Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[JoeCanada]

12 hours ago, JasperWalls11 said:

you can't show me the Church IN the book of Revelation after chapter four.

Well, that is true. The word "church" is not found after chapter 4.

It is also not found in the Gospel of John.  If we apply that same argument to the gospel of John, we have to conclude that the gospel of John isn’t for the church because the word church isn’t even mentioned in all of its chapters. Can that be true?

While the word "church" is not found, what do you say about the "saints" that are mentioned 13 times.... or "bondservants" mentioned 8 times.... or brethren that are mentioned 4 times? 

Are the "church members"  never called saints, or bondservants, or brethren in the New Testament?......... you know they are.

The overwhelming evidence is that the church is indeed present during the 70th week of Daniel regardless of whether the word is used or not. What one believes must be squarely built on what the Bible clearly says, not on what we might like it to say for whatever reason.

 

[transmogrified]

I had this on another thread, but is there any pre trib person who could give me an answer on this? 

The Issue here is scripture specifically states that when the Lord comes All his saints will be with him..Zech. 14: 5 '...and the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee,' also Paul says in 1 Thess. 3:13 that when he comes it will be with all his saints.

  First is the word 'church' allegedly ONLY refers to those who live and die from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture, then how would it be that both Zech. and Paul are saying all his SAINTS are coming with him, rather than saying when he comes, all the 'church' will be with him?

   And remember he is saying ALL his saints, so if the 'church' is sometimes referred to as saints, and then also those who die during the tribulation are called saints then both Zech. and Paul are not making these types of distinctions.

   Although Pre Trib states that Old Testament Saints and Tribulation saints will be resurrected, this does not also mean raptured, as resurrection and being caught up are two different things. This can be seen in the two prophets...they are first resurrected and then stand on their feet...after this has happened they then hear a voice calling them up to heaven...hence they were first resurrected then after that they were raptured.

    If the Old Testament Saints and the Tribulation are then only resurrected and yet not raptured that means they would not be among the saints who descend from heaven...hence Jesus would not be returning with ALL his saints, but only with PART of his saints.

    It is stated that 1 Thess. 4 is when Christ comes FOR his church, meaning the dead and the living are caught up to heaven...the dead did not get up there just because they were just resurrected...the only way they got up was that they were first resurrected and then caught up. To sum it up, they can't COME DOWN with Jesus if they weren't first UP THERE and they couldn't get UP THERE if they had not been caught up...so if the trib saints and old testament saints are just resurrected but not caught up, that means they would not be UP there, hence they could not COME DOWN here when Jesus comes. Is there one rapture for the 'church' to get up there, and then another one for the trib saints to get up there, or how did they get up there?

[WilliamL]

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It is stated that 1 Thess. 4 is when Christ comes FOR his church, meaning the dead and the living are caught up to heaven...the dead did not get up there just because they were just resurrected...the only way they got up was that they were first resurrected and then caught up.

Prior to the rapture, the souls of saints who die in Jesus ascend "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." 2 Cor. 5:8 

At the rapture, these souls descend with Jesus to be reunited with their resurrected and immortalized bodies. 1 Thes. 4:14-17

[DeighAnn]

If I am following this correctly, everyone here believes 

the heavenly body doesn't go up to heaven but goes into the corruption of the earth, 

to later be raised up in glory and power and incorruptible from the corruption of the earth? 

rather than from the natural body at its death, correct?



Doesn't even touching a DEAD body make one 'unclean' for a day or a week, EITHER way,

I don't understand how that works, a 'never die' being resurrected out from the dead?  

I understand and we all know GOD COULD DO ANYTHING, but would God do something so obviously NOT RIGHT according TO HIS OWN LAWS??  


"Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean." Haggai 2:13 KJV



"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:26 KJV
 

Wouldn't leaving the spiritual body in hell WITHOUT the spirit/soul render it just as dead as the natural one?


47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


Why would we NOT bear the HEAVENLY BODY when we go to heaven BUT INSTEAD bury it in the grave/corruption of the earth when that would render us

 'bodyless' for the whole time we are in the kingdom of God,

NOT TO MENTION when we go before the Judgments Seat of Christ    

waiting to return to the earth, to FINALLY bear THE HEAVENLY BODY

THAT RISES UP OUT FROM the corruption?      makes no sense to me and even searching for such scripture, I can't find it written.  Even those who believe it can't find anything except 'the dead rise'.  

