Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[OakWood]

I have a few questions, aimed mainly at pre-tribbers because there are still a few things about their belief in the timing of the rapture that puzzles me.

Assuming a pre-trib rapture:

1/ Christians disappear - how does the rest of the World explain this?

Now, I've read previous posts that try to explain the great disappearance using New-Age excuses, Aliens and so forth. But we have to assume that there are lukewarm believers, people who have read the Bible but never really believed and non-Christians who know many Christians and may have even discussed the rapture with them. (If you're an Atheist and all your family are believers, aren't you going to be suspicious when all your close relatives mysteriously disappear?).

Such people may be aware of what has happened and may start to panic. They will repent and turn to Christ. I can't believe that the rapture can simply be explained away by other means. There will be many who suspect that the rapture has occurred and many Christians wondering why they missed it. They will be in a position to pull their socks up and start preaching to others, warning them not to take the mark. Unless of course, everyone is raptured even if their faith is poor, including fallen Christians, false Christians, sinning Christians, people who used to believe but don't anymore - which of course, is ridiculous.

2/ Who are the people who are beheaded, the ones that endure the Tribulation?

If Christians are all gone, who is left to save them? How would they know about the Beast? Who is going to be left to read a Bible to them? Surely they would simply take the mark just so that they can eat. They wouldn't know any better.

The mark cannot all be just about the stick, there has to be a carrot too. Why would anyone want to take the mark anyway, unless the Beast promised them something? 'Believe in me and you shall have all the Earthly desires that you wish' - that sort of thing. Remember there are people who will worship the Beast. He won't just be stomping around the Earth, frightening everyone and turning all of humankind against him. There will be people who admire him and respect him, and blinded by their own greed and lust, they will want what he is offering them. That is why they will take the mark. The ones who see through him will not take the mark and he will punish them for it.

But how can these people see him for what he really is if all the good has been taken out of the World? Without the word of God, how will they know? Technically, they won't be believers and there is no church left to help them or teach them.

Of course, using the arguments in point number 1, there WILL be people who can help them and teach them, the Christians who missed the rapture! But why use failed and weak Christians to try and save people. Does God not love all of us, does he not want to save as many of us as possible? Would it not be better to leave behind Christians of great faith and strength?

It's these two things that puzzle me about the pre-trib rapture more than anything else.

[Montana Marv]

WillowWood

Your questions:

Assuming a pre-trib rapture:

1/ Christians disappear - how does the rest of the World explain this?

Why should we care, for we are in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing else will matter for us. A lot of fence sitters will not make it, but they have knowledge of the Truth. Many will be deceived by a delusion.

Another quote:

2/ Who are the people who are beheaded, the ones that endure the Tribulation?

If Christians are all gone, who is left to save them? How would they know about the Beast? Who is going to be left to read a Bible to them? Surely they would simply take the mark just so that they can eat. They wouldn't know any better.

We as Believers do not save anyone. That is the responsibility of the HS and Jesus. We are to plant and to water, the increase belongs to God. They will know about the beast, because he had a fatal wound and the fatal wound was healed, because of this the whole world followed the beast. Rev 13. Bibles will probably be destroyed. Most people don't know any better today.

When the beast comes on the scene, there are 70 weeks remaining, plus another 30 days and another 45 days. Then the Second Coming. With a pre trib Rapture, we only know it happens before the beast is revealed. Unknown. By the time the beast is revealed and the false prophet with him we know the amount of time remaining before the Second Coming. I am sure that the post trib people would then know the exact time for the Rapture (which is an unknown time, but they know it). It does not take a rocket scientist to do the math. The same for a mid trib Rapture, 42 months after the beast is revealed (they also know its time (an unknown time)). Pre wrath Rapture is some where in between. Just before a known series of event, which are after many other events. Like bobbing for apples, you will eventually get one.

