Polycarp

[Retrobyter]

1 minute ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Genesis 15:13-16 

¹³ And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

¹⁴ And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

¹⁵ And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

 

^***16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.***

 Before we had any Jews and any righteous Kings among Judah and the Israelites and their particular cultural definitions of "generations", in verse 16 we have the Lord speaking to Abraham and within that context he said what he said. 

The span of 400 years he cover it in four generations, but he did not make it a rule for future references to "generations". 

Shabbat shalom, Your closest friendnt.

You're right, of course. First, the land into which they went that was not theirs was Egypt, from the time of Yosef ("Joseph") until Mosheh ("Moses").

Second, I was referring to the time of Yesha`yahuw ("Isaiah") until the Messiah Yeshua` (the "Christ Jesus") came, and I  misspoke the amount of time that covered; I should have said 700 years. Sorry about that; I should have remembered it, having written a song with those words in the lyrics.

Third, it was 14 generations from David to the Captivity, not 40! I just messed up all over the place!

I was not suggesting that 400 years were 4 generations, but now that you bring it up .... Ha! Ha!

Seriously, I don't yet know how a "generation" is measured. Somehow, however, it seems that we're still seeing the "generation" of Jews who rejected God's Messiah for them, even after almost 2,000 years.

I believe that's why Strong's listed the definition of "genea" as ...

1074 genea (ghen-eh-ah'); From (a presumed derivative of) genos; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons)
-- age, generation, nation, time.

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Your closest friendnt.

You're right, of course. First, the land into which they went that was not theirs was Egypt, from the time of Yosef ("Joseph") until Mosheh ("Moses").

Second, I was referring to the time of Yesha`yahuw ("Isaiah") until the Messiah Yeshua` (the "Christ Jesus") came, and I  misspoke the amount of time that covered; I should have said 700 years. Sorry about that; I should have remembered it, having written a song with those words in the lyrics.

Third, it was 14 generations from David to the Captivity, not 40! I just messed up all over the place!

I was not suggesting that 400 years were 4 generations, but now that you bring it up .... Ha! Ha!

Seriously, I don't yet know how a "generation" is measured. Somehow, however, it seems that we're still seeing the "generation" of Jews who rejected God's Messiah for them, even after almost 2,000 years.

I believe that's why Strong's listed the definition of "genea" as ...

1074 genea (ghen-eh-ah'); From (a presumed derivative of) genos; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons)
-- age, generation, nation, time.

Shabbat Shalom Retrobyter, and  Greetings in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ "we must decrease and he must increase ". 

And we must always increase our "Talents " in him. 

We must be always be careful who is attempting to enlist our services. 

In our heart and mind we want to be Jesus, but in our sojourning we get entangle without knowing. With our mind and hearts we want to serve only him, but I wish it was so easy, as the world is not free from the adversary. 

There was an ancient civilization which taught it's citizens "to get to know one own self " and they counted that as one of the spring boards of civilizations. 

And that was the Hellenic Nation, the Nation the Lord loved very much and was having high expectations from this Nation. 

I need to respond to Uriah because of the issue of "near", and because " my word will not come back to me void ", but will accomplish what was sent to do. This is not found "near" and "my word will not come back to me void" in Isaiah 52,53,

but rather the Zeal of the Lord will do this. in Isaiah 52 and 53. 

And the New Day of Jesus Christ was not spoken into being, it required the obedience of Jesus Christ to walk through the preordained steps for him from before the foundation of the world. 

The Lord of the Jews the enforcer of the Sinai Covenant started from the very beginning conceived and going through the full term of the gestation period for a man till he gets ready to be born. 

The "second Adam" is acctually the first to enter our world through this process.  

The first man to be carried by a woman with the "LIFE" , in the Life. The first woman who was not in the Life of the Heavenly Father carried a man in her womb for nine months who was in the Life of God.

Following the development of the embryo we understand that they bring something with them, they bring abilities and they are given gifts, the anointing but still when they are born they need to be taught, someone has to teach them. 

Whether is the anointing or an Angel or the mother or an Aunt someone has to teach them the first steps.

Jesus Christ had to experience the first steps to have the experience to depend on his mother and cried for his mother's love and affection and to feel secured in his mother's arm.

He must have the experience to wrestle with the Love for his mother and the love towards God. 

His love for his mother and his duty on his mission, he must go through that struggle.  He must experience all the complications of the relationship with his mother. 

This is one of the hurdles he had to face and overcome. 

PS

(About four hundred years from the last prophet till John the Baptist).  

Edited May 23, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Young explains why. Did you actually READ the post??

Yes. Because John has been recorded as being on Patmos in 68 AD doesn't confirm the date of the Revelation. In the Syriac version, which I only learned about now, there is no date and no duration. So John was there in 68 AD. John also lived to a ripe old age and may not have received the Revelation until later in life.

This is just gap filling plain and simple.

If I was to concede John did receive the Revelation in 68 AD on that lonely isle it changes nothing about the truth of prophecy in Revelation. Exile in 68 AD has no bearing on this. Is there is a direct statement John received the vision in 68 AD?

It's a scholarly debate which bogs down the facts extant as there is no agreement based on lack of proof. 

Since it is known John was in the area in the 90s AD the Revelation of Jesus Christ could have been given anytime between 68 and 95 AD.

In reading this, http://ecclesia.org/truth/revelation.html I see the same things in your posts, The article contains many 'facts' based on gap filling and logical errors. 

