Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Selah7 said:

Those who don’t make the first resurrection will go through the .  Millennium.  They are called the (spiritually) dead and will be tested again at the GWTJ.  Understand?

 Do you understand the LIVING are not resurrected at the last day, but just the dead so it isn't 'A FIRST RESURRECTION' IN any way shape or form?

Do you understand that the ones RESURRECTED on the last day REMAIN MORTAL?  liable to die?  FACING THE 2ND DEATH?

all because 'corruption doesn't inherit incorruption' so that EVERYONE RESURRECTED

(AS opposed to those who are CHANGED)

are

NOT OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION?



Do you understand the LIVING are raised up at the death of the natural body

and NOT AT THE LAST DAY? 

and that happens EVERY SINGLE DAY and has since the graves were opened back when the New Covenant came in?  

The New Covenant that gave us the PERFECT SACRIFICE, the blood washes us clean 

SO  we are found without sin, so we have no wages of DEATH to be paid so WE NEVER BECOME DEAD, even though our flesh body dies, as in Adam it has a shelf life?  

 

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Do you understand the LIVING are not resurrected at the last day, but just the dead so it isn't 'A FIRST RESURRECTION' IN any way shape or form?

Scripture please.  D, it’s the first resurrection to immortality. 

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Do you understand that the ones RESURRECTED on the last day REMAIN MORTAL?  liable to die?  FACING THE 2ND DEATH?

These, once again, are those who don’t partake in the First Resurrection.  They are mortal, liable to die and go through the 1,000 years.  (yawn)

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Selah7

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Scripture please.  D, it’s the first resurrection to immortality. 

Asked and answered.  



 

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Selah7 said:

These, once again, are those who don’t partake in the First Resurrection.  They are mortal, liable to die and go through the 1,000 years.  (yawn)

You repeated what I said almost word for word, what is that about? 

 

[DeighAnn]

11 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Those who don’t make the first resurrection will go through the .  Millennium.  They are called the (spiritually) dead and will be tested again at the GWTJ.  Understand?

As well as those who DO make the first resurrection go through the Millennium. They are called the living.  

 The only ones who don't go through the Millennium are those who remain in hell death and the sea, who are given up after the dead are judged.  

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

On 2/19/2023 at 2:41 AM, Diaste said:

Surely the spirit never dies, no matter if that spirit is of the righteous or unrighteous. I think you need to make the distinction here as to just what you mean.

OUR BEING doesn't die.  

I agree. The Spirit is eternal.

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

This life is the SEEN life, the natural life, the natural body, the chose life or death time.  

The life that FOLLOWS the FIRST DEATH

is UNSEEN now, but

is the spiritual life, in the spiritual body, the EITHER CHOSE life or death time.  The go to heaven or hell.  

I can agree with this.

 

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body,  EXACTLY AS IT IS WRITTEN

Okay. You find this part to be immediate upon the death of the physical body?

 

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Is that distinct enough?  I can add detail and Scripture if you would like.

Maybe you are explaining it and I'm just not getting. Allow me try again.

When we die as a true believer, in the Spirit, we go to be with Jesus immediately?

And with this we are given new spiritual bodies that never die? Like right away?

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If you are a CHRISTIAN, you have died and been raised.  NOT METAPHYSICAL but spiritually.  

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Romans 6

Facts.

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

ARE YOU STILL HERE?  Do you have no problems with lying and stealing and hating?  Do you worship IDOLS?  Do you have no care or concern for your fellow man?  Are you out to get over on whomever you can?  Have you no consciousness of God? 

OR have you BEEN RAISED up a NEW CREATURE?  Do you LOVE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST?  Do you study the words of GOD because YOU CAN'T HELP IT?  Do you not steal and cheat because those FEELINGS have no part IN YOU?

So the question becomes ARE YOU the YOU YOU ONCE WERE still here OR HAVE YOU BEEN RAISED UP TO A HIGHER PLACE.  A place in your SOUL that finds THE WAYS OF GOD THE WAYS YOU STRIVE TO FOLLOW? 

I am so different than I was. I can't believe the old me ever even existed in the same body at one time. I shudder when I think of some of the things I did as the old me. 

I'm with you here.

 

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  
BECAUSE if you do, then KNOW that comes from God and THOUGH YOU may still be here in your flesh body, you are ALREADY WALKING in the ways of God and NOW, BEFORE YOU DIE, you want to HELP GOD by telling or showing as many souls as possible OR USING WHAT EVER GIFT GOD HAS GIVEN YOU to the fullest so that GODS DESIRE

Sure, of course.

 

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

that all come to repentance CAN be fulfilled.  WHY DO YOU THINK THE DEAD are raised up for the Lords Day?  So that they might come to repentance.  Why do you think GOD is going to have the SAVED here for the Lords Day?  So that all might come to repentance.  Why do you think we FOLLOW HIM?  to find THE REST.  

The saved need to repent? You lost me here.

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

where IS THE REST FOUND?  WHAT WILL THE PRIESTS, THE LIVING THAT RETURN WITH HIM BE DOING?  

helping THE DEAD find the REST.   PRAISE YE THE LORD.  Seek the DEEPER THINGS OF GOD and quit arguing about the milk.  It's wasting precious time.

 

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

20For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it

 

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I know going off topic again, I'll stop

Have you looked through this thread? lol It's off topic all the time. But I think we aren't too far off. The nature of the resurrection, pre-, post-, or mid-, is on topic here, even if obliquely.

1 Cor 15:35-58 is a main pretrib passage and deals with the nature of the resurrection body. That's what we are discussing.

And please, know that your insight here is valuable to me. I don't have the best understanding of what we are discussing, but I would like to.

 

 

 

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Are you saying what I think you are saying?  

Are you saying you don't believe any of these? 


"Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;" John 16:10 KJV


"A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father." John 16:16 KJV


"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father." John 16:25 KJV


"I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father." John 16:28 KJV

Shalom, DeighAnn.

There's no doubt in my mind that Yeeshuwa` the Messiah went to be with His Father, because He said He was going to His Father's house, the New Jerusalem. He's going there to "prepare a place for us." (John 14:1-3).

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:11 KJV

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." John 17:24 KJV

However, it is WRONG to think that we go to the Father, as well! That's backward! That's why I say that it's important to know that there's no "Heaven" (with a capital "H"), and we DON'T go there when we die!

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 KJV

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:33 KJV

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2 KJV

Yeeshuwa` DID go to His Father, but He did NOT go to "Heaven!" (Unless that's the nickname one is giving to the New Jerusalem!) And, while He is certainly "set down at the right hand of the throne of God," that does NOT mean that He is currently reigning, as so many given over to the amillennial point of view believe, those who believe that "Yeeshuwa` will NOT reign on earth, but will reign in Heaven forver!"

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

First of all, this is a PROPHECY - a FORETASTE of what will come!

Second, quoting Revelation 19 SKIPS a few steps that come before this event! They are not coming "FROM Heaven," as though "Heaven" was some place beyond the sky and beyond the stars! They are coming OUT of the SKY! For THAT is what the word "heaven" means! That is what the Greek word "ouranos" means!

Third, "armies in the sky" we call an "AIR FORCE!"

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Is He or is He not the author of confusion.  BECAUSE SOMEONE IS

when what is written isn't what is meant.  



WHEN IS IT WE ARE RAISED TO LIFE?  When we come to faith, we are passed from death unto life.  We are told we NEVER DIE.  

This is just plain WRONG! If that's what YOU believe, you've got a wake-up call coming! (In more ways than one!) One isn't put to death and then raised up to new life at one's justification! One is made a new creature (creation) by the Ruwach haQodesh living though that person! When God declares a person to be righteousness, that is, His own righteousness through His Son, then that person is JUSTIFIED BY GOD! (Many say this is "salvation," but that's really the wrong word.) THIS is how we are "born again!" We are ADOPTED INTO GOD'S FAMILY! We are given the PROMISE of a new life! We are given the PROMISE of a resurrection, in which we are resurrected as a new, glorious, immortal, incorruptible, and yet STILL PHYSICAL body!

Look at the words used in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 (KJV)

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. Οὕτως καὶ ἡ ἀνάστασις τῶν νεκρῶν = "Houtoos kai anastasis toon nekroon" = "So also resurrection of-the dead-ones"

It is sown in corruption; φθορᾷ = "fthora" = "the ability to decay"
it is raised in incorruption: ἀφθαρσίᾳ = "aftharsia" = "the inability to decay"
43 It is sown in dishonour; ἀτιμίᾳ = "atimia" = "the disgrace of a funeral"
it is raised in glory: δόξῃ = "doxee" = "brightness; fame"
it is sown in weakness; ἀσθενείᾳ = "astheneia" = "frailty; weakness"
it is raised in power: δυνάμει = "dunamei" = "power; strength"
44 It is sown a natural body; σῶμα ψυχικόν = "sooma psuchikon" = "an-air-breathing body"
it is raised a spiritual body. σῶμα πνευματικόν = "sooma pneumatikon" = "an-air-BLOWING body," "BLOWING" like the "WIND!"
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 
45 And so it is written,

The first man Adam was made a living soul; Ἐγένετο ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος Ἀδὰμ εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν = "Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan" = "Was-made the first man Adam into an-air-breathing-creature living"

{This is a Greek translation of the Hebrew in Genesis 2:7:

Genesis 2:7b (Westminster Leningrad Codex)

וַֽיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה = "vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayyaah" = "and-became the-red-[man]/the-Adam into-an-air-breathing-creature living"}

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. ὁ ἔσχατος Ἀδὰμ εἰς πνεῦμα ζωοποιοῦν = "ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun" = "the last Adam into a-spirit/WIND life-giving"
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, Ἀλλ’ οὐ πρῶτον τὸ πνευματικὸν = "All' ou prooton to pneumatikon" = "However not first the air-BLOWING"
but that which is natural; ἀλλὰ τὸ ψυχικόν = "alla to psuchikon" = "but the air-breathing"
and afterward that which is spiritual. ἔπειτα τὸ πνευματικόν = "epeita to pneumatikon" = "afterward the air-BLOWING"
47 The first man is of the earth, ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος ἐκ γῆς = "ho prootos anthroopos ek gees" = "the first man out/from of-earth"
earthy: χοϊκός = "choikos" = "made-of-dust"
the second man is the Lord from heaven. ὁ δεύτερος ἄνθρωπος ὁ Κύριος ἐξ οὐρανοῦ = "ho deuteros anthroopos ho Kurios ex ouranou" = the second man the Lord out/from of-[the]-sky"
48 As is the earthy, οἷος ὁ χοϊκός = "hoios ho choikos" = "like the made-of-dust-[one]"
such are they also that are earthy: τοιοῦτοι καὶ οἱ χοϊκοί = "toioutoi kai hoi choikoi" = so-like also the made-of-dust-[ones]"
and as is the heavenly, καὶ οἷος ὁ ἐπουράνιος = "kai hoios ho epouranios" = "and like the [one]-of-above-the-sky"
such are they also that are heavenly. τοιοῦτοι καὶ οἱ ἐπουράνιοι = "toioutoi kai hoi epouranioi" = "so-like also the [ones]-0f-above-the-sky"
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, καὶ καθὼς ἐφορέσαμεν τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ χοϊκοῦ = "kai kathoos eforesamen teen eikona tou choikou" = "and like we-have-worn the image/likeness of-the [one]-made-of-dust"
we shall also bear the image of-the heavenly. φορέσομεν καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ ἐπουρανίου = "foresomen kai teen eikona tou epouraniou" = "we-shall-wear also the image of-the [One]-of-above-the-sky"

THIS is real life! We go into the ground an-air-breathing-creature defeated, made of dust, weak, and decaying. We BURST OUT OF THE GROUND an-air-BLOWING-creature in brightness, made like the above-the-sky One, powerful, and never decaying again!

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

So if we were to pass from life
back to death
then back to life.  That would be down and outright confusion.   

But, that's NOT how it will be! We DON'T "pass from [eternal] life!" We pass from the weak flesh that had the PROMISE of eternal life to death, and THEN we are raised to new, ETERNAL life! We are to look forward to the "Blessed HOPE!" The "Happy CONFIDENCE" that God will fulfill His promise!

(Thank you for the rest of your post.)

[choir loft]

On 2/18/2023 at 5:54 PM, seeking the lost said:

I can only go by the scripture.  Revelation 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Everybody is caught up in the rapture fallacy - doctrinally if not literally.

I've heard at least 16 different versions of it.  If it's truly of God and in the Bible there ought to be one version that everyone accepts as valid.  One example of validity is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.  There's no argument about that point at all.

In point of fact, it was INVENTED by a Jesuit priest in the latter part of the 16th century so as to confuse the followers of the protestant reformation.  At bottom line its a doctrine of cowards - those who don't want to exercise their faith and who prefer an easy escape mechanism if its a fantasy.    

The context of scripture is how we determine truth.  Context firmly establishes that God wants His people to walk THROUGH the troubles of earth by relying upon faith in Him to see them THROUGH it.  

Rapture fanatics absolutely refuse to allow the fact of over a dozen variations of their favorite heresy into their minds.   They prefer the Star Trek beam-out version regardless of its ridiculousness.

Keep waiting.  The rest of us will be in heaven with the Lord and you'll still be sitting on your mountain top (or under your bedroom mattress) hiding from hard times.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[farouk]

On 2/18/2023 at 1:30 PM, DeighAnn said:

Yes, in which the victory over death has already been accomplished for those who have received the gift,  and so have been saved from death and destruction, so never die nor descend to the place of the dead!!! 

I don't think that there is an understanding of what DEATH as in Adam means in relation to the two bodies.

As in Adam means all natural bodies have a shelf life.  Our first body carries us though this 'alive on earth' time and then it dies.  


As in Christ means we all have a spiritual body too.  (the Lord of both the living and the dead)

For the SAVED we are raised up in the spiritual body as we have already had our baptism and so have already died and been raised up, and now just go home to heaven

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.


For the UNSAVED, they descend, in their spiritual body and now they have their 'baptism' but it is unto death and the corruption of the earth.  They remain in the corruption of hell until Christ returns.  They don't follow Him at all, they have to wait for the last day.  

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

How many people think that the rich man talking to Lazarus after they had both died are speaking to each other in this earthen flesh body?  We see one buried and one taken to heaven.  They have move on to the 'unseen' world.  The 'spiritual' realm, no less real and physical, just unseen to us presently.  

We have seen graves opened and there is no life in the carcass that once housed our spirit/souls.  And there never will be again.  

 

 

@DeighAnn Re. the victory which is ours, I am reminded of John 16.33:

"In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

H. Bonar wrote:

"The victory is ours!
For us in might came forth the mighty One;
    For us He fought the fight, the triumph won:
The victory is ours!"