No matter how hard I try, I can't FIND a single reason for ANY saved soul to become LESS than we are NOW, 'lower than the angels' nor to cease being what God created us and to leave behind IN HELL THE MATURED SPIRITUAL BODY.  Why leave THAT BEHIND?  

Wouldn't it be more efficient IN EVERY SINGLE WAY,

for the SAVED to just be raised in power and glory and IN IT/with it/bearing it when being raised up TO HEAVEN, to the Judgment seat of Christ?   Aren't we to be 'receiving' of the things done in the body? 

Without us being 'us' and without a body, what exactly is receiving those things?  Our AIR/spirit?  Our Thoughts?  


Jesus wasn't left in hell so He wouldn't see corruption, how is it our spiritual body going to avoid that if it is "left in the corruption"?

And how does all that work... to be raised in glory and power and incorruptible especially when it says 'neither doth corruption inherit incorruption?

And maybe most of all, why the wait?  Our LABORS end with the death of the flesh and blood.  After that we rest, right?  Why not raise up the 'body' we have been FEEDING the words of God to, the body that has been eating and drinking the body and blood of Christ?  Isn't it written EVERY MAN in his own order?  The living won't prevent the dead?  Seems none of those hold true if all are raised DEAD and at the same time....


And how do the souls under the altar have 'bodies' up there?   And how did Johns fellow servant and 'brethren of the prophets', get FEET?  

I admit, I am not looking for an answer, just looking to get anyone to ask themselves some questions...and then try and find THEIR ANSWERS in the words of God and not in the words of men. 

Kinda like Paul when teaching from the Law and the Prophets...no longer believing what THEY HAD BEEN TELLING HIM those words "REALLY MEANT"

but TEACHING how what is written is what is really meant.  



As for 1 Thess 4, ISN'T IT
THE DEAD (the SPIRITUALLY DEAD, both just and unjust) who ARE RAISED UP?   Not CORPSES and/or ZOMBIES awaiting their 'soul reunion' of some sort. 



THE NEVER DIE WILL RISE AT HIS RETURN, something never written.  The never die knew the way and followed Him.

What is a soul/a being?  God created us in 'our image' BOTH Body and breath WHICH makes up a soul/spirit.    This realm gets this body, that realm gets that body. 

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." 1 Corinthians 15:44 KJV


"But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body." 1 Corinthians 15:38 KJV


"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." Ephesians 3:21 KJV

 

[Montana Marv]

45 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

If I am following this correctly, everyone here believes 

the heavenly body doesn't go up to heaven but goes into the corruption of the earth, 

to later be raised up in glory and power and incorruptible from the corruption of the earth? 

rather than from the natural body at its death, correct?

You are not following it correctly. You have no idea what we believe.

46 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Doesn't even touching a DEAD body make one 'unclean' for a day or a week, EITHER way,

I don't understand how that works, a 'never die' being resurrected out from the dead? 

What is this "never die" of yours.  Those who go up Alive.  In 1 Thes 4:15  These Believers have already been Crucified, Buried and Risen (Resurrected) with Christ.  In is done already.  We are just waiting waiting for our ascension (Rapture), both those who have died, and those still alive in Christ.

You are all over the place with your post.

51 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

As for 1 Thess 4, ISN'T IT
THE DEAD (the SPIRITUALLY DEAD, both just and unjust) who ARE RAISED UP?   Not CORPSES and/or ZOMBIES awaiting their 'soul reunion' of some sort. 

Not even close: The dead in Christ, Those Believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit in Christ are raised up first.  To be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord.  (For Holy Spirit indwelt Believers only).  This is when the Body is reunited with the soul/spirit.  Those Alive in Christ; the Body and soul/spirit is still together.

56 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

THE NEVER DIE WILL RISE AT HIS RETURN, something never written.  The never die knew the way and followed Him.