The Pre Trib position for the Rapture is the ONLY position that cannot be calculated. Each other position has a starting point to reference. They can be plus or minus 3 1/2 years. Kind of like date setting. The odd thing is that only God the Father knows when the Rapture will happen. It is NOT revealed in Scripture. So one can only assume. If post rib, they assumed correctly for an unknown timed event. The same with mid or pre wrath positions. We have no guarantees, Our deaths may preceed the Rapture. Many will or already have. We are to be Ready Now, not 7 years from now. I have 7 years to wait once the beast of Rev 13 is revealed, or 3 1/2 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[holys]

the way i see it is just to be ready at all times..for none of us really know are we would have the answer already..amen have oil in your lamps..amen

[missmuffet]

the way i see it is just to be ready at all times..for none of us really know are we would have the answer already..amen have oil in your lamps..amen

By George I think you've got it.

[iamlamad]

Willowwood, I tend to disagree slightly with Montana Marv. In my mind the timing of the rapture is crystal clear. But one must understand the intent of the author, the Holy Spirit, to see it. Let's begin with Paul.

1 Thes 4:17-18 is the classic rapture verse. Please read it again, but don't stop there! Remember, Paul did not put in chapter headings! Notice that just three verses after the classic rapture verse, Paul mentions the Day of the Lord, as if these two events were back to back events. In fact, he then SHOWS US they are back to back events. Notice in chapter 5, Paul gives is a perfect paradigm. Remember, para means two things side be side, such as parallel or paratrooper. The digm means comparison. In Chapter 5 Paul makes a comparison. There is a SUDDENLY - a sudden event. Paul tells us that at this sudden event there are two separate outcomes for two groups of people.

You will see when you study this, Paul has not left the subject of the rapture, but is giving us the TIMING of the rapture. He tells us at this suddenly, those living in the light get "salvation" and "get to live together with Him." In chapter 4, after telling us about the rapture, Paul says, "so shall we ever be with the Lord." Notice: "get to live together with Him." & "so shall we ever be with the Lord." These two phrases are saying the same thing. Paul is still talking about the rapture!

Now the other group, those living in the darkness, do not get salvation, they get SUDDEN DESTRUCTION.

So what is the sudden event that causes the sudden destruction? OF COURSE it is the rapture of the church in chapter 4. Paul did not leave the subject of the rapture, but goes on to explain the timing! So what is this "sudden destruction?" For that, we must go to Matthew 27:51-52. Notice "the earth did quake.....and the graves were opened." This is showing us the resurrection of the elders of the Old Testament. Many at this time have been dead a very long time. When God brings together the atoms or perhaps quarks that made up their body so long ago, it caused a massive earthquake. When the dead in Christ rises, you can bet, there will again be a massive earthquake, but this time it will be felt around the entire world, for the saints have died around the world. We also see an earthquake when the two witnesses are risen. The Old testament saints are risen "on the last day" (see John 6) which will be at the 7th vial; there you will find the most massive earthquake of all time, as God brings together once more, the atoms or quarks that once made up their bodies. Read it: you will see it is so massive, the mountains disappear.

If we look in Revelation for the first massive earthquake, we find it at the 6th seal. How amazing, in the chapter following, chapter 7, the raptured church is seen in heaven.  You see, Willowwood, the timing of the rapture is NOT such a mystery. Don't be led astray in chapter 7 by the two words, "great tribulation." These two words do not always mean those days following the abomination. John has not at this time even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the second half and those days of great tribulation Jesus spoke about. No, all John is telling us here is that at the time of the rapture, people will be being put to death for their testimony around the world. It is in half the world already. No tribulation can be greater than one murdered for the gospel. They cannot be killed twice! For them it was great.

Now go back and read about the 5th seal, for there is yet another proof of this timing of the rapture. They are told they must wait until the last martyr has been killed as they were killed. This is not speaking of the manner of death, for it is different for many martyrs. No, what John is saying is, they will have to wait for the LAST "church age" martry, for this group are all church age martyrs. So what will make the final church age martyr? Of course the END of the church age. The rapture of the church ENDS the church age. What is the next event in Revelation after the 5th seal? It is the rapture of the church as the first event of the 6th seal, though not seen. All we read is the massive earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising.

Just so you get the perspective, WHERE does John actually begin the 70th week? If you read the last sentence of the 6th chapter, the final thought of the 6th seal, it says they knew the "day of His wrath" has come. So what comes next?

