evidence in favor of 96 A.D. can be summed up as follows 1) Oral tradition has it that John was banished to the Isle of Patmos by Emperor Domitian sometime around 96 A.D.; 2) a statement by Irenaeus, a second century “church father,” and  3) the supposition that apostasy in the Asian churches prior to 96 A.D. is unlikely and requires the later dating.

Banishment of John To Patmos

There is no reliable evidence that John was banished to Patmos by Domitian.  The whole tradition is similar to the oral tradition among the Catholic church that Peter was once bishop of the church at Rome: Not one verse of scripture or reliable piece of historical evidence can be cited to support it.  Jerome states that John was seen in 96 A.D. and was so aged and weak and infirm that he was with difficulty carried to the church, and could speak only a few words to the people.”[1] The fact that John was so old and weak as to have to be carried renders doubtful that he could possibly have written the book in 96 A.D.  Indeed, the Revelation itself says John must again “prophesy before many peoples, nations, tongues and kings”  (Rev. 10:11) something he could not do in the state of decrepitude that we would expect of one of such advanced years.

Age And Condition of The Church In Asia

The notion that the churches of Asia would not be in the state of apostasy the book of Revelation seems to describe earlier that the reign of Domitian rests upon pure supposition.  That the churches of Galatia were “so soon removed” from the gospel proves that there is no substantial basis for the claim that the churches of Asia could not have apostatized early on.  Indeed, Paul affirms that the apostasy associated with the latter times was well under way when he wrote Timothy.  (I Tim. 4:1-6; II Tim. 3:1-5) The letter to the Hebrews speaks directly to the apostasy of Jewish believers from the faith.  John also wrote of this apostasy as a present fact saying “They went out from us, but there were not of us…”  (I Jno. 2:19) Like the spirit of Antichrist John said was already present and evidence that they were in the last days of the Mosaic age (I Jno. 4:3), the apostasy of the church at Ephesus and those John wrote of disproves the notion that the conditions described in Revelation “must” be assigned to a later date.

Statement Of Irenaeus

This is the only evidence of any value, and it is so slight as to be nearly worthless.  Irenaeus was a church father of the second century, many of whose letters have come down to us.  Concerning the mystic number of the beast given Revelation 13:18, Irenaeus says thus: “If it were necessary to have his name distinctly announced at the present time it would doubtless have been announced by him who saw the apocalypse; for it was not a great while ago that (it or he) was seen, but almost in our own generation, toward the end of Domitian’s reign.” [2]  It should be observed that the subject of the verb “was seen”  is ambiguous, and may be understood to refer to either John or the apocalypse.  To argue as do some that the subject of the verb is the apocalypse is purely arbitrary.  In fairness, either John or the apocalypse may be the subject.  But what is the point of saying the vision was seen in recent times?  The nearness of the vision cannot open the symbols of the book.  It was the author John to whom it belonged to expound the meaning of the mystic name.  Thus if the reference is to anything, it would seem to be to John.  However, even if Irenaeus’ statement is granted to mean what advocates of the 96 A.D. say, this is the only independent, external evidence favoring that date.

But did Irenaeus refer to Domitian?  Robert Young, the author of Young’s Analytical Concordance, wrote a commentary on Revelation published prior to 1885 wherein he makes the following statement: “It was written in Patmos about A.D. 68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus in A.D. 175, who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou – i.e., Domitius (Nero).  Sulpicius, Orosius, etc., stupidly mistaking Dimitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder.  The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the early date.”  Because of the ambiguity of Irenaeus’ statement and the identity of the emperor he referred to, there is such a divergence of scholarly opinion regarding the credibility of the Irenaeus quotation as to render it almost worthless as external evidence of the later date. Thus the whole of the evidence favoring the date of 96 A.D. comes down to something little more than nothing.  Moreover, there is no internal evidence in the book itself upon which to corroborate this date, but much against.  Therefore, let us proceed to examine the evidence for an earlier dating.