No.  The never die will will rise when the Bridegroom is retrieving them. (Rapture)  Yes we know the way, and it is through Jesus Christ.  Only those indwelt by the Holy Spirit as like Pentecost know the way.  We are ready, watching and waiting.  The 5 foolish virgins were watching and waiting, but not ready.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." Ephesians 3:21 KJV

Do you really believe this, We do.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[transmogrified]

14 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Prior to the rapture, the souls of saints who die in Jesus ascend "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." 2 Cor. 5:8 

At the rapture, these souls descend with Jesus to be reunited with their resurrected and immortalized bodies. 1 Thes. 4:14-17

All the saints will still not return with Jesus in   a Pre Trib position because the living trib saints are not resurrected of course because they were still alive, but they go on to allegedly live in the MK in natural bodies...they were saints who were alive and remained unto the coming of the Lord...the real Second Coming, however because pre trib did not provide for them another rapture  they will not be coming with the other saints...scripture says we shall ALL be changed at the last trump...not all be changed except the tribulation saints..

   Also the resurrection picture with the two witnesses is not that their spirit comes down from heaven to be renunited with their body...NO...the two prophets ascended up in glorified bodies here on the earth and they will come back in glorified bodies...just like Jesus....when it says God will bring those that sleep back with him, he is not talking about bringing their spirits back as it is apparent BOTH the living and dead are changed in a moment...meaning both groups received glorified bodies before either group ascended up...God will not deal with the living trib saints any different than the rest of his saints...The living trib saints are in the category of 'those that are alive and remain' at the second coming...the only reason they are not changed is because pre trib places the rapture before the second coming so it would be impossible for all to be changed at the same time, because according to pre trib the rapture / resurrection would take place BEFORE any trib saints have been killed and also the tribulation period had not even started yet because that is why it is callled a pre trib rapture...they do not have the OT saints included in the resurrection for any more of a good reason that they have re-located the rapture to before the tribulation. By placing the rapture / resurrection before the trib they automatically place themselves out of the scriptural parameters, as ALL would not be changed at the same time, as it specifically states...we shall ALL be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye....not some changed in a moment and the other group changed at another moment..NO...ALL changed in a moment means ALL changed in a moment..the alleged church age saints do not come back in spirit form to be re-united with their body...NO...they have their body here on the ground and then ascend up and return in that body...there is no exception for trib saints...if they were all changed at the Second Coming there would be none of this to deal with....and to be sure...there will be no rapture if its not the one God has ordained, so its not like we can patch up the one that was made up...no it was made up and so it will never take place anyway...all it is doing is misleading people into a vain hope...

[DeighAnn]

12 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

You are not following it correctly. You have no idea what we believe.

I know.  You all believe something different and none of you can put the whole thing into words. WHY?  IDK, NO FOUNDATION?  Nothing written but some ambiguous verses all used to support teaching others to fly away to safety...      

LOOK FOR a verse with THE BRIDE OF CHRIST, The CHURCH AGE, OR even a single prophecy where GOD removes anyone to KEEP THEM FROM anything.  He doesn't need to...

AND I CAN'T LOOK any of it UP in the words of God because NOTHING IS WRITTEN, it's all hidden or secret, or what IT MEANS everywhere else in the BIBLE  it no longer means at least not when it comes to the verses you all put forth.  

KEPT FROM EVIL God has been doing that ALL ALONG and He has never taken anyone to heaven BEFORE THE WORK WAS DONE.  

NOT SUFFER WRATH  Putting on the gospel armor is all we need.  God tells us His WRATH falls upon THEM NOT US, so why doesn't ANYONE who believes in the pre trib rap BELIEVE THAT? 

Kept from the hour just means we won't be tempted by the tempter or overcome by the one sent to overcome because we have GODS widsom and knowledge.  


WE ARE NOT TO FEAR the death of the flesh, so WHY would GOD need to SAVE us from it?   We are to be proved, so why would God remove us from it, given power over all our enemies

HE ALREADY DIED for us and to give us these things AND YET THAT WASN'T ENOUGH?   

We have been given power over all our enemies, and are not to seek to save our lives
How can that not REMAIN TRUTH?

Why don't pre tribs believe
31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

WHY DO PRE TRIBS INSIST THEY ARE NOT THE SHEEP FOR THE SLAUGHTER?  

Or am I to ASSUME the pre tribs no longer count the book of Romans to apply to them, the church, but IT ALSO GOES to the Jews like the Gospels and the Acts? 