We must back up for a second here, to explain John's break between the 6th and 7th seal. At a play, when they close the curtain between acts, what happens behind the curtain? Of course, they are rearranging the set. This is what John is doing. Imagine the curtain closes at the 6th seal, but you get to see behind the curtain. There are two events that MUST happen before the wrath of God is poured out in the trumpet judgments. First, the 144,000 Israeli men must be sealed. Second, the rapture must take place, because God has promised to keep us from His wrath, so He set no appointment for us on earth. Once these two things are accomplished, then we see the 7th seal offiially opens the 70th week and day of the Lord with the 30 minutes of silence.

So in truth, the timing of the rapture is not such a mystery as some think it is. It is pretrib, and at the same time, it is before the wrath of God is poured out. But make no mistake, His wrath is felt throughout the entire 70th week. And to the distraction of prewrathers, His wrath comes at the same time Satan's wrath is felt through the actions of the Antichrist and the false prophet. So much of the book of Revelation is about the 70th week of Daniel; from chapter 8 all the way to chapter 16. The abomination or the exact midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet. So the days of great tribulation will begin at the 7th trumpet and continue on to approximately the first vial, which is an unknown time into the second half of the week.  Lamad

[Guest]

Its nice to see Christians defending the defenseless

 

~

 

Can You Dig It?

 

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:18

 

No?

 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:5-6

[Fez]

the way i see it is just to be ready at all times..for none of us really know are we would have the answer already..amen have oil in your lamps..amen

Amen...

 

I love this, it is like poetry....

 

Isa 55:10  "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, 

Isa 55:11  so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. 

[missmuffet]

I believe in the pre-trib rapture theory after much prayer and studying all of the theories.Pre-trib remains in my heart as the one I want to stand behind.

The Church is not appointed to wrath 1Thessalonians 9-10,5:9

Believers will not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord 1Thessalonians 5:1-9

[OakWood]

I find myself swaying between pre and post after reading this thread. It appears to be a very complex puzzle to solve.

[iamlamad]

I find myself swaying between pre and post after reading this thread. It appears to be a very complex puzzle to solve.

 

 

WillowWood, there is one aspect  you may have not thought of. there is much prophecy in the world today. Some of couse is false prophecy. But there are real prophets of God that are prohesying. I read after serveral that I am sure hear from heaven.

 

First, what does God say about this?

 

1 Corinthians 14:29

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

 

So read and judge. I have never read any prophet prophesying of a rapture at the end.

 

(Words Received from Our LORD by Susan, May 29, 2013)

I am ready to give you Words.  The hour is approaching for MY Return.  I am near, even at the door. Children, you act as if this event will never happen.  You act as if MY Coming is a spoof or a joke.  You act as if your GOD does not exist and MY Words are not good.  You treat ME as if I am a liar and the signs that I put out are all being ignored.

The signs are for your benefit.  I gave signs so that you can know to be ready.  This is all for your benefit. I know when I am coming.  I know the day of MY arrival.  I know the day I will be approaching for the church.  You, on the other hand, need to watch for the signs.  This is MY Gift, MY Warning for all those who watch, to pay attention.  This is for those who want to be ready at MY Coming, for those who desire to be ready when I come for the church.

I could have come without warning but this is not MY Way.  I want the people to know I care enough to give them warning, that I love them enough to give them time to prepare.  Without this warning most of you would be lost.  As it is, with the warning, most are still not paying attention.  The only thing left now is for MY Coming.  I can come at any moment but most of you are not watching and you will be left behind or lost in the coming sudden destruction.

If you are caught up in “sudden destruction” apart from ME and MY Rapture you will go to hell.  If you doubt this, read MY Word.  MY Word is clear.  If you spend time in MY Word you will see that the signs that I put forth are now happening in the world.  I have not misled anyone.  It has all been laid out before you.

