Can You REJECT The Holy Spirit After Receiving Him At Salvation?

[Guest clancy]

On 5/25/2021 at 4:24 AM, Scott Free said:

"We assume that the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in a believer is permanent. And we'll look at passages in the New Testament where the Holy Spirit's presence in the believer is referred to as a down payment, or the arrabōn, which could be like an engagement ring. And we often don't realize that deposits do get withdrawn, engagements are broken, God did divorce Israel, the Holy Spirit did leave Zion. The Spirit of God is certainly with us and he doesn't plan on going anywhere, unless you tell him to get lost. Link to sermon" - Dr. Michael S. Heiser

If God saves you.....you would never in a million years tell the Holy Spirit to get lost.

Im not saying at times I don’t have hissy fits with the Lord, he’s my Father, I look to him, without him I would surely die, couldn’t live without Him.....which He knows.?

[Scott Free]

54 minutes ago, clancy said:

If God saves you.....you would never in a million years tell the Holy Spirit to get lost.

I pray you are right. Great challenges are going to face us. "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and for the gospel will save it. What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?" Mark 8:35-37

[Guest clancy]

11 minutes ago, Scott Free said:

I pray you are right. Great challenges are going to face us. "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and for the gospel will save it. What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?" Mark 8:35-37

I am not right, only God is right, whoever the Father gives to Jesus....he won’t lose one.?

When we are born again we belong to God...no other.

Edited May 27, 2021 by clancy

[Michael37]

6 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Hebrews 2:3 

"How shall we escape",

This is a tricky question.

Is the speaker and his audience in some situation that they need to escape from? 

Because he said: how shall we escape?  

Like much of the Bible the epistle to the Hebrews is full of comparisons between different options. It begins with a comparison of God speaking in the past and Him speaking in the present.

Heb 1:1-2  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  (2)  Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

This thread invokes the comparison between those past, present, and even future, who on the one hand stay the course and those on the other hand who don't.

For those who don't stay the course there is no escape from damnation. If there was there would be no need for a Saviour or for Salvation.

Heb 3:7-14  Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost says, To day if ye will hear his voice,  (8)  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:  (9)  When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.  (10)  Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.  (11)  So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)  (12)  Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.  (13)  But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.  (14)  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

[Your closest friendnt]

4 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Like much of the Bible the epistle to the Hebrews is full of comparisons between different options. It begins with a comparison of God speaking in the past and Him speaking in the present.

Heb 1:1-2  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  (2)  Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

This thread invokes the comparison between those past, present, and even future, who on the one hand stay the course and those on the other hand who don't.

For those who don't stay the course there is no escape from damnation. If there was there would be no need for a Saviour or for Salvation.

Heb 3:7-14  Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost says, To day if ye will hear his voice,  (8)  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:  (9)  When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.  (10)  Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.  (11)  So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)  (12)  Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.  (13)  But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.  (14)  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Thank you for your kindness. 

You made a good point, as for us to understand the Hebrew writer we need to study their Jewish religion the one they follow before they believed in Jesus Christ. 

Those people together with the Hebrew writer they were not born in Jewish Christian homes. 

And they were practicing the Jewish religion according to the Jewish religious Calendar and the institutions in their religious books. 

They believed when they heard the Gospel from the disciples and they also witness some of the miracles done by them. 

Thank you but what about the "escape " part. Hebrews 2:3 

Those who stayed the course and those who did not stay the course.

 Before they believed in Jesus Christ these people were practicing the Law of Moses and they must be familiar with what the Law of Moses say and the guidelines of how to follow the course of their religious Jewish Calendar and they were also familiar with the consequences for any particular situation that would have been an offense and a violation of the instructions in the Law and the punishment for every violation was known to them before hand. 

There was minimal margin for erroneous understanding. Everything was written down and was very clear and understood by everyone. 

Those people came out from that system where they had their books which they study and follow all their lives from very young because they were born in Jewish homes which were following the Law.

This is the important question: 

One day they were followers of the Law of Moses and before the end of that day they were not anymore.

They had believed in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they were believers. 

