Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

@DeighAnn

Shalom, ChristB4us.

I'm a little confused. You quoted my post, but you addressed your post to DeighAnn. Did you mean to address me? If not, and you truly did mean to address DeighAnn, then you quoted the wrong post. Because you quoted me, I will answer this post.

9 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Yet there is a warning to mislead a child by any false teachings in a church for why saved believers may find themselves left behind.

Matthew 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. 10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Of course, little ones can also apply to babes in Christ, but it does apply to children as well.

Side note:  Matthew 18:9-10 is an example of how English words from the Greek does not always reflect the actual meaning of the Greek as hell is translated from Gehenna which is a refuse dump outside of Jerusalem and also known as the valley of slaughter.

Jeremiah 7:32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.

The warning to saved believers from Jesus is about being left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event as those abiding in Him will be received to that City of God in Heaven for when at the end of the great tribulation, that City of God will come down with her inhabitants.

Those saints left behind will be resurrected as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, but still in His House to serve the King of kings on earth.  2 Timothy 2:19-21 

They can repent, ask for forgiveness and help not to do that again, and if there be opportunities to correct those they have led astray, thank God for it and ask for His help to share the truth so that God may peradventure recover them from error, but otherwise, let it rest in Jesus Christ.

But one should consider the consequence for not sharing the Good News to those that ask.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

I. First, wow. Do you believe in eternal security at all? A born-again believer will NOT be "left behind," if there's such a thing as a pre-trib snatch. The problem is two-fold, though.

A. First, it's ALREADY TOO LATE for there to be a "pre-trib" ANYTHING! We're already IN the Tribulation! And, we've been in the Tribulation since the FIRST CENTURY A.D! NOTHING now can be "pre-trib!"

B. Second, there is absolutely NOTHING that ties the "tribulation" to the 70th Week of Daniel 9, and that's the ONLY way that one could conclude "7 years of tribulation!"

What were the six purposes for the 70 Weeks of Daniel 9?

Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy. 

NONE of these purposes suggest a tribulation period!

The tribulation CAN be found in verse 27, but it is NOT part of the 70 Weeks!

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Again, nothing is as it is simply written, making GOD THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION and only the wise of this world able to come to understanding and the leading of the Holy Spirit nothing but a lie. 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

No, God is not the author of confusion. We simply bring the confusion WITH US to the table! We don't understand the English into which the Scriptures were translated; so, we continue to mess them up!

The English language has CHANGED dramatically since 1611 A.D! "Hope," for instance, used to mean a "confident assurance" as in "our blessed hope"; now, it means "I don't know if it will happen, but I sure HOPE so!" It's now a word of nervous worry and doubt!

The word "heaven" used to mean the "sky!" We still use it that way in the plural: "He soared into the heavens."  Now, in the singular, it's almost EXCLUSIVELY used to mean "God's abode," even though the REAL God doesn't need an "abode," and He is certainly not restricted to one! He is omnipresent! There is nowhere one can go where God is not!

And, regarding the "leading of the Holy Spirit," I DO believe that He leads! In fact, I believe that He's led me into the truth I now know. We are also told to ...

"... TEST the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1 NIV).

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 Why don't you believe that GOD is in control of what HIS words convey, and the only time they were read correctly was in the first century I don't know.  I almost wonder how you explain how the book of Daniel has been closed but will be opened up, WITH THE EXACT SAME WORDS that have always been there.  

Who says I don't?! God has not only given us the Word through His divine inspiration given to His prophets and writers, but He has perfectly preserved His Word, even through the translation processes!

HOWEVER, let's not be naïve! PEOPLE CHANGE! And with the changes in people, there are also changes in the languages they speak! That's why most languages that people still use are called "LIVING languages!" They change with the changes in people and their societies!

Ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek were considered "dead languages" since they were not in public use (until Hebrew was revived since the late 18th Century). As such, their meanings were LOCKED IN and did not change for almost two millennia! Jews still make a distinction between Modern Hebrew and Liturgical Hebrew. Modern Hebrew has borrowed many words from other languages, particularly English, for the more modern concepts we need to convey in common speech; so, there is a difference.

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I am going to stick with the LEADING of the Holy Spirit to all truth and not with teachings from what is believed to be a corrupted word.

Good! You should! But, listen to Him well! Let HIM speak to YOU! Don't tell HIM what YOU believe!

