Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[seeking the lost]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

OK.

4When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.


39Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

40Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

41Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42And I knew that thou hearest me always:

but because of the people which stand by I said it,

that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

43And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

44And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.


45Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.


Not sure how you see that as MY OWN THINKING...Just what I see written, is what I believe.  

He told them what was truly happening, they didn't get it, so He said it in a way  they could understand, and YET what He originally said turned out to be the truth.  And

Did Lazarus STINK?  No one mentioned it.  So, was HE DEAD that entire time?  We don't know.  But we do know that just like people today 'seem dead' they are revived.

BUT we have to ask ourselves 

what was the POINT?

AND does any of that change THEM SEEING THE GLORY OF GOD?  no.  

MANY OF THE JEWS BELIEVED ON HIM

Hopefully, even if we don't agree, it will clear up if it is my thinking or what is written as to what is being put forth

 

In the Jewish understanding, it was after the third day that the spirit left the body.  Jesus waited until the fourth day so that many might see the glory of God and believe.  If he was just disturbing a long nap there is no glory in that.  

Why are you trying to deny a miracle?   Are you trying to make a point of once to die and that is all and therefore Lazarus was not really dead?  Consider Hebrews 11:  35 Women received their dead raised to life again.  What happened to them?

[DeighAnn]

7 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

All run the race is correct.  But a particular position belief does not run the race inclusively. And how long this race is, is not known. The race has been over for at least 90 percent of all Believers.  They endured to the end, they had the Full Armor of God, they Overcame, they withstood.  No time frame is given, only the duration of the life of the Believer.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Absolutely, everyone runs to the end of their race.  No exceptions.  Till death or till the moment that all who remain are changed at the 2nd Advent, when the Kingdoms of this world are become His as the Lords Day begins... 

[DeighAnn]

1 minute ago, seeking the lost said:

In the Jewish understanding, it was after the third day that the spirit left the body.  Jesus waited until the fourth day so that many might see the glory of God and believe.  If he was just disturbing a long nap there is no glory in that.  

Why are you trying to deny a miracle?   Are you trying to make a point of once to die and that is all and therefore Lazarus was not really dead?  Consider Hebrews 11:  35 Women received their dead raised to life again.  What happened to them?

I am not trying to deny anything.  

 I will say I don't care what the Jewish understanding was, as they didn't even understand the Messiah was walking amongst them. So, as for their understanding as being something I would stand upon rather than what is written, that's a no go for me.    

I am not saying Lazarus wasn't really dead, I am saying he wasn't really dead for 4 days, maybe not even 3, and if pressed to guess I would say 2 at the max but wouldn't be surprised if he was only DEAD from the time Jesus said he was until the time he was told to come forth, but AGAIN, I don't know.  All of this is just guessing. 

All we can be sure of is

he had a sickness that was NOT unto death yet was buried, and Jesus told him to come out and he did, and it was to the glory of God as it was supposed to be. 

What am I missing?  

 

 

[The Light]

On 4/18/2023 at 2:03 AM, DeighAnn said:

This is the PROBLEM WITH NOT GOING TO THE SCHOOL MASTER and learning about how GOD SEPARATED ISRAEL LONG BEFORE Jesus was even born

and NOT KNOWING THAT THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN MADE ONE AGAIN (not that they didn't want to BUT GOD WOULDN'T ALLOW IT)

AND THEY WON'T BE MADE ONE AGAIN UNTIL THE END AND

SO YOU KEEP TRYING TO MAKE THEM ONE SO YOU CAN SEPARATE THE CHURCH FROM THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL

WHICH CAN'T BE DONE BECAUSE THAT IS WHO JESUS HIMSELF SAID HE WAS SENT TO BRING BACK into the fold.  

SO NO, I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHERE ANY MAN GETS THE NERVE TO SAY JESUS DIDN'T ACCOMPLISH WHAT HE WAS SENT TO ACCOMPLISH.  GOOD LUCK EXPLAINING THAT WILLINGLY ignorant fact.

 

 

You see the House of Israel as a finished product. You seem to think everything is done. 

It's like a cake and all you see is the finished cake. You miss the part where the flower, backing powder, salt and butter etc. are mixed together. You miss the preheating of the oven. All you see is the cake which is why you don't understand scripture. I mention the flour, you mention the cake. You see none the timing of the House of Israel. And that's just how it is. 

[The Light]

On 4/18/2023 at 2:03 AM, DeighAnn said:

ALL THE VIRGINS ARE TALKING in the middle of the NIGHT WHEN buying and selling gets the door shut on you, SO HOW could  1/2 OF THEM already BE IN HEAVEN? 

Shoot, the way PRE TRIB tells it,

Jesus is telling the story, meaning

HE HASN'T yet been found worthy because

HE hasn't died (hint hint) and become the Lamb of God

yet the CHURCH IS ALREADY IN HEAVEN, RIGHT? 

so why do they even NEED LAMPS? 