External Evidence

The Syrian Version

 The Syriac is among the earliest and most important versions. The oldest of these is dated to within about one hundred years of the pens of the inspired writers. There are several versions of the Syriac in our possession, including the Peshitto (“simple”), the Curetonian, the Philoexenian, and Harclean. The oldest of these lack the books of II Peter, II and III Jno., Jude and the Revelation. [3] Where these books are present, Revelation is captioned and entitled thus: “The Revelation which was made by God to John the Evangelist in the island of Patmos, into which he was thrown by Nero Caesar.”[4] Thus, from the oldest and most important versions in our possession comes unequivocal testimony placing the Revelation in the time of Nero.[5]

Church Fathers

  As previously noted, several patristic writers give testimony for an early dating of Revelation.  Tertullian places John’s martyrdom at Rome at the time of Peter and Paul:  “Since, moreover, you are close upon Italy, you have Rome, from which there comes even into our own hands the very authority (of apostles themselves).  How happy is its church, on which the apostles poured forth all their doctrine along with their blood! where Peter endures a passion like his Lord’s; where Paul wins his crown in a death like John’s! where the Apostle John was first plunged, unhurt,  into boiling oil, and thence remitted to his island-exile.”[6] The universal tradition of the early church is that Peter and Paul suffered martyrdom under Nero at Rome. Tertullian clearly joins John’s death in both time and place to those of the other apostles.  Furthermore, the manner of death (boiling in oil) is consistent with the cruel deaths and tortures devised by Nero for Christians reported by Tactitus.[7] Ephiphanius places John’s banishment and the Revelation under “Claudius.”[8] However, many scholars believe that this is a probable reference to Nero Claudius Caesar and not emperor Claudius, Nero having assumed the Claudian family name upon his adoption by the emperor.  Andreas of Cappadocia who, although himself repeating Irenaeus’ tradition of a Domitian banishment, mentions in his commentary that there were not wanting those who applied passages to the siege of Jerusalem by Titus.  Arethas makes similar comments, and states concerning Rev. 7:4 “When the evangelist received these oracles, the destruction in which the Jews were involved was not yet inflicted by the Romans.”  Theophlact, in his preface to his commentary on John, places the apostle’s banishment 32 years after the Ascension of Christ, squarely in the reign of Nero.  Bearing in mind that patristic writers who attribute John’s banishment to Domitian do so based upon Irenaeus, and offer no independent testimony of their own, the independent testimony of external tradition, therefore, is clearly weighted in favor of a pre-A.D. 70 date of composition.

Internal Evidence

Imminence Of The Impending Events

Despite the impressive array of external authorities that may be cited for the earlier date, it is the internal testimony of the book itself that is most important for it bears clear and unequivocal evidence that it was written before the siege of Jerusalem. Because of limited space, we cannot cover each of these, so we must limit our discussion to those that are most important.

The book makes numerous reference to the imminence of the predicted events.  The exhortation to “read, hear and keep” the contents “for the time is at hand” (Rev. 1:3), clearly shows that the events depicted would come upon that generation (“must shortly come to pass” Rev. 1:1).  Over and over, Jesus gave a personal warning to the churches that he would come upon them quickly in the events of the vision and catch them unawares if they failed to repent.  (Rev. 2:5,16,25; 3:3,11; 16:15; 22:6,10,12,20.)  Application of these time elements and allusions to events thousands of years later, and to centuries yet to come, does violence to the text.  Jesus had told the apostles that before they had opportunity to preach in all the towns of Israel he would return:  “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.”  (Matt. 10:23; cf. 16:27,28)  Jesus warned Caiaphas that he would “see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”  Obviously a reference to the destruction of the Jewish nation by Rome.  Why search for fulfillment in the myriad pages of medieval history when abundant testimony exists showing Christ’s return in vengeance upon the Jews of that generation?  (Matt. 23:36; 24:35; Mk. 13:30; Lk. 21:32)

