Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[OldCoot]

And throw in those who die during the Millennial Reign of Messiah... both righteous and unrighteous.  So  many seem to overlook them.

Edited May 22, 2019 by OldCoot
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[Uriah]

On 5/22/2019 at 7:34 AM, Diaste said:

Even though scripture says:

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) "

And logically only the dead in Christ are raised at the return of the Lord, meaning the dead not in Christ are not raised at that time. That leaves the rest of the dead to be raised at the second resurrection and appear here:

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

I agree that any of the dead not in Christ from the return of the Lord to the end of the millennium will appear before the great white throne, we still have to account for all the dead not in Christ, who were not raised when Jesus returned. These two groups are separated by 1000 years as we see here. The dead in Christ are reigning as well as those who came from GT dead in resisting the beast and the mark, and these are separated by 1000 years. Notice the two groups in the second paragraph of scripture above. This is more detail about the same judgement from Matt 25.

Rev 20 pretty much proves that just because all in the graves will hear His voice and come forth does not mean all will hear that voice at the same time, and scripture does not say, "all in the graves will hear His voice and come forth all at the same time." as it's obvious some of the dead are not raised till after 1000 years. How is it that everyone appears at the Judgement of Matt 25 when a large group is already alive and reigning with Jesus? And if all in the grave hear His voice all at the same time and come forth how would we account for the living raised from the dead at the return of our Lord, when only those in Christ are raised from the dead?

It looks like the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain never face the power of death at the GWT judgement. They are already deemed righteous or they would not be raised from the dead and hence rule with Jesus for one thousand years before the GWT. During the GWT the dead are judged and only those who's names were not found written in the book of life are cast into eternal torment. The language of  Rev 20:11-15 more than suggests that some names are found written in the book of life and some are not.

The resurrection of the saints occurs when Jesus returns, the resurrection of the dead occurs after the millennium. No one misses the millennium that is supposed to be there and not everyone appears at the GWT with the power of death hanging over them, if those of the 1st resurrection appear before the GWT judgement at all.

(Couple typos, I think I know what you are trying to say) 

 

 

 

Hi Diaste

                I see your point and that is why I am asking who are these people standing side by side with those about to "enter the joy of thy Lord" and "inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"? To be sent into everlasting fire at the same time as the others are inheriting eternal life needs some explanation.

[Diaste]

On 5/23/2019 at 8:57 PM, Uriah said:

Hi Diaste

                I see your point and that is why I am asking who are these people standing side by side with those about to "enter the joy of thy Lord" and "inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"? To be sent into everlasting fire at the same time as the others are inheriting eternal life needs some explanation.

I am assuming you mean Matt 25 and of course I don't have a perfect understanding, it's just what seems to make sense. From what I read that's just the way our Lord is going to do it. Why I don't know. I may not even like it but that's just the way it is. 

But they are not standing side by side; the sheep are on the right and the goats on the left. At a minimum they are separated by the river which flows out from under the throne; unless the GWT is not the same as the throne of Matt 25 then I suppose they would appear as a mixed crowd. But since I'm convinced the Matt 25 and Rev 20 judgement are the same, the two groups are standing apart, one on the right and one on the left.

In any case it's going to occur even if I have the details wrong and my understanding is not where it should be (not unlikely).

[Uriah]

52 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I am assuming you mean Matt 25 and of course I don't have a perfect understanding, it's just what seems to make sense. From what I read that's just the way our Lord is going to do it. Why I don't know. I may not even like it but that's just the way it is. 

But they are not standing side by side; the sheep are on the right and the goats on the left. At a minimum they are separated by the river which flows out from under the throne; unless the GWT is not the same as the throne of Matt 25 then I suppose they would appear as a mixed crowd. But since I'm convinced the Matt 25 and Rev 20 judgement are the same, the two groups are standing apart, one on the right and one on the left.

In any case it's going to occur even if I have the details wrong and my understanding is not where it should be (not unlikely).

Yes I referred to Matt 25. And both groups are before the Lord at the same time. Interesting that you say Matt 25 and are the same judgment. I believe it the same way, even though I have seen so many deny this. But is it AFTER the 1, 000 yrs.? I say, no. 

If you consider that the original manuscripts had zero punctuation marks, a digression could be hard to spot. That is what we see in Rev. 20, John takes us a thousand yrs. into the future then returns to the events right after Jesus' second coming. by putting parentheses around vv. 7-10 it becomes very clear, perhaps one could go as far back to v. 5 for the parenthetical digression before continuing the narrative. 

