Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[killiekrankie]

17 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Rev 3:10,11 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from (Escape) the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.  I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so no one will take your crown.  Rev 4:4 - Surrounding the throne were 24 other thrones, and seated on them were 24 elders ( In my opinion; 12 of the Jews and 12 of the Gentiles - which are of the Bride of Christ).  They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.  And this before the Seals are even opened.

Gen 7:7 - And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons wives entered the Ark to escape the waters of the flood. 

Gen 19:23.24 - By the time Lot reached Zoar (to escape S & G), the sun had risen over the Land.  Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the heavens.

All types of the Righteous being removed before destruction comes.  And you want to be left behind.

The tares are taken out first when Satan and his horde surround Jerusalem.  They are all consumed.  And go directly to the GWT Judgment, then to the Lake of Fire.  Then the rest of the Righteous who reside with Christ in Jerusalem receive their immortal Bodies.  All Post 1000 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Well said Montana Marv.  I would also tend towards pre-Trib rapture.  One of my favourite passages of scripture:

1 Thessalonians 4: 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This passage is an encouragement, going into the Great Tribulation, that the bible describes as a time of great distress without parallel since the foundation of the world would not be an encouragement and is not alluded to in this passage.  In Revelation it describes those who take the mark of the beast and worship the image as being damned, those who do not take it are martyred.  'Those who are alive and left' does not square with this scenario, being martyred or damned, only those left alive are those who have taken the mark.  God Bless   

[ChristB4us]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

None of these verses teach that any believer will miss THE resurrection.  In fact, 1 Cor 15:23 PROVES that ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes" back at the 2nd Advent.

There is no excommunication with believers.  "Those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes" and no erroneous teaching will change that.

1 Cor 15:23

btw, my question about when believers who miss the resurrection will finally receive their resurrection bodies, hasn't been answered.

Is there any Scripture that supports the claim that certain believers will miss the resurrection, and receive theirs later?  Please share.

If not, there is a huge hole in that theory.

Why is Jesus warning believers to be ready?  Luke 12:40-49

To avoid crapping their pants?  I think not.

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Nothing you posted has anything to do with my post. Not a very good rebuttal. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

It wouldn't, if you believe there will be an actual seal 'put on' your forehead.  

 

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by DeighAnn

[Montana Marv]

18 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

It wouldn't, if you believe there will be an actual seal 'put on' your forehead.  

 

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

Again nothing about the Church having a seal on the forehead. Indwelling yes, forehead no.  A bit of a stretch to say otherwise. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

[DeighAnn]

 

40 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Why is Jesus warning believers to be ready?  Luke 12:40-49

To avoid crapping their pants?  I think not.

Do you think that was written to ONE SINGLE generation which is not even the LAST but the 2nd to last generation?  Don't you think that all mankind should ALWAYS be ready for the coming of the Lord because WE all DIE the common death and we don't want to be found caught up in the ways of this world?  

OR do you believe it has NEVER applied to anyone else at any time?

How is it the pre tribs decided what is written FOR THEM and what ISN'T, since they LIVE by a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SET OF RULES than all the rest of mankind ever has, at least for the past 2000 years or so?

[DeighAnn]

10 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Again nothing about the Church having a seal on the forehead. Indwelling yes, forehead no.  A bit of a stretch to say otherwise. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

Since the church is of Israel they need to be sealed or they will FALL AWAY since there is no gathering until after the workings of Satan, IF you believe what is written as opposed to what MAN concludes.  

[Montana Marv]

45 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Since the church is of Israel they need to be sealed or they will FALL AWAY since there is no gathering until after the workings of Satan, IF you believe what is written as opposed to what MAN concludes.  

The Church is of Christ not Israel. Israel is still in disobedience, the church/Bride is without spot or wrinkle. Israel has been yanked out of the tree. The Church has been grafted in. I certainly don't believe in what man or woman speaks. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

[seeking the lost]

21 hours ago, The Light said:

Those that are sealed in Revelation 7 do not go through the wrath of God. If you understood Revelation you would understand that they are sealed earlier in the seals and are raptured to heaven before the great multitude is in heaven. The 144,000 that are sealed are the first fruits of the harvest at occurs at the 6th seal. Not a chance you understand this as you are missing the easy stuff.

The problem arises after you add to the writings of this book that you also must take away from what the revelation says clearly to make it fit a narrative.  Take a close look at these texts.

Rev7: 

God's People will Be Preserved

1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev.9: 1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

These texts clearly give the means of God's deliverance for His people.  Everyone who does not have the seal of God will be harmed.  Those with the seal of God are not raptured but they are protected from the wrath of God by this command, do not harm them.

There will be believers present that on the earth if this were not true there would not be any tribulation martyrs.  Martyrs are the result of satans rage.  They are not protected by the seal of God from this but they will be rewarded.

Our narratives are different because I see God protecting His people from Wrath and you seem to believe that they are taken up to be protected.  Did Jesus teach that the tares would be taken out first?  

Matt. 13: 

24Jesus put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and slipped away. 26When the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the weeds also appeared.

27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

Who are the ones taken out first

 

[seeking the lost]

21 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Upon Salvation we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, by his indwelling.  We do not need to have a seal put on our foreheads.  Can you give examples where any believers over the past 2000 years have received this seal on their foreheads.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I am just looking at the text of Rev. 7 and Rev. 9 and the command not to hurt those that have the seal of God.  Being protected by the command of God is more likely than a rapture.  That is true without a resurrection of the dead in Christ being raised first there will not be a rapture.  That resurrection happens at the end of the thousand years.

The warning of the curse is clear do not add or take away.  

Rev. 22:18I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

The problem arises after you add to the writings of this book that you also must take away from what the revelation says clearly to make it fit a narrative.  Take a close look at these texts.

Rev7: 

God's People will Be Preserved

1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev.9: 1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

I am very aware of the texts. As most people would, I jumped to the same conclusion as you for years until I understood what I was reading. Let me give you the short version, though I don't think you will grasp the short or long version. The short version is that in Revelation 7 those that are sealed are the 1st fruits of the harvest. The harvest is seen a few verses later in Revelation 7 as the great multitude. The 144,000 that are sealed do not in fact go through the wrath of God.

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

These texts clearly give the means of God's deliverance for His people. 

Actually the text clearly shows that there is a harvest with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. If you understood the text you would realize that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. When you are reading in Rev 14 about the 144,000 being redeemed FROM the earth you should realize that this takes place in the seals. The harvest is how believers are not appointed to wrath.

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

 

Everyone who does not have the seal of God will be harmed.  Those with the seal of God are not raptured but they are protected from the wrath of God by this command, do not harm them.

Exactly. And yet you jump to the conclusion that the 144,000 remain on the earth after the harvest of the 6th seal, when they are in fact first fruits of this harvest and will be redeemed from the earth before the harvest itself.

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

There will be believers present that on the earth if this were not true there would not be any tribulation martyrs. 

The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Believers are not appointed to wrath.

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

 

Martyrs are the result of satans rage.  They are not protected by the seal of God from this but they will be rewarded.

The wrath of God does not begin until the 7th seal is opened. The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth before the wrath of God. The events of Rev 13 and 14 take place in the seals.

1 hour ago, seeking the lost said:

Our narratives are different because I see God protecting His people from Wrath and you seem to believe that they are taken up to be protected.  Did Jesus teach that the tares would be taken out first?  

Matt. 13: 

24Jesus put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and slipped away. 26When the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the weeds also appeared.

27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

Who are the ones taken out first

 

The tares are taken out first..........WHEN?

He is the rapture which is the gathering from heaven and earth. Take not that the righteous are gathered first and the wicked are cast into the wrath of God. This is not when the tares are burned. So you should see you have a problem.

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So, the harvest in Rev 14, which occurs at the 6th seal, which is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 shows that the righteous are gathered first. So you probably need to figure out when people are cast into the lake of fire. Then you will know when the tares are gathered first.