Activities Of The Judaizers

There are several clear references in the letters to the churches indicating the presence of Judaizers in their midst as a source of trouble, strife, and division.  Paul complained of these Judaizers during his ministry, calling them a “thorn in the flesh,” messengers of Satan to buffet him.  (II Cor.  12:7)  Paul called these “messengers of Satan” “false apostles and deceitful workers” in II Cor. 11:13.  Revelation refers to these saying the church at Ephesus had tried them “which say they are apostles, and are not and hast found them liars.”  (Rev. 2:2)  This is a clear testimony to the nearness of time of the Revelation to the second letter to the Corinthians. To the church at Philadelphia Jesus says he will make them “of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not, but do lie” to come and worship before their feet.  (Rev. 3:9)  This is a clear reference to the utter defeat of Judaism and the destruction of the Jewish theocracy and the glory that would arise upon the New Testament church.

Tribes Still Extant

 Related to the activities of the Judaizers is the fact John portrays the tribes of Israel as still intact in their land, from which God “seals” a remnant hundred forty and four thousand.  (Rev. 7:1-8)  The clear implication of this imagery is that at the time Revelation was composed, the longsuffering of God was giving adequate opportunity for the Jews to obey the gospel before the storm of war, pestilence and famine swept across Palestine, destroying the nation for all time.

 The Representation That The Temple And City Of Jerusalem
Were Still Standing

 Revelation chapter 11:1-19 depicts the temple in Jerusalem as still standing.  John is told to measure the temple and altar and them that worship therein.  (v. 1) “But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.”  (v.2)  This passage clearly indicates that the temple and city are both in existence at the time of John’s writing.   The forty-two months refers to the 3 1/2 yr. war of the Romans against the Jews and the siege of Jerusalem.  The identity of the “holy city” is clearly given in verse eight where it is referred to as the “great city which  spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”  In Matthew 24:2, Jesus predicted that the buildings of the temple would be overthrown and not one stone left upon another.  The apostles asked when these things would be fulfilled, what would be the sign of his coming and of the end of the Mosaic age.  (v.3)  Jesus answered saying “This generation shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled.”  This definitely limits the events of Matthew 24 and Revelation 11 to the forty-odd year period following Jesus’ ascension. Since the temple and city were both destroyed in 70 A.D. by Rome and they are depicted as still standing in Revelation 11:2, we can be certain the book was written prior to the war against the Jews.

The Sixth Emperor Was Still Reigning

  Revelation 17:10-12 marks the period in which John wrote the Revelation.  Like the reference to the city and temple, this internal evidence cannot reasonably be disputed.  Chapter 17:10 states unequivocally that the sixth emperor is still on the throne:  “And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come.”  The Caesars are as follows: (1) Julius, (2) Augustus, (3) Tiberius, (4) Caligula, (5) Claudius, (6) Nero.  “Five are fallen” – Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius were deceased, “one is” – Nero was yet on the throne.  The reign of Nero extended from 54 A.D. to 68 A.D.  Therefore the book was almost assuredly written sometime between these dates.  Alternatively, if Julius is omitted upon the premise he was not among the emperors (the empire really began under Augustus), then the sixth emperor would be Vespasian, the Roman general Nero commanded to prosecute the war against the Jews and who came to the throne of the empire after Nero’s death.  In favor of this it is argued that the beast that “was and is not and yet is” (Rev. 17:8) referred to Nero, i.e., he was the incarnation and personification of the beast but was now dead and Vespasian ruling in his stead. Advocates of this interpretation also point to the language of Rev. 17:11 which is thought to refer to Domitian, the eighth emperor of Rome: “And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.”  But whether it be Nero or Vespasian for present purposes, is of but little consequence.  Either way, a pre-destruction of Jerusalem dating of the Revelation is easily sustained.