By the time I am done NONE OF THE NEW TESTEMENT WILL APPLY to the anyone but THOSE whos
root is of ISRAEL
as well as the branches who are of Israel be they  natural or grafted in....and it is to all generations, not ALL BUT ONE.  


So you are a thousand percent correct.  I HAVE NO IDEA what you believe and EVEN WORSE is NEITHER DO YOU.  

HERE is the challenge EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU FAIL every single time.  Shoot I have yet to see anyone put forth any thing  in GODS WORDS that say what THEY SAY IT SAYS.  

Show the doctrine from beginning to end.  GIVE every verse that speaks of it from both old and new.  

What is the basis?  

What you are going to give is a bunch of REASONS why what is written isn't WHAT IS  MEANT and/or REASONS and EXPLANATIONS on why YOU BELIEVE what you believe

but NOTHING I can go to the words of God and SEE AS A TRUTH MYSELF.  I will receive no outline no nothing

AND IT'S ALL BECAUSE
Its written somewhere else - but it isn't
I've made you mad - so you won't
I need to go back over the whole thread cause it's in there - but it isn't


or what ever excuse will be put forth yet again.  ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING other that it.  

And do you know why?  Because it has no beginning and it has no end, this depends on that which depends on that which depends on that which depends on this which depends on that and NOT ONE OF THEM CAN STAND.  

I know time for the trinity...excuse.  BUT that doesn't have BILLIONS OF SOULS LEAVING THE PLANET

FOLLOWED BY 'CHRISTIANS EVERYWHERE' BEING KILLED

Nor does it have people rejecting FAITH till they are given a sign and once the sign is given they somehow become FULL MATURE ELECT CHRISTIANS in time to stand and overcome and be killed in the name of GOD.  

Got them picking up your crosses and ENDURING TO THE END

AND THE CHURCH 'AGE'

You are right some of you believe every Christian some believe you have to believe in the rapture

But all of you pass the buck and seek to save yourselves from what Christians are supposed to be doing.  

Please surprise me and instead of getting mad and giving me nothing, PUT FORTH YOUR DOCTRINE SO I CAN UNDERSTAND.  
 

 

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

What is this "never die" of yours.  Those who go up Alive.  In 1 Thes 4:15  These Believers have already been Crucified, Buried and Risen (Resurrected) with Christ.  In is done already.  We are just waiting waiting for our ascension (Rapture), both those who have died, and those still alive in Christ.

You are all over the place with your post.

MY 'never die'???  

Those who are raised up 'ALIVE' are those who have suffered the first death, of the body.   

And how are those who are alive/never die raised up at that death?  In power, in glory and incorruptible. 

 

SO I DON'T GO ALL OVER THE PLACE LET'S FOLLOW GODS ORDER OF OPERATION

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

 

this persons flesh body dies...26And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?.

 

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them

 

How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

thou sowest but bare grain, AND God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

What is written about OUR RESURRECTION? our body?  Does OUR SPIRIT GO to heaven with a body?  Not according to what is written because it says  It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So that puts ALL' THE SAVED'  IN HEAVEN, IN BODIES, WITH CHRIST

UPON THE common DEATH, THE DEATH OF THE FLESH

UNTIL
 

also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

Where do we read about that?
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armieswhich were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

WHAT happens when that day comes?  

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

Back to Thess

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

No SAVED SOUL who DIES IS waiting for ANY OTHER SAVED SOUL TO DIE TO RESURECT up to heaven.  NO SAVED SOUL IS WAITING FOR CHRIST TO RETURN TO RESURRECT.  YOU DIE AND 'EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER' returns to GOD.  

 

NOTICE NOTHING WRITTEN ABOUT PRE TRIB.  NO METION OF TRIB.  JUST THE ORDER IN WHICH GOD IS DOING THINGS

 

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

THOSE WHO DIED AND WERE RESURRECTED BECAUSE THEY NEVER DIE are 'raised alive', AKA NEVER FACE THE GWTJ OR THE LAKE OF FIRE

 

and ARE RETURNING WITH HIM, IN BODIES FROM HEAVEN.....