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

let us agree to disagree, shall we?  

Sure, whatever.

[ChristB4us]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, ChristB4us.

I'm a little confused. You quoted my post, but you addressed your post to DeighAnn. Did you mean to address me? If not, and you truly did mean to address DeighAnn, then you quoted the wrong post. Because you quoted me, I will answer this post.

I. First, wow. Do you believe in eternal security at all? A born-again believer will NOT be "left behind," if there's such a thing as a pre-trib snatch. The problem is two-fold, though.

A. First, it's ALREADY TOO LATE for there to be a "pre-trib" ANYTHING! We're already IN the Tribulation! And, we've been in the Tribulation since the FIRST CENTURY A.D! NOTHING now can be "pre-trib!"

B. Second, there is absolutely NOTHING that ties the "tribulation" to the 70th Week of Daniel 9, and that's the ONLY way that one could conclude "7 years of tribulation!"

What were the six purposes for the 70 Weeks of Daniel 9?

Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy. 

NONE of these purposes suggest a tribulation period!

The tribulation CAN be found in verse 27, but it is NOT part of the 70 Weeks!

Introductory response; sorry for the confusion but I was joining in on both of your conversation you were having with @DeighAnn

I believed there was some information that both of you are overlooking.

The pre great tribulation rapture event is when God will judge His House first 1 Peter 4:17-19 KJV and in that day, He will judge every believer by what they have built on that foundation per 1 Corinthians 3:10-18 KJV and if any unrepentant works of iniquity is still on that foundation that defiles that temple of God, then God will destroy with physical death see vs 16-17.  That very same warning is giving to the church at Thyatira in Revelation 2:18-25 KJV in being cast into the bed of the great tribulation to be judged with death in according to their works unless they repent of their deeds before the Bridegroom comes.

Those left behind are still in His House but condemned as in damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not looking to Him for discernment & help in departing from iniquity in getting ready to meet the Bridegroom as the abiding bride of Christ.

2 Timothy 2:19-21 KJV   Note verse 20 is proof of no loss of salvation but the consequence for not departing from iniquity should be made clear.

The vessels unto dishonor are the vessels of wood & earth which are still in His House as they will be left behind to die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 KJV awaiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation Revelation 6:9-11 KJV & Revelation 7:9-17 KJV

So that foundation cannot be removed for why those left behind are still saved, but Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else as He did that church at Thyatira.

Some saved believers will err in not wanting to leave when the Bridegroom comes because they loved their lives on earth not to leave;  Luke 14:15-24 which is why Jesus referred to Lot's wife vs 32 for believers to be ready to leave everything behind in vs 31-33 of Luke 17:26-37 KJV

That is why Jesus is warning believers not to be overcharged for the cares of this life that the day would take us unaware as we are to pray for that escape from what is coming on the earth.  Luke 21:33-36 KJV

So not only are we to pray for help to be willing to go in leaving everything behind, but we are to pray for help for abiding in Him in being ready to go as vessels unto honor in Hos House or else be cut off with the unbelievers for when that fire comes on that third of the earth that will set up the bed for the coming great tribulation.

Luke 12:40-49 & Revelation 8:7 KJV

 

 

[farouk]

On 4/16/2023 at 6:42 PM, killiekrankie said:

Well said Montana Marv.  I would also tend towards pre-Trib rapture.  One of my favourite passages of scripture:

1 Thessalonians 4: 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This passage is an encouragement, going into the Great Tribulation, that the bible describes as a time of great distress without parallel since the foundation of the world would not be an encouragement and is not alluded to in this passage.  In Revelation it describes those who take the mark of the beast and worship the image as being damned, those who do not take it are martyred.  'Those who are alive and left' does not square with this scenario, being martyred or damned, only those left alive are those who have taken the mark.  God Bless   

@killiekrankie Fits indeed with 1 Corinthians 11.26, where the church is clearly in view as regards the Lord's coming.

[choir loft]

THE BIG problem with Evangelical dogma of the End Times is that it's scriptural interpretations are OUT OF SEQUENCE.   

In the last decade of the 16th century Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera composed what he called FUTURISM.  Initially a piece written to confuse the protestant reformation it contained all the events depicted in modern 'interpretations' of the end of human authority on this planet.  In other words, all the doctrine that's held so close to the vest of protestants today IS CATHOLIC DOGMA.  