The Mystic Number Of The Beast

   John was given a vision of two great beasts: One arose from the sea the other arose from the earth.  (Rev. 13:1,11)  The “sea” beast is Imperial Rome, the “earth” beast is Roman occupied Palestine-Judea.  In the book of Daniel, the sea beast is represented as the fourth world empire (Dan. 2:39-45). The land beast is probably referred to by the “little horn” in the forth beast of Daniel chapter seven.  John identifies the beast in Revelation chapter 13:18 saying “Here is wisdom, Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”  The official title of Nero Caesar, when given its numerical equivalence in Hebrew letters, equals 666.  They are: 50 – 200- 6 – 50 – 100 – 60 – 200 = 666.  The variant spelling of “Neron” as “Nero” is believed to account for the variant readings in some manuscripts giving the number of the beast as 616 – the “n” being equal to 50, the change being introduced to reflect the Latin spelling of Nero, versus the Hebrew Neron. This fact, when coupled with the identifying information of chapter 17:10 saying the sixth emperor was still enthroned makes the identification all but certain.  Why search more?

Jesus’ Imminent Return

Jesus stated many times, in many ways that he would return before that generation had passed to exact vengeance upon the Jews and to close out the Mosaic age.  (Matt. 10:23; 16:27,28; 21:33-45; 23:34-39; 24:3,30,34; 26:64 et cetera)  The imminence of this return was a repeated theme of the apostles and writers of the New Testament.  (Acts 6:14; I Cor. 1:8; 7:29; Jm. 5:7,8; I Pet. 1:5;4:7)  The prophet Zechariah had prophesied of the destruction of Jerusalem saying: “Behold the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.  For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go into captivity, and residue shall not be cut off from the city.”  (Zech. 14:1,2)  This is the “great and notable day of the Lord” Peter cited from the prophet Joel in warning the Jews to repent of their murder of Jesus.  (Acts 2:20)

The gathering of the nations against Jerusalem is depicted in Revelation 17:16 says: “The ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.”  Those who say the whore is the city of Rome bear the burden of explaining when and why Imperial Rome conspired with its provinces to burn its own imperial city.  Clearly, the only reasonable view is that the harlot depicts the city Jerusalem.  Of Jerusalem, Isaiah decried:  “How is the faithful city become an harlot!”  (Isa. 1:21)

Jesus’ promised return to destroy Jerusalem corresponds with the warnings and promises to the churches of Asia that his return was “at hand.”  (Rev. 1:1,3; 2:5,16,25; 3:3,11; 16:15; 22:6,10,12,20)  When Jesus said that “the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel”  (Mk. 1:15) we know that the kingdom was inaugurated on first Pentecost after Jesus arose from the grave, approximately 3 1/2 years from the time he made this statement.  In another place, he said: “Whosoever, therefore, shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be when he cometh in the glory of his father with the holy angels…Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.”  (Mk. 8:38; 9:1. cf. Lk. 9:26,27)  [8]  Clearly, both the kingdom and Christ came in that generation as Jesus foretold his disciples and the churches of Asia. If there were only 3 1/2 years to the coming of the kingdom, why should we look for longer than this in the fulfillment of the events depicted in the Revelation?  How can “at hand” have such different meanings?

World Condition

A final consideration that should be mentioned in passing is that the events of Revelation are more consistent with the world condition under Nero, the civil wars that followed his death, and the siege of Jerusalem than any other time in history.  No other period witnessed such moral depravity, license, and wanton abandon as did the empire under Nero. Tacitus’ and Suetonius’ descriptions of Nero’s depravity, bloodlust, and reign of terror stretch out in an almost endless list of murder, cruelty and vice, ended only by a violent death which launched the world into a condition of near anarchy as the world witnessed four emperors in the space of year battle for the imperial throne.  Domitian’s reign, by comparison, seems almost tame and perfectly inconsequential.  Certainly, there is nothing in the reign of Domitian that was of eschatological significance, such as the extinction of the Jewish state and the destruction of the city and temple.  The world condition under Nero, the persecution he waged against the church, and the eschatological events culminating in the destruction of the Jewish state, coupled with the imminence of the events prophesied in Revelation, all point to the date of composition under Nero, not subsequent emperors.