AT WHICH TIME 

THE DEAD will rise....who are these DEAD?   Jesus said 'let the dead bury their dead', so we know it is the dead who are in in the place of the dead who rise. 

 

can't be any of the saved as THEY ARE RETURNING WITH HIM

TRUE, some are 'in Christ' and I SPECULATE THEY ARE 'in Christ'  as they will be found in the book of life in 1000 years, but can't say for sure...just know they aren't THE LIVING or the NEVER DIE...

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

AND IT IS AT THIS TIME THE RAPTURE, now POST TRIB  FINALLY TAKES PLACE...at the last trump in the TWINKLING OF AN EYE

the alive and remaining are CHANGED

they are alive and remaining because they have  NOT TAKEN THE MARK OF THE BEAST  they have endured to the end

the time shortened so there would be SOME who weren't deceived

 

 

but what happens ONCE ALL THE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE CHANGED???

NO ONE LEFT 

 

Once all the alive and remaining have been changed, THERE IS NO MORE FLESH AND BLOOD BODIES UPON THE EARTH.  


So NO TRIB CAN FOLLOW. 

If that were indeed to take place pre trib

then WHO would be here to worship the beast, no one to take the mark in a flesh and blood body???

all the alive and remaining are CHANGED....

because those who are HIS AT HIS return are the alive and remaining.  Those who WERE NOT became bird food.  

 

So,

HOW does the LORD return and grab all the ALIVE AND REMAINING

 

and still leave any alive and remaining for a trib?

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Not even close: The dead in Christ, Those Believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit in Christ are raised up first.  To be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord.  (For Holy Spirit indwelt Believers only).  This is when the Body is reunited with the soul/spirit.  Those Alive in Christ; the Body and soul/spirit is still together.

You talk one thing and then the other.  

THE DEAD in Christ

AREN'T/CAN'T BE

THE ALIVE/never die IN CHRIST.  

To be ONE OF THE DEAD, in Christ OR NOT,  and in hell and waiting until His return

can ONLY MEAN ONE DIDN'T KNOW THE WAY, They didn't know THE LIFE, They didn't know THE RESURRECTION

because IF THEY DID

they would have FOLLOWED HIM, to be where HE WAS AND they would have been coming back WITH HIM.  



You go from saying one thing to the other.

EITHER WE RISE UP ALIVE AND RETURN ALIVE

OR

OR WE DESCEND AS DEAD AND WAIT TO RISE WHEN HE RETURNS


WHICH IS IT?   HEAVEN OR HELL?   CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS

and we wonder why people are leaving the churches

[DeighAnn]

14 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Not even close: The dead in Christ, Those Believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit in Christ are raised up first.  To be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord.  (For Holy Spirit indwelt Believers only).  This is when the Body is reunited with the soul/spirit.  Those Alive in Christ; the Body and soul/spirit is still together.

How many bodies do you think we get?  Why would you get rid of the body that was raised up heaven for a body raised up from the corruption of the earth?  That doesn't make any sense.  

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV


ALL BUT A GRAIN of this body is dissolved and goes back to DUST.  

AND TO EVERY SEED GOD GIVES A BODY.  

How many times do you think that happens?  

Our spirits go to heaven.  The SPIRIT animates the body, doesn't it?  There are SOULS under the altar in heaven getting ROBES.  A soul is body and breath, isn't it?  

where is it written THE SPIRIT without a body rises up????????


35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?


There are the dead of the common death who never die, they go living.  TO BE ALIVE means body soul spirit.  THAT is how GOD MADE US.  We are IN IMAGE.  

We STAY in IMAGE.  Image takes BODY.  

ONE BODY DIES, THE NEXT BODY TAKES OVER.  HEAVEN OR HELL, FLESH AND BLOOD BODIES ARE GOING BACK TO DUST.  

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.


There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Why on EARTH would we not BEAR the HEAVENLY WHEN GOING TO HEAVEN?

God takes care of all those who are HIS in their own order, 



IT IS THE DEAD who are all raised up at one time....

Not the living.  The living and the dead are like the good and the evil.  

But even amongst the dead there are good and evil

And at the end of the Lords day there will be the FINAL separation of good and evil

Then the NHNE....


I can't wait to see what Scripture you use for all these things you put forth.