In the mid 19th century John Nelson Darby dusted off Ribera's tripe and formulated his own version called DISPENSATIONALISM.  Darby was a consort of witches and certainly not an ordained priest as was Ribera.  Nobody cared either then or now.  It's an adult myth held as truth.  In some instances the interpretations are true - albeit out of the sequence presented by both Ribera and Darby.

The falsifications presented by Darby are popular to this day and NOBODY will listen to reason when alternate explanations are presented.  One such alternate issue is the Tribulation.   It's already happened.   Problem is - there was no rapture that's normally associated with the Tribulation.  Let's take a closer look at it.

The Hebrew prophet Jeremiah declared there would be a future time of trouble for the Jewish people.  He called it "the time of Jacob's trouble" (30:7).

The Hebrew prophet Daniel suggested the time of Jacob's trouble would last 7 years.  While rapture fans disagree as to when their departure date would be scheduled, most agree the troubled period would indeed last seven years.

Jesus said it would only happen once. (Matt 24:21 & Mark 13:19)

So what happened to these predictions?   In 1938 on what is known as Kristallnacht (night of broken crystal/glass) the Tribulation began.  It did not end until the cessation of hostilities in Europe in late spring of 1945 - a period of 7 years.  When the smoke cleared SIX MILLION JEWS had died and countless millions more had lost their homes, their families and their hope for the future.

Today as we all know, most antisemitic Christian types, who claim they do not harbor ill will against Jews, ALL HOPE FOR ANOTHER HOLOCAUST.  They all hope for more innocent Jews to die at the hands of fanatics who enforce the gospel with threats of death.

Not only is this a perfect example of prophecy interpreted out of sequence, it's an example of Christian hypocrisy hubris and self-delusion.  Christians want MORE JEWS TO DIE and deny the words of Christ who said IT WOULD ONLY HAPPEN ONCE.   Other self- important church types easily sweep aside the gruesome deaths of six million Jews and say the holocaust didn't happen and that a future time of worse events would take place.  To them I say, "I AM a Jew. Do you want to start by killing me too?https://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/Smileys/classic/confused.gif?"

It is exactly this type of blind hypocrisy and self-delusion that is now the hallmark of Evangelical Christians.  They have absolutely NO regard or respect for others who aren't members of their church (because anybody who isn't is going to hell). They give no concession to the FACT that they are misinterpreting prophecy in an out-of-sequence manner to suit their own fantasies.   Finally, they betray their own god - Jesus - when they call Him a liar.  He said it would only happen ONCE.   

Which part of ONCE isn't understood here?

The tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble, has already happened.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft... 

[truth7t7]

9 hours ago, choir loft said:

The tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble, has already happened.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft... 

"No" the great tribulation hasn't already taken place, as many suggest this took place in Jerusalems destruction by Roman armies in 70AD (Preterism)

The father of the (Preterist) teaching would be Roman Catholic Jesuit (Luis De Alcasar 1554-1613)

Daniel's AOD, The Great Tribulation, And The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ Are "Future" Events Unfulfilled as clearly seen in Matthew 24:15-30

Edited June 1, 2023 by truth7t7

[JasperWalls11]

14 hours ago, choir loft said:

  One such alternate issue is the Tribulation.   It's already happened.   Problem is - there was no rapture that's normally associated with the Tribulation.  Let's take a closer look at it.

When you read through the book of Revelation, there is no way you can say that the Tribulation is a past event that already happened.  Yes, the Holocaust was an awful thing, but the Tribulation period is a period of God's judgement on the whole world, not just the Jewish people.  It says that at one point, it will get so bad, that people will be trying to kill themselves, but God won't let them die.   It will drive people to madness.  We have never been there, yet.  

Things have to get worse before they get better.   I am thankful that I have prepared for the Rapture.  We who know Jesus will be caught up before the world is subjected to God's wrath.  Even those who don't believe in the Rapture will be pleasantly surprised when they are caught up! 

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

"No" the great tribulation hasn't already taken place, as many suggest this took place in Jerusalems destruction by Roman armies in 70AD (Preterism)

The father of the (Preterist) teaching would be Roman Catholic Jesuit (Luis De Alcasar 1554-1613)

Daniel's AOD, The Great Tribulation, And The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ Are "Future" Events Unfulfilled as clearly seen in Matthew 24:15-30

Shalom, truth7t7.