  



 

This is just things you have made up. Putting words in people mouth because you don't understand.

[seeking the lost]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

I am not trying to deny anything.  

 I will say I don't care what the Jewish understanding was, as they didn't even understand the Messiah was walking amongst them. So, as for their understanding as being something I would stand upon rather than what is written, that's a no go for me.    

I am not saying Lazarus wasn't really dead, I am saying he wasn't really dead for 4 days, maybe not even 3, and if pressed to guess I would say 2 at the max but wouldn't be surprised if he was only DEAD from the time Jesus said he was until the time he was told to come forth, but AGAIN, I don't know.  All of this is just guessing. 

All we can be sure of is

he had a sickness that was NOT unto death yet was buried, and Jesus told him to come out and he did, and it was to the glory of God as it was supposed to be. 

What am I missing?  

 

 

So much weeping over a nap.  You may be as confused as the disciples.  Jesus said to them, "Lazarus is asleep and I go to wake him up."  They say, "Lord if he sleep, he shall do well."  Jesus then clarifies the situation for them and maybe for you.  Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him

Did you miss the part about Lazarus is dead?

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

You see the House of Israel as a finished product. You seem to think everything is done. 

It's like a cake and all you see is the finished cake. You miss the part where the flower, backing powder, salt and butter etc. are mixed together. You miss the preheating of the oven. All you see is the cake which is why you don't understand scripture. I mention the flour, you mention the cake. You see none the timing of the House of Israel. And that's just how it is. 

How wrong you are as to WHAT I SEE. 
"Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel." John 1:49 KJV

I see Israel as GODS PEOPLE. I don't see a STOP of a people but a continuing in another, better way.   

And the CHURCH is comprised of the House of Israel (scattered sheep) and the Gentiles are grafted in AMONGST them, not that we can tell one from the other as the House of Israel was sifted into the heathen before the temple was ever rebuilt before Jesus was born. 

Not to mention, there is NO OTHER WAY in which GODS promises could be fulfilled but by the House of Israel.  When coming out of captivity they were scattered to the whole world and became the many nations we see in the world today.  And many of the nations can even trace their roots to specific tribes.  

"But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done." Luke 24:21 KJV

"Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel." Matthew 15:31 KJV
  

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people," Luke 1:68 KJV 

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" Romans 11:26 KJV

We all know "the DELIVERER" that came out of Sion 

"And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." Galatians 6:16 KJV

"But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication." Revelation 2:14 KJV

"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." Revelation 7:4 KJV

"And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:" Revelation 21:12 KJV

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

This is just things you have made up. Putting words in people mouth because you don't understand.

I didn't write the bible so how could you say that?  
 

They WOKE UP AT MIDNIGHT.  They needed oil in their lamps.  IT CERTAINLY WAS DURING THE DAY.  They were speaking to each other.  

WHAT did I make up?  Who's mouth did I put words in?

Are you done trying to show what can't be shown and so are now going after me? 

I do hope so. 

 

[The Light]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

I didn't write the bible so how could you say that?  
 

They WOKE UP AT MIDNIGHT.  They needed oil in their lamps.  IT CERTAINLY WAS DURING THE DAY.  They were speaking to each other.  

WHAT did I make up?  Who's mouth did I put words in?

Are you done trying to show what can't be shown and so are now going after me? 

I do hope so. 

 

You made up this nonsense as you do not understand Revelation 5. 

Shoot, the way PRE TRIB tells it,

Jesus is telling the story, meaning

HE HASN'T yet been found worthy because

HE hasn't died (hint hint) and become the Lamb of God

yet the CHURCH IS ALREADY IN HEAVEN, RIGHT? 

[Retrobyter]

32 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Thank you,  kinda but so hard to understand and made harder because we see things so differently. 

I agree with a little bit of it, but not the part as it relates to Eph 4...here's why.

I would agree with these speaking to the Exodus and the giving of the Law (which would set men free from death)

7O God, when thou wentest forth before thy people, when thou didst march through the wilderness; Selah:

8The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.

9Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful rain, whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.

10Thy congregation hath dwelt therein: thou, O God, hast prepared of thy goodness for the poor.

11The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.

GOING INTO THE PROMISE LAND

12Kings of armies did flee apace: and she that tarried at home divided the spoil.

13Though ye have lien among the pots, yet shall ye be as the wings of a dove covered with silver, and her feathers with yellow gold.

14When the Almighty scattered kings in it, it was white as snow in Salmon.

But no references to the Exodus past this point.
 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Actually, there's no INTEREST in seeing the references to the Exodus past this point. Why not? Because it doesn't back up the belief that Yeeshuwa` took "captivity captive" to "Heaven!"

32 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

This goes on to speak of where GOD WILL BE DWELLING in the future
15The hill of God is as the hill of Bashan; an high hill as the hill of Bashan.