Conclusion

These are not all the pieces of evidence that point to an early date of composition, but they are among the most critical and most concise.  The book of Revelation is about the consummation of the ages – the bringing to fruition God’s plan of redemption by closing out the national kingdom of apostate Judaism and bringing in the new, Heavenly Jerusalem, the Bride, and church of Christ.  The events depicted belonged to the generation of those to whom the book was addressed, the seven churches of Asia. Those who are looking for future fulfillment are certain to be disappointed.  No substantial or credible evidence exists in support of the traditional date of 96 A.D. Every reliable indication is that it was composed prior to 70 A.D. and the destruction of the Jewish state by Rome.

 End Notes

[1] ” The whole is given as follows: “Beatus Joannes Evangelista cum Ephesi moraretur usque ad extremam senectutem, et vix inter discipulorum manus ad ecclesiam deferretur, nec posset in plura vocem verba contexere, nihil aliud per singulas solebat proferri collectas, nisi hoc ‘Filioli, Diligite, Alterutrum.’ Tandem discipuli et fraters qui aderant, taedio affecti quod eadem semper audierent, dixerunt: ‘Magister, quare semper hoc loqueris?’  Qui respondit dignam Joanne sententiam: ‘Quia praeceptum Domini est, et si solum fiat, sufficit.’”  (Jerome, In Gal. vi, 10)

[2] (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Bk. 5, Chpt. 30, Sec. 3)

[3]  Moses Stuart, Commentary on the Apocalypse (1845), Vol. I, p. 267; J. W. McGarvey, Evidences of Christianity (Nashville, Gospel Advocate, 1886), pp.34,78.

[4]  Moses Stuart, Commentary on the Apocalypse (1845) Vol. I, p. 267; Milton S. Terry, Biblical Hermeneutics (1890), pp. 136,137.

[5]  We pass over the Muratorian fragment.  The fragment dates the Revelation before Paul’s letters, saying that Paul wrote seven letters in imitation of his predecessor, John.  Concerning the fragment Stuart states: “Thus much for this incondite composition, on which, as it seems to me, no great reliance can be placed for anything of serious importance.  It may, however, be regarded as conveying the common impression of that part of the church where the author lived, that Paul, as a writer of seven epistles, was preceded by John, who wrote to the seven churches of Asia Minor.”  Moses Stuart, Commentary on the Apocalypse (1845), Vol. I, p. 266.  Cf. Milton S. Terry, Biblical Hermeneutics (1890), p. 136. See also .F. Bruce, The Canon of the Scripture (Downers Grove, IL, InterVarsity Press, 1988), p. 160.

[6] Tertullian, On Prescription Against Heretics, 36; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 3, p. 260.

[7]  Heresies 51: 12,33.

[8]  This three and a half year period and the three and a half year period comprising the war against the Jews appear to make up the 70th week of Daniel 9:27.  The “gap” in the week occurs between the period between Jesus’ coming to atone for sin  and his return to destroy Jerusalem. (“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week [i.e., after his 3 1/2 yr. ministry] he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease [i.e., provide his own body in sacrifice for sin], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it [Jerusalem] desolate, even until the consummation [end of the mosaic age], and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”)

Edited May 22, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Heleadethme]

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

None of those verses say prophecy is fulfilled in parts. Neither do any of those verses say a partially-fulfilled prophecy will take more than 2000 years to complete. 

So I ask you again, where does scripture teach such things. You've been taught to believe such a view but is it rooted anywhere in scripture? Where does scripture state prophecy can be partially-fulfilled? 