Breaking news! We're already IN the Great ("HUGE") Tribulation. There isn't a "pretribulational rapture" because we can't go back in time! The Tribulation began in the First Century A.D. and it will continue until the sun, moon, and stars sign is fulfilled.

Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") said,

Matthew 24:5-31 (KJV)

5 "For many shall come in my name, saying, 'I am Christ (Greek: ‘Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ Χριστός,’ "Egoo eimi ho Christos " = "I am the Messiah")'; and shall deceive many. 6 And YE shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that YE be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then shall they deliver YOU up to be afflicted (Greek: τότε παραδώσουσιν ὑμᾶς εἰς θλῖψιν  "tote paradoosousin HUMAS eis thlipsin" = "then they-shall-deliver YOU into tribulation"), and shall kill YOU: and YE shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 "When YE therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray YE that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto YOU, 'Lo, here is Christ!' (Greek: ‘Ἰδοὺ ὧδε ὁ Χριστός,’ 'Idou! hoode ho Christos!' = 'Look! Here! the Messiah!'), or 'there!' (Greek: ‘Ὧδε,’ 'Hoode!' = 'There [He-is]!'); (YOU) believe it not (Greek: μὴ πιστεύσητε 'mee pisteuseete' = 'not (YOU)-believe-[it]')! 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told YOU before (Greek: ἰδού, προείρηκα ὑμῖν "Idou proeireeka HUMIN" = "Look, I-have-told-beforehand to-YOU!").

26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto YOU, 'Behold, he is in the desert!'; (YOU) go not forth! (Greek: ‘Ἰδοὺ ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ ἐστίν,’ μὴ ἐξέλθητε "'Idou en tee ereemoo estin,' mee exeltheete!" = "'Look! In the desert He-is,' not (YOU)-do-go-out-[there]!): 'behold, he is in the secret chambers!'; (YOU) believe it not! (Greek: Ἰδοὺ ἐν τοῖς ταμείοις,’ μὴ πιστεύσητε "'Idou, en tois tameiois!' mee pisteuseete!" = "Look, in the closets!' not (YOU) believe-[it]!") 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase (YOU) is, there will the eagles (VULTURES) be gathered together.

29 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days (Greek: Εὐθέως δὲ μετὰ τὴν θλῖψιν τῶν ἡμερῶν ἐκείνων 'Eutheoos de META teen thlipsin toon heemeroon ekeinoon' = 'Immediately then AFTER the tribulation the days of-those') shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth (all the families of the LAND) mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

To whom was He talking? Not to everyone, but He was talking TO HIS DISCIPLES who were with Him in the garden! With whom did this "tribulation" begin? Not with everyone, but with those in the First Century between 66 and 70 A.D! Wikipedia records,

The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem, so that when holy men had altogether deserted the royal capital of the Jews and the whole land of Judaea…" 

— Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3

This heresy of the Nazoraeans exists in Beroea in the neighbourhood of Coele Syria and the Decapolis in the region of Pella and in Basanitis in the so-called Kokaba (Chochabe in Hebrew). From there it took its beginning after the exodus from Jerusalem when all the disciples went to live in Pella because Christ had told them to leave Jerusalem and to go away since it would undergo a siege. Because of this advice they lived in Perea after having moved to that place, as I said."

— Epiphanius, Panarion 29,7,7-8

For after all those who believed in Christ had generally come to live in Perea, in a city called Pella of the Decapolis of which it is written in the Gospel that it is situated in the neighbourhood of the region of Batanaea and Basanitis, Ebion's preaching originated here after they had moved to this place and had lived there." 

— Epiphanius, Panarion 30, 2, 7

So Aquila, while he was in Jerusalem, also saw the disciples of the disciples of the apostles flourishing in the faith and working great signs, healings, and other miracles. For they were such as had come back from the city of Pella to Jerusalem and were living there and teaching. For when the city was about to be taken and destroyed by the Romans, it was revealed in advance to all the disciples by an angel of God that they should remove from the city, as it was going to be completely destroyed. They sojourned as emigrants in Pella, the city above mentioned in Transjordania. And this city is said to be of the Decapolis." 