The idea of age is fantasy. John still prophesies to the world through the written text of the vision which is a characteristic like any prophecy. When the prophecies of Jesus Christ's 1st advent were given the penners were long dead yet the living Word of prophecy survived and thrived. Jesus Christ and all the Apostles are still ministering to the world. So that notion is dispelled.

The 7 churches argument is also weak. Taken as a whole it's less about the physical church and much more about the attitudes, behaviors spiritual conditions of the various congregants. I thinks this is one area where discernment of spiritual truths trumps a solely physical interpretation. It's impossible to deny the conditions recorded in Rev 2-3 still exist in the congregants and those called by His name. Further the letters are not addressed to the church specifically, each bit of encouragement, admonition and promises are addressed "To the angel of the church". Proof it's not to a physical location but rather to the guardian of spirituality of the congregation; something that spans all centuries.

The hang up with the Temple is again gap filling. The whole premise is based lack of a direct statement the Temple would be rebuilt so therefore the whole of Revelation and any other eschatological prophecy concerns only 70 AD. This illogic seems diabolical to me. Just fill in gaps and we've proved the point. But there is no direct statement the 70 AD Temple is the last and only one that would stand.  And this idea that John measured the physical Temple in Jerusalem is mental gymnastics most inappropriate. 

"After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here..." John was in heaven, not on earth. I fail to see in the Revelation where John went to physical Jerusalem at any time after he went up. The Temple was part of the vision just like Rev 12 and the dozens of other sights of the Revelation. To say John must have measured the standing Temple in the physical realm one must also say the riders, beasts, events of the trumps, armies and Jesus return must have happened on earth in a physical way, to remain consistent.

And on and on it goes with assumptions and gap filling. 

This view is ignorant of the manifestation of the prophecy in it's full glory.

A common theme in the preterist view is heavy reliance on the ancient historians. I think it's been said to the effect 'Scripture interprets history not the other way round.' or some such. All well and good. However, the reliance on the histories as proof scripture is fulfilled comes with it own inherent pitfalls, doesn't it? I think the axiom isn't applied as purely as one supposes.

What of the missing historical proofs? There's an oxcart full of missing events. It's said we are in the millennial reign. So then when did this occur and what ancient scribe has the record?

Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood,c and His name is The Word of God.

14The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. 15And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter.d He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

"

Or this?

"Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army."

Surely that is recorded somewhere? This is all to happen before the millennial reign which you say we are living in today. The above from Rev 19 occurs before the reign begins. Seems like a major event. Where is it recorded? And Babylon? Any record of Babylon destroyed in one hour, or the lament of the merchants? 

There is quite a list of events and conditions that exist with the 'long reign' and none are present. 

In the end we haven't got to the end. It's coming.

 

 

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is just gap filling plain and simple.

Where is it recorded?

I concur.

Why is it the N.T. writers feature as a marquee, fulfilled prophecies?. But now people say, no, don't look there.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Uriah
punctuation

[Heleadethme]

My take-away from all this is that the prophecies were indeed speaking to Israel/Jerusalem and they were indeed fulfilled.  It makes perfect sense....of course the Lord was talking to Israel first.  And I want to thank you all for your hard work in showing this.  However I believe many of the prophecies are ALSO speaking to the church and that's why there are some details that have not been fulfilled yet.....we dont' necessarily need to be arguing against one another. 

Since Israel is the example that we are to take warning from, well, Jerusalem in 70AD is sobering to think about.  (As well as hope for the remnant of believers who will be kept from God's wrath in the end just as the early Jewish believers in 70 AD were kept and escaped the carnage.)

1Co 10:11

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Rom 11:20-22

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

[Justin Adams]

10 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Since Israel is the example

Did you read Josephus? Not for the faint at heart. It is terrifyingly succinct and brutal.

Our world today is no match for the barbarism of the 1st century. However, it may come upon us this way just prior to the end. I think God raised up Josephus for a very Providential reason.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Heleadethme]

3 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Did you read Josephus? Not for the faint at heart. It is terrifyingly succinct and brutal.

Our world today is no match for the barbarism of the 1st century. However, it may come upon us this way just prior to the end. I think God raised up Josephus for a very Providential reason.

No, I didn't read anything of his....didn't think I would have the stomach for that to be honest.  Yes, the Lord can use anything in His creation to speak to us, even feeding us with ravens (unclean birds) at times, as long as we don't take that to mean He approves of that kind of vessel in general.

I don't have any confidence that fallen man has improved in any way since the first century, wish I could say otherwise.  Though Christianity was having a good leavening affect on the western world for a time.  But even so the holocaust occurred in a supposedly civilized and cultured society....and going by the types of crimes one hears about increasingly and the kind of fare being fed to the young on television these days, well I just hope the Lord comes soon.

[Justin Adams]

2 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

confidence that fallen man has improved

If you control the media and the money then you seemingly have control of everything.

But we can see between these lines that Yeshua does rule and He is still in power.

[Heleadethme]

3 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

If you control the media and the money then you seemingly have control of everything.

But we can see between these lines that Yeshua does rule and He is still in power.

Amen, thank you for that reminder.  Got to keep our eyes above!   I believe the harvest is ripening....the cup of transgression coming to the full so that it can be fully judged, as well as the maturing of righteousness in the faithful.

[Heleadethme]

12 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

If you control the media and the money then you seemingly have control of everything.

But we can see between these lines that Yeshua does rule and He is still in power.

Oh my, something else came to mind:

2Ch 32:31

Howbeit in the business of the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, who sent unto him to enquire of the wonder that was done in the land, God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart.

Could that be why there is such a drought and famine of the word of God in the land?  To allow both those harvests to ripen...?