Those people were acustom to have their religious books which define their culture their daily customs where it applied and their weekly customs and their cleansing ceremonies and the instructions from the book how to do their rituals. 

Now the time when they believe in Jesus Christ did the preachers of the Gospel gave them the Books of their new faith with all the instructions and their new Chistian customs and their New Christian Religious Calendar? 

Or when they believe they went home and found them selves in a home where everyone else was practising the Jewish Law and customs. Abd then what about them? 

That must have being a big problem for them.

Even bigger if they were from a very conservative family. 

How would they know what is the course of their new religion and what are the possible violations and what was the consequences for each one of them. 

How can we say to them follow the course if not worse things should happen to you than the punishment written in the Law of Moses, and the "Damnation" what would be the offense in the Law of Moses, how can someone in the Law can commit the offense, what is the Actus Reus of this offense that's is rewarded with Damnation and what is "Damnation"? 

Was the Hebrews writer well informed to make this kind of statements, what was the "following the course" meant to him if someone dare to asked him. 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

How would they know what is the course of their new religion and what are the possible violations and what was the consequences for each one of them. 

Exactly. Well said, which is why the epistle to the Hebrews emphasises all the better things about Christ and Christianity so as to purge from dead works: (Check them out)

•  Heb 1:4  Being made so much better than the angels, as he has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
• Heb 6:9  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
• Heb 7:19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
• Heb 8:6  But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
• Heb 9:11  But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
• Heb 9:14-15  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?  (15)  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
• Heb 9:23  It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
• Heb 11:39-40  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:  (40)  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
• Heb 12:22-24  But you are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,  (23)  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,  (24)  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel.

[Your closest friendnt]

12 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Exactly. Well said, which is why the epistle to the Hebrews emphasises all the better things about Christ and Christianity so as to purge from dead works: (Check them out)

•  Heb 1:4  Being made so much better than the angels, as he has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
• Heb 6:9  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
• Heb 7:19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
• Heb 8:6  But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
• Heb 9:11  But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
• Heb 9:14-15  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?  (15)  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
• Heb 9:23  It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
• Heb 11:39-40  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:  (40)  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
• Heb 12:22-24  But you are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,  (23)  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,  (24)  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel.

I am paying attention to everything in your Godly post.

And reading carefully what it is posted it seems that you are in some kind of discourse with the Hebrew writer, or it appears to be so, and how about if it is and then if it is not.

That also it can be seen from the context in your posts and we have to carefully walk the steps of the examination. 

This is about the context of verse two and three in chapter two. 

Hebrews 2:2,3 

2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

* In verse two reference is made to the Covenant of Sinai. 

And we know that this was a Covenant that it does not involve the rest of the world but only the descendants of the twelve tribes. 

Reference is made to the penal provisions for acts of disobedience to the terms of the Covenant.  

Moses presented the Covenant of God to the people and they all agree.

How to enforce the terms of the Covenant was all detailed in their books of instruction which came with their own Religious Calendar.  

God Almighty established his Lordship over this Nation by enforcing the Covenant on the people of this Nation. 

His Moto was "an eye for and eye" and "a tooth for a tooth", every one who was part to that Covenant had to bear their own quilt and iniquity, and the punishment for the quilt snd iniquity could travelled to the descendants of the offender up to the four generations. 

* This is it, those provisions are not carried into the new Covenant between Jesus Christ and God. 

Which Covenant Jesus enter with God for his own  children and this is anyone who believes in him. 

The statement in verse three that those who are in Jesus Christ have to escape greater punishment for disobedience than those who were punished for offenses under the Sinai Covenant and the Law of Moses it is not in the Covenant of the Cross of Jesus Christ. 

This suggestion of greater punishment awaiting those in the New Covenant and the need to escape from that punishment is erronious and is not part of the Provisions of the New Covenant. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Michael37]

6 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This suggestion of greater punishment awaiting those in the New Covenant and the need to escape from that punishment is erronious and is not part of the Provisions of the New Covenant. 