— Epiphanius, On Weights and Measures 15

For more, see Flight to Pella. So, was it just 7 years in the past? NO! Somehow, we believers have "the seven years of the Seventieth Week of Daniel 9" linked in our minds with "the tribulation!" THEY ARE NOT SYNONYMOUS!!! The REAL "tribulation" has lasted for almost 2,000 years! They reflect the GAP that Yeeshuwa` Himself put in the 70-Week chronology because, when He offered the children of Yhudah (the Jews) God's Kingdom, they REJECTED the Messiah - the One Anointed to be God's King - as their King! So, He, likewise, left them DESOLATE until they can say, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." This Hebrew sentence means "Welcome, He-who-comes on-authority of-YHWH."

 

They haven't said it, yet! BUT, God's prophecies foretell that they SHALL submit to Him when He returns, and He will reign from David's throne in Jerusalem.

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, JasperWalls11 said:

When you read through the book of Revelation, there is no way you can say that the Tribulation is a past event that already happened.  Yes, the Holocaust was an awful thing, but the Tribulation period is a period of God's judgement on the whole world, not just the Jewish people.  It says that at one point, it will get so bad, that people will be trying to kill themselves, but God won't let them die.   It will drive people to madness.  We have never been there, yet.  

Things have to get worse before they get better.   I am thankful that I have prepared for the Rapture.  We who know Jesus will be caught up before the world is subjected to God's wrath.  Even those who don't believe in the Rapture will be pleasantly surprised when they are caught up! 

Shalom, JasperWalls11.

Actually, the Tribulation ends before the sun, moon, and stars sign of Revelation 6:

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks,

'Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?'

Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") said,

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I suspect that it actually occurs just before the Fifth Seal, because a "soul" is a "BREATHING creature!"

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV)

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Many think this is a "scene from Heaven," but if they are already "souls" - "air-breathers" - then this is talking about the altar in the Temple that has been rebuilt before the Messiah returns:

Yeeshuwa` said,

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 BEHOLD, YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT UNTO YOU DESOLATE. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say,

"'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD.'"

And, He quoted Psalm 118:26!

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

The Hebrew of verse 26a is בָּר֣וּךְ הַ֭בָּא בְּשֵׁ֣ם יְהוָ֑ה transliterated as "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH."

The first two Hebrew words are used in the plural at all the airports and seaports in Israel today:

The words are "Baruwkhiym haba'iym" and literally translates to "Blessed [are] the-comers!"; they are used to mean, "Welcome, visitors!"

So, too, when the Messiah returns, the Jews will be ready for Him, and will say, "Welcome, He who comes on-authority of-YHWH!" For, that is what "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" means.

The rest of Psalm 118:26 says that they will do so מִבֵּ֥ית יְהוָֽה or "min-beeyt YHWH." This translates to "from-[the]-house of-YHWH," implying that there must first BE a "house of the LORD" - a "Temple." The Jews today are PERCHED ON THE BRINK of building another Temple! All the materials - the furniture, the priests' garments, the red heifer, the utensils, and the building materials - are ready to go! They only await orders/permission to do so. The orders await the decision of WHERE to build it. Right now, the Dome of the Rock sits where the Temple used to be. Will they remove it? Will they build next to it? These things aren't decided, yet, but this is how close the time is!

They also need to be READY in heart to receive their Messiah - actually, GOD'S Messiah to be their King on YHWH'S behalf! THIS is the task that we who believe, both Jew and Gentile, are commanded to do!

Romans 11:25-32 (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Isaiah 59:20-21; 27:9 [LXX]; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: BUT as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't change His mind about His gifts and calling!) 30 For as ye (Gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief (the unbelief of the Jews): 31 Even so have these (the Jews) also now not believed, that THROUGH YOUR MERCY THEY ALSO MAY OBTAIN MERCY. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL.

They are PART of the "election," the "chosen ones!"

What was Yeeshuwa`s parting words?

Acts 1:6-8 (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,

"Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

7 And he said unto them,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

We need to reverse the order: We're IN "the uttermost part of the earth"; we need to get BACK to "Samaria," "Judaea," and "Jerusalem!"

 

[JasperWalls11]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, JasperWalls11.

Actually, the Tribulation ends before the sun, moon, and stars sign of Revelation 6:

The seals are a panorama of the entire Tribulation from beginning to end.  The book of Revelation after chapter six is a more detailed look at the events that occur in the seals.  It's kind of like how Gen. 1:1 tells us that God created the Heavens and earth and then Gen. 1:2-2:3 explain or expand on Gen. 1:1.