Make your preparations now to be ready for MY Coming.  Don’t be deceived by someone who tells you something different.  Take time and read MY Word for yourself.  Dig deep into MY Word, get to know ME for yourself.  Come to ME for a personal relationship.  Don’t just take the word of others that I am not coming soon.  Learn the Truth for yourself.  You will be held accountable when you face ME someday, you alone.  Get to know your GOD.  Don’t waste another moment.

 

FATHER GOD, (YAHUSHUA’s FATHER)

 

 

If we are to judge this, maybe the very first thought: NO ONE KNOWS the day nor the hour, not even Jesus. But notice who signed this letter:it is from the Father. He knows. Since Jesus is a very part of Him, when Jesus comes He is coming in Jesus.This is a very pretrib prophecy.

 

 

 

(Words Received from Our LORD by Susan, May 31, 2013)

 

Yes, I can give you Words:

 

It is I, your LORD.  I am coming.  I spoke it and I will fulfill it!  It is MY Word—MY Word never fails.

 

The hour is approaching for this fulfillment.  You will continue to see events leading up to this event: things spoken of so long ago.  These events will intensify as MY Coming is close.

 

Don’t let MY Coming take you by surprise.  Let these signs speak to your spirit: wake you up.  I do not want you to be paralyzed with fear, but I do want you to have a healthy fear of GOD.  Don’t fall asleep at the wheel when I come for MY own.  Many will be caught unawares—but not caught up to safety: horror and terror will be their reward for not paying attention and for not watching and seeking ME for MY Salvation and Guidance.

 

This hour approaches and the majority cannot focus on their GOD.  The world is just too enticing.  Soon the enticement of the world will go flat: the flavor will be a bitter pill to swallow.

 

Seek your GOD.  Surrender your all to ME.  I am worth knowing.  I bled and died for you.  I gave you life and your being.  Come to know ME today.  It is almost time for these events to take place.  Hide under MY Wing.  Come under MY Blood Covering.  There is no other place to retreat…

 

I am the SHELTER in a STORM—I AM

 

 

Again a very PREtrib prophecy. No word of seeing the man of sin first.

 

"Run from all evil. Run into MY Arms. The world that I created for you is dying and decaying little by little. It is a stench to MY FATHER. HE can hardly tolerate it anymore. HE is ready to take MY bride out and throw a big party for ME in Heaven. You are all invited. Just make sure you get there. You must “RSVP” by submitting your life and everything you love and enjoy and look forward to, to ME. Submit your ALL to ME."

 

Again very pretrib.

 

RAPTURE AND MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB

Let US begin. These Words are for whoever will receive them: Today I am going to talk about the coming rapture, the removal of the bride, MY church.

This moment arrives quickly. Many children are not ready. They fight ME and cling to the world. They want to walk in the ways of the world. They rush to and fro and pay no heed to the warnings I am giving… Soon the warnings will be done and I must come and the bride will be removed. She will be taken out of the picture.

.

Her identity is unknown to the world. She is well hidden. I have her cloistered away in safe keeping. MY Light shines through her—the last remaining light on earth. Time is short and soon this light will go out. MY sent ones will leave to their heavenly home safe from the tyranny on earth.

This rapture event will be a large event, the removal of MY ready children. No such event will ever be like it in human history. There will never be anything like it before or after. It is the greatest “Exodus” of all time.

MY children will depart in a moment and receive new glorified bodies. These bodies will be resilient and eternal. They will follow after the pattern of the glorified body I possess. I am the FIRST FRUIT of many others. These children will experience a life they have never known before, a glorious life, life everlasting.

 

There will be many wonderful things ahead for MY raptured children. Let ME give you a peek: When MY children arrive, they will be greeted by their loved ones: family and friends already in the heavenlies. I will be looking on. This is a moment of great glory. What a gift to be reunited with family long missed… Then MY children will be ushered to the great Marriage Supper of the LAMB. I will preside over this event.

 

The table will be lavishly prepared: every accoutrement will be provided. The details of this event will be astounding. MY children will be seated in front of a place setting with their name lettered in pure gold. Each place setting will have golden utensils embedded with jewels. There will be solid gold plates also studded with jewels. The tablecloth will be of pure silk spun with golden threads.  Light will shine through the weave. The cups will be gold with jewels around the rim.

Each place setting will have a gift especially for each child. The gift will be a precious reminder of MY Relationship with this child. It will be unique for each child. Each gift will have special meaning to each child of OUR long lasting relationship. There will be many surprises at this Event – MY Marriage Supper.

 

Each child will have an angel who waits on him. The food is prepared in MY Heavenly Kitchens. Nothing will be amiss. All food items will be of heavenly proportions, food from earth that is recognized and food from heaven never seen before. Beauty unspeakable will be this table setting.  MY Table will be full of light: candles of light, beautiful Menorahs. MY children will wear robes of light. They will exude light as there will be no shadows....MY children will also be shown their mansions: O’ daughter the beauty, the splendor. Eye has not seen or ear has not heard what waits MY glorious bride who loves ME. Daughter, these mansions will be more delightful than anything earth has to offer. Nothing can compare to the magnificence of what MY bride has in store for her. These homes will suit the taste and interests of each child. No two mansions are alike. Each one is different from the other.

 

Again, very pretrib.

 

From a different message:

 

This world will soon not look the same as MY opponent and evil men take over and the light of MY bride is removed from your presence. She is bright with MY HOLY SPIRIT WHO restrains the evil from reigning in full force. Soon this restraint will be removed and the antichrist will rise up to destroy those who are left behind who turn back to ME for their salvation. HE will not allow anyone who claims ME as their SAVIOR and GOD to run free or to live in peace. All will know the penalty of being loyal to ME.  This tyranny is forming now. Don’t be blinded by your lack of knowledge and resistance to Truth – MY Truth.

 

Come to your senses. READ MY WORD. Awaken to the understanding of the hour you live in and make things right with your GOD. SURRENDER to ME in a COMPLETE and FULL SURRENDER. REPENT to MY Holiness. FORGIVE those around you leaving no stone unturned. Come to ME and RECEIVE A FULL OIL LAMP.

 

 

Part of one prophecy:

 

I do not take lightly to those who reject ME. The outcome will be very bad for those who choose against ME for the wooden idols and love of mammon. These will be left behind to face the worst. Very soon this will play out. Those who will be left behind will become sober quickly after they learn the error of their ways and the tyranny they are about to face. They will have missed their escape and salvation from tribulation and their losses will be great....  The world will soon never be the same again. It is about to face horror and destruction: the like has never been seen before. It will only be MY Grace and Mercy that will finally put an end to it all and only by MY Power will the evil be stopped. Men cannot stop what is coming and they will not be able to keep it at bay. Fear and destruction and terror will reign supreme over the earth during the greatest tribulation man has ever seen.

Come out with ME when I call up MY few, MY bride, MY select. Only a few are going—very few. These ones know ME in the secret place where very few are willing to tread. Only a few want to make time to really know their GOD. This is what I require: intimacy. MY Word is very clear about this matter. Come now and get to know ME in the intimate place. There is no replacement for this closeness.  The world cannot compare to eternity spent with GOD.

Children, your time is running out. MY enemy is getting closer and closer to his goal of tyranny over the people.

 

You see, still very very PRETRIB.

 

From another letter:  Today children, I want to address you with new Words, Words that will make you sit up and listen: I am coming to retrieve only those who are in MY Will: MY Perfect Will.  All others will be left back to face the worst atrocities and events.

 

This world will soon fall into evil hands and be consumed by evil after MY true bride, the church is removed and taken to her new home prepared for her safekeeping and delight.  You are in danger of expiring apart from GOD for all eternity.

Awaken and see what is about to happen to you.  I cannot take you with ME if you remain stiff-necked, stubborn, and rebellious to MY Perfect Ways.  Only ONE NARROW ROAD leads to Truth, MY Salvation, MY Perfect Will.  Come ask ME for directions down the NARROW ROAD and I will lead you—only I can do this.

I AM THE NARROW ROAD!

 

This is just a sample from http://end-times-prophecy.com/blog/?p=3459

 

It is 100% PRETRIB, simply because GOD is PRETRIB.

 

Lamad

Edited June 24, 2013 by iamlamad