It wasn't man that taught me that.  Hard to nail it down but it might be more accurate to think in terms of prophecy within a prophecy.  I just shared some scriptures, but really I even wonder if Ps. 62:11 doesn't have to necessarily mean the Lord is limited to only speaking of two things at the same time since His voice is a voice of MANY waters.  And His wisdom is MANIFOLD.  Maybe we are the limiting factor there and can only really "hear" two things at once while we are in the body, i'm not sure.

And since we're talking about scriptural support, I had already shared some scriptures that instruct us on how to approach the word of God to receive understanding from Him.  Whereas I have not seen any scripture from anyone that says we are to rely on our own logic and understanding to understand spiritual things.  God's word is not just for the purpose of conveying cold hard "information" to our brains of flesh for the sake of "knowing" things, it's a matter of growing in the inner man.  We aren't serving in the old way of the letter, but in the new way of the Spirit.

Anyway, iron sharpening iron, I think maybe we're all being stretched in our own different ways here lately.    I know I have lots to ponder, and praise the Lord for His goodness and Help, which I greatly need.

 

 

 

[Heleadethme]

22 hours ago, Josheb said:

Time will cease to exist? Got scripture for that?

Forgot to answer this.

Rev 10:6

And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer

New heavens and new earth.....the prize of eternal life.

[Alive]

32 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Forgot to answer this.

Rev 10:6

And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer

New heavens and new earth.....the prize of eternal life.

standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven, ⁶ and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will no longer be a delay,

⁶ and swore by the one who lives for all time, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, “There will be no more delay! ⁷ But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

⁶ and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, ⁷ but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This cannot be supported by scripture. 

You write like you are living as a Jew and before the time of Jesus Chris.  

And I am wondering about something about all those things that you prophecy that will happen on the day of the Lord.

This is old time warnings to the Jews and to the Israelites and are not from Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not speak those warnings.

Those thinks were spoken  before they happened and they came to pass and they are done with. 

They were supposed to take place while the Sinai Covenant was in effect. 

Because they were spoken as a judgement to those who were in Covenant with their Lord and their God. For their punishment of their disobedience they were spoken, during the rein of an eye against an eye and a tooth against a tooth as per the book of Leviticus the Law of God or Moses.

The Sinai Covenant is done with when Jesus Christ died on the Cross. 

What are you doing digging things that are buried with time. Why you are attempting to resurrected them and apply them to the people of Jesus Christ. 

Do you think that Jesus Christ cannot speak for himself? 

What you are trying to accomplish?  Is it to built anxiety to those who may believe your message who are in a Covenant of peace with God because of Jesus Christ. 

Jesus Christ is our peace with God. 

He was made the propritiation for our sins. 

As per your posting of Isaiah 53: 

He was punished for our sins so God cannot punish us for our sins for us who believe in him.  

 

Hello friend,

Wish it didn't upset you, it is nothing more than a post about God speaking about things to come. In Is. 53 it sounds like speaking in past tense regarding the coming of Messiah in the future.

In other references it is obviously a statement of Matt. 24 and Revelation, yet it says it is NEAR centuries prior to being said in those places.

Simply showing that, "He calleth those things which be not as though they were", regardless of when He says it or when they will be.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Kurt Simmons

Most commentators assign the book of Revelation the date of 96 A.D. for its composition.  Lay people often assume this date to be correct.  After all, isn’t this what the marginal notes in their Bibles report?  They never suspect that the same teachers who interpret the book wrong, date it wrong also. However, the evidence for this date is so equivocal and ambiguous, its probative value is practically nothing and, in fact, is assigned more by tradition than by solid evidence.  As we shall see, the better view is that the book was written sometime between 56-70 A.D. and is primarily concerned with the church’s victory over the persecutions of Nero and the Jews, and the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome.

 

False premise. It's not a temporal composition, it's revealed Holy writ as prophecy.

Even the Preterists know John was on Patmos during the reign of Domitian, long after Nero.