Once again the comparison between Judaism and Christianity is in view. The obsolesence of OT Law in favour of salvation by grace through faith in Christ was strong meat which the Judaisers were resisting.

Heb 5:11-14  Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing you are dull of hearing.  (12)  For when for the time you ought to be teachers, you have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.  (13)  For every one that uses milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.  (14)  But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

These verses are warnings against disobeying God's Word as did some who fell in the wilderness during the Exodus from Egypt. These warnings are inspired by the Holy Spirit to be circulated among the Hebrews originally, and then to be preserved for all that they might receive salvation and escape damnation. 

Heb 4:1  Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Heb 4:10-11  For he who has entered into his rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from his.  (11)  Let’s therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Heb 12:14-15  Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord,  (15)  looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it;

Heb 12:25  See that you don’t refuse him who speaks. For if they didn’t escape when they refused him who warned on the earth, how much more will we not escape who turn away from him who warns from heaven,

The following passage teaches about those who apostasise from the Christian faith. Once again the comparison between Hebrews disregarding Moses' law and those insulting the Spirit of grace is the context.

Heb 10:26-38  For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins,  (27)  but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries.  (28)  A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses.  (29)  How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?  (30)  For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me,” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Again, “The Lord will judge his people.”  (31)  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.  (32)  But remember the former days, in which, after you were enlightened, you endured a great struggle with sufferings;  (33)  partly, being exposed to both reproaches and oppressions; and partly, becoming partakers with those who were treated so.  (34)  For you both had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your possessions, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an enduring one in the heavens.  (35)  Therefore don’t throw away your boldness, which has a great reward.  (36)  For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise.  (37)  “In a very little while, he who comes will come, and will not wait.  (38)  But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Once again the comparison between Judaism and Christianity is in view. The obsolesence of OT Law in favour of salvation by grace through faith in Christ was strong meat which the Judaisers were resisting.

Heb 5:11-14  Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing you are dull of hearing.  (12)  For when for the time you ought to be teachers, you have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.  (13)  For every one that uses milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.  (14)  But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

These verses are warnings against disobeying God's Word as did some who fell in the wilderness during the Exodus from Egypt. These warnings are inspired by the Holy Spirit to be circulated among the Hebrews originally, and then to be preserved for all that they might receive salvation and escape damnation. 

Heb 4:1  Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Heb 4:10-11  For he who has entered into his rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from his.  (11)  Let’s therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Heb 12:14-15  Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord,  (15)  looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it;

Heb 12:25  See that you don’t refuse him who speaks. For if they didn’t escape when they refused him who warned on the earth, how much more will we not escape who turn away from him who warns from heaven,

The following passage teaches about those who apostasise from the Christian faith. Once again the comparison between Hebrews disregarding Moses' law and those insulting the Spirit of grace is the context.

Heb 10:26-38  For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins,  (27)  but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries.  (28)  A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses.  (29)  How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?  (30)  For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me,” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Again, “The Lord will judge his people.”  (31)  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.  (32)  But remember the former days, in which, after you were enlightened, you endured a great struggle with sufferings;  (33)  partly, being exposed to both reproaches and oppressions; and partly, becoming partakers with those who were treated so.  (34)  For you both had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your possessions, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an enduring one in the heavens.  (35)  Therefore don’t throw away your boldness, which has a great reward.  (36)  For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise.  (37)  “In a very little while, he who comes will come, and will not wait.  (38)  But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”

Are you forgetting something that the Covenant of Sina was between the rwelve tribes of "Israel" and their Lord. 

Their children and their children's children were also part of the same Covenant and the rest of the world was excluded. 

Their Lord was the enforcer of the terms of the Covenant between them and him.

If the Israelites sin or abide in iniquity they had to bear the punishment of their sin and their iniquity. 

Before they enter into the Covenant they agree to those terms for them and for their descendants. 

Their Lord asserted his Lordship over them with punishing them for their sins and iniquity. 

Once they sin they could not escape the punishment for their sin. 

Their Lord according to the terms of their Covenant he punished also  the children for the sins of their parents up to the fourth generation. 

For those children their was no way to escape from that. 

They were punished not for their own sins and their was no way to escape from that. 

We are not in the Covenant of Sina now as Gentiles and we were never in the Covenant of Sina before. 

We are not the children of Abraham, we are the children of Jesus Christ who is our Lord and our Savior from the punishment of our sins and our iniquities. 

We are not trying to escape the punishment of our sins and our iniquities. 

Our Lord Jesus Christ does not punish his children for their sins because he was punished for our sins.

I am surprised that you cannot see that.

Did the Rabbi of Hebrews had that truth he did have it because he was taught the faith from the disciples who preached Jesus Christ Crucified for the forgiveness of our sins.

Jesus took the punishment of our sins upon himself. 

We do not have to escape the punishment from our Lord because our Lord does not  punishes his children. 

We are not in the Sinai Covenant as a matter of fact no one is anymore in the Sinai Covenant, since the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross. 

It is impossible for anyone since the Cross to be in the Sinai Covenant. 

The High Priest of that time understood that and went to Pilate and asked him not to write on the header of the Cross.

HNBI because they understood that if indeed Jesus Christ was their promise King...

That they were finished, the Covenant is finished everything finished, all their dreams are finished. Everyone is finished including Abraham, Issac and Jacob but not Mosses and Elijah. 

In Jesus Christ we are in the Life in his Life.

WE BELIEVE IN HIM

whether we live for him or not WE BELIEVE. 

Whether we please him or not we are his children, WE BELIEVE. 

And we are not Devils, we come from a Father and a Mother we are humans.

Jesus Christ died only for the human race. 

 

[Michael37]

36 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Are you forgetting something that the Covenant of Sina was between the rwelve tribes of "Israel" and their Lord. 

Their children and their children's children were also part of the same Covenant and the rest of the world was excluded. 

Their Lord was the enforcer of the terms of the Covenant between them and him.

If the Israelites sin or abide in iniquity they had to bear the punishment of their sin and their iniquity. 

Before they enter into the Covenant they agree to those terms for them and for their descendants. 

Their Lord asserted his Lordship over them with punishing them for their sins and iniquity. 

Once they sin they could not escape the punishment for their sin. 

Their Lord according to the terms of their Covenant he punished also  the children for the sins of their parents up to the fourth generation. 

For those children their was no way to escape from that. 

They were punished not for their own sins and their was no way to escape from that. 

We are not in the Covenant of Sina now as Gentiles and we were never in the Covenant of Sina before. 

We are not the children of Abraham, we are the children of Jesus Christ who is our Lord and our Savior from the punishment of our sins and our iniquities. 

We are not trying to escape the punishment of our sins and our iniquities. 

Our Lord Jesus Christ does not punish his children for their sins because he was punished for our sins.

I am surprised that you cannot see that.

Did the Rabbi of Hebrews had that truth he did have it because he was taught the faith from the disciples who preached Jesus Christ Crucified for the forgiveness of our sins.

Jesus took the punishment of our sins upon himself. 

We do not have to escape the punishment from our Lord because our Lord does not  punishes his children. 

We are not in the Sinai Covenant as a matter of fact no one is anymore in the Sinai Covenant, since the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross. 

It is impossible for anyone since the Cross to be in the Sinai Covenant. 

The High Priest of that time understood that and went to Pilate and asked him not to write on the header of the Cross.

HNBI because they understood that if indeed Jesus Christ was their promise King...

That they were finished, the Covenant is finished everything finished, all their dreams are finished. Everyone is finished including Abraham, Issac and Jacob but not Mosses and Elijah. 

In Jesus Christ we are in the Life in his Life.

WE BELIEVE IN HIM

whether we live for him or not WE BELIEVE. 

Whether we please him or not we are his children, WE BELIEVE. 

And we are not Devils, we come from a Father and a Mother we are humans.

Jesus Christ died only for the human race. 

Your post is a man of straw since at no time have I indicated or implied what you seem to think. Very odd that you are stumbling over the common sense interpretation of the verses that speak to not being able to escape damnation without faith in Christ.