So then, want to talk about , "the rest of the dead"?

Edited May 25, 2019 by Uriah
sentence arrangement

[Diaste]

On 5/25/2019 at 5:58 AM, Uriah said:

If you consider that the original manuscripts had zero punctuation marks, a digression could be hard to spot. That is what we see in Rev. 20, John takes us a thousand yrs. into the future then returns to the events right after Jesus' second coming. by putting parentheses around vv. 7-10 it becomes very clear, perhaps one could go as far back to v. 5 for the parenthetical digression before continuing the narrative. 

Yes, it's why a precise timeline is elusive as a unicorn. I've tried but except for major events as laid out in Matt 24 by Jesus it's sometimes difficult. I find consistency in antecedents and try to doggedly retain the context as the interpreter of the flow of the story. This allows for parenthetical passages and the return to the main narrative.

There is a lot of this happening in Rev 20. For lack of a better way to describe it Jon has us in the present, then the future, back to present then back to the future again.

 

On 5/25/2019 at 5:58 AM, Uriah said:

So then, want to talk about , "the rest of the dead"?

Sure. You start.:)

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Sure. You start.:)

                 Sure. Let me start with what I DON'T believe about that verse (the rest of the dead). I don't see it as indicating a resurrection of ONLY beheaded people, and ONLY people who who resisted the mark.  I see v. 4 as noting people of extraordinary character having honorable mention among the overall number of resurrected people.

                 So, "the rest of the dead" are anyone who dies after the millennium begins. So it is important to discern when that begins. The scenario that fits is found in the previous chapter. Rev. 19:1-(perhaps up to) 8 is a picture of the rapture. I say THAT is the the "NEW DAY", the first day of the millennium! This makes it so that even all of the armies that will be destroyed in the following verses will be raised to be judged 1,000 yrs. later. But all those who died even up to the day before, will be standing before the Great White/Glorious Throne as the goats at the same time the "sheep" are told to "enter".

                 One exception (as God sometimes does): two people (the only two I can find) are thrown into the lake of fire without having to die first.

 

[Diaste]

On 5/27/2019 at 7:23 AM, Uriah said:

   Sure. Let me start with what I DON'T believe about that verse (the rest of the dead). I don't see it as indicating a resurrection of ONLY beheaded people, and ONLY people who who resisted the mark.  I see v. 4 as noting people of extraordinary character having honorable mention among the overall number of resurrected people.

Agree. The first sentence of Rev 20:4 can only be that, imo. Then the martyrs as well, as it is written.

On 5/27/2019 at 7:23 AM, Uriah said:

             So, "the rest of the dead" are anyone who dies after the millennium begins. So it is important to discern when that begins. The scenario that fits is found in the previous chapter. Rev. 19:1-(perhaps up to) 8 is a picture of the rapture. I say THAT is the the "NEW DAY", the first day of the millennium! This makes it so that even all of the armies that will be destroyed in the following verses will be raised to be judged 1,000 yrs. later. But all those who died even up to the day before, will be standing before the Great White/Glorious Throne as the goats at the same time the "sheep" are told to "enter".

Here it gets a little murky for me. Maybe I'm not grasping your point so if I may I'd like to ask a couple questions. I apologize in advance for not waiting for your answer.

Where then are the dead 'not in Christ' from the time after Jesus ascended to the time of Rev 20?

Does not Paul only mention the dead in Christ being raised, and the living translated and not the dead apart from Christ?

Would it make sense that all the dead from the ascension to the 2nd coming are also included in, "The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete."?

I pretty much agree with your assessment of Rev 19 mentioned above however;

If the words in Rev 20 "The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete." are spoken in the context of the beginning of the Millennium and the resurrection of martyrs and the 'people of extraordinary character having honorable mention among the overall number of resurrected people.' then the statement must be referring to the rest of the dead prior to the beginning of the Millennium, not excluding those who die right to the end of the 1000 years, as you noted.

Sorry, that was more than two...

 

 

 

 

 

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Agree. The first sentence of Rev 20:4 can only be that, imo. Then the martyrs as well, as it is written.

Here it gets a little murky for me. Maybe I'm not grasping your point so if I may I'd like to ask a couple questions. I apologize in advance for not waiting for your answer.

Where then are the dead 'not in Christ' from the time after Jesus ascended to the time of Rev 20?

Does not Paul only mention the dead in Christ being raised, and the living translated and not the dead apart from Christ?