This is a reference to the "hill of God," "Har 'Elohiym," NAMELY "Har Baashaan." The kaf prefix, k-, is not used; so, it is not "LIKE" or "AS" at all. It IS the same. Har Baashaan today is called the Golan Heights in Syria at the northern Israeli border!

Here is Psalm 68:15:

הַר־אֱ֭לֹהִים הַר־בָּשָׁ֑ן הַ֥ר גַּ֝בְנֻנִּ֗ים הַר־בָּשָֽׁן

Transliterated, this is ...

15 Har-'Elohiym har-Baashaan; har gabnuniym har-Baashaan.

It translates to ...  

15 A Mountain of God [is] a-mountain-of-Baashaan; a-mountain of-peaks [is] a-mountain of-Baashaan.

32 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

16Why leap ye, ye high hills? this is the hill which God desireth to dwell in; yea, the LORD will dwell in it for ever.

The Hebrew of this verse is ...

לָ֤מָּה ׀ תְּֽרַצְּדוּן֮ הָרִ֪ים גַּבְנֻ֫נִּ֥ים הָהָ֗ר חָמַ֣ד אֱלֹהִ֣ים לְשִׁבְתֹּ֑ו אַף־יְ֝הוָ֗ה יִשְׁכֹּ֥ן לָנֶֽצַח׃

It transliterates to ...

16 Laammaah | tratsdown haariym gaVnuniym haahaar chaamad 'Elohiym lshiVtow 'af-YHVH yishkon laanetsach:

Whic translates word-for-word to ...

16 Why | do-you-look-jealously mountains of-peaks the-mountain [which]-desires God to-dwell-in-it Yes-YHWH will-dwell [in-it] to-perpetuity:

32 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Also, Angels don't dwell on earth (at the moment, though they will soon) just as He will in the future

Actually, one should remember that there is NOWHERE where God is not! "Angels" are "MESSENGERS!" And, one should remember that the CHIEF messengers of God were the PROPHETS!

32 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

17The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

Again, here's the Hebrew:

רֶ֤כֶב אֱלֹהִ֗ים רִבֹּתַ֣יִם אַלְפֵ֣י שִׁנְאָ֑ן אֲדֹנָ֥י בָ֝֗ם סִינַ֥י בַּקֹּֽדֶשׁ׃

This transliterates to ...

17 RaakheV 'Elohiym ribtayim 'alfeey shin'aan 'Adonaay baam Ciynay baqqodesh:

This translates word-for-word as ...

17 A-chariot of-God [are] ten-thousand (twice) thousands of-repetition my-Founder [is] in-them Sinai in-the-holy-[place]:

32 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

He was among those on earth when giving the law, but He has ascended to the Heavens, I don't see anything here as being seen as the 'top of the mountain', and with the Law having been given...

Sorry, but the word for "Heavens" is not there. 

32 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 18Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

19Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

20He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.

Again, here is the Hebrew of these three verses:

עָ֘לִ֤יתָ לַמָּרֹ֨ום ׀ שָׁ֘בִ֤יתָ שֶּׁ֗בִי לָקַ֣חְתָּ מַ֭תָּנֹות בָּאָדָ֑ם וְאַ֥ף סֹ֝ורְרִ֗ים לִשְׁכֹּ֤ן ׀ יָ֬הּ אֱלֹהִֽים׃
בָּ֤ר֣וּךְ אֲדֹנָי֮ יֹ֤ום ׀ יֹ֥ום יַֽעֲמָס־לָ֗נוּ הָ֘אֵ֤ל יְֽשׁוּעָתֵ֬נוּ סֶֽלָה׃
הָ֤אֵ֣ל ׀ לָנוּ֮ אֵ֤ל לְֽמֹושָׁ֫עֹ֥ות וְלֵיהוִ֥ה אֲדֹנָ֑י לַ֝מָּ֗וֶת תֹּוצָאֹֽות׃

These verses transliterate to ...

18 `Aaliytaa lamaarowm | shaaViytaa sheViy laaqachtaa mattaanowt baa'aadaam v'af cowrriym lishkon | YaaH 'Elohiym:
19 baaruwkh 'Adonaay yowm | yowm ya`amaac-laanuw haa'Eel Yshuw`aateenuw celaah:
20 Haa'Eel | laanuw 'Eel lmowshaa`owt vlee-YHWH 'Adonaay lammaawet towtsaa'owt:

Translated word-for-word, these become ...

18 You-(singular)-have-ascended to-a-height | you-have-taken-captive captives; you-have-taken gifts in-a-red-[man] and-even rebellious-ones to-dwell-[there] | YAH God:
19 Bless/Welcome [the]-Lord every-day He-loads-[benefits]-to-us the-God of-our-Rescue! (Exalt Him!)
20 The-God-[is] | to-us a-God to-our-Rescues and-to-YHWH my-Lord from-death belong-escapes!

 

32 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

But thank you for sharing your thoughts on the matter.  

You're always welcome, but I hope you can get something out of this. Let the Word speak TO YOU. Don't try to find what you believe in the Word.