Would it make sense that all the dead from the ascension to the 2nd coming are also included in, "The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete."?

I pretty much agree with your assessment of Rev 19 mentioned above however;

If the words in Rev 20 "The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete." are spoken in the context of the beginning of the Millennium and the resurrection of martyrs and the 'people of extraordinary character having honorable mention among the overall number of resurrected people.' then the statement must be referring to the rest of the dead prior to the beginning of the Millennium, not excluding those who die right to the end of the 1000 years, as you noted.

Sorry, that was more than two...

    The dead,"not in Christ" from the time Jesus ascended are first of all,"in the graves" just as believers are ...bodily. Now the spirits of the believers being absent from the body, go to be present with the Lord. This presents the question of how they can "enter in" without having faced the GWT judgment when believers are told to enter in! A dilemma? No. In Isaiah it says God "inhabiteth eternity", which pertains to time. It is safe to say that with Him there is no time, as in, a constant state of NOW. therefore when Jesus says that those who believe in Him are, "passed from death unto life" it takes on a greater meaning. I for one see it as a way to explain time travel at the point of death. To the believer who died long ago it would seem that he almost immediately was present with the Lord. And I might add that when he experiences that WE would meet him a few seconds later ...in the air with Jesus!

    The only other place the dead, "not in Christ" can be throughout that period is Just where Jesus said they would be, in "outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth", with a " "terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries." It may very well be that inversely, a person who died a day before the millennium  could perceive the NON passage of time as seemingly a great deal of time while awaiting the judgment.

    Yes, Paul was only speaking about the thing believers asked about believers. I see the dead from the time of the ascension until His return as being covered in the illustration Jesus used about going away to receive a kingdom and when he returned he said bring those who would not have me rule over them before me and slay them before me. His teaching in this place describes what it will be like at HIS return.

    May be a bit of confusion on your last point above. It is NOT a martyrs only resurrection for the reasons I already showed. Take for example, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:". We would be forced to assume that those people were martyrs. Or, "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth" these are people from every kindred, tongue etc. All martyrs? No, they reign with Him, which is for 1,000 yrs. So the martyrs and those who refused the mark (don't even have to be martyrs, but are alive and remain) are some among the overall number of resurrected people.

    And I'll add one further point. Read Heb. 11:39 & 40 and you'll see that even the O.T. people are awaiting the same resurrection too. It clearly shows they CANNOT be raised without us.

[Diaste]

On 5/29/2019 at 8:06 AM, Uriah said:

May be a bit of confusion on your last point above. It is NOT a martyrs only resurrection for the reasons I already showed. Take for example, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:". We would be forced to assume that those people were martyrs. Or, "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth" these are people from every kindred, tongue etc. All martyrs? No, they reign with Him, which is for 1,000 yrs. So the martyrs and those who refused the mark (don't even have to be martyrs, but are alive and remain) are some among the overall number of resurrected people.

Correct. The 1st resurrection is not a martyrs only resurrection. It is the dead in Christ and those who are alive an remain. So all of the dead in Jesus from the Ascension to moment of the resurrection are raised, and then the living in Christ are translated to be forever with the Lord, as it is written. (No need for GWT judgement for these people, though it may be they appear there as a formality. I don't know but either way the people in the 1st resurrection are ONLY those in Christ)

So then we have the dead not in Christ from the time of the Ascension to the end of the 1000 years, who were not raised at the time of our Lord's coming. Scripture only records the dead in Christ and the living, the elect, are raised or translated at His return. So when scripture says, "the rest of the dead lived not again till the 1000 years were finished" this has to be the dead not in Christ from the Ascension to the end of the Millennium.

 

On 5/29/2019 at 8:06 AM, Uriah said:

    And I'll add one further point. Read Heb. 11:39 & 40 and you'll see that even the O.T. people are awaiting the same resurrection too. It clearly shows they CANNOT be raised without us.

That's true. But this only accounts for the dead in Christ, not the dead 'not in Christ'. Those not in Christ from whatever point in history long past are awaiting the 2nd resurrection which will resurrect all the dead apart from Christ from ages past to the end of the Millennium.

Now whether this means that the OT souls in Christ are awaiting resurrection or Paul meant that their perfection and ours are homogeneous is, I suppose, debatable. I rest on the latter.

I would say then this, "It clearly shows they CANNOT be raised without us." is not correct and Paul was speaking to a universal salvation and perfection applied equally to all. The Greek speaks to a holistic perfection excluding any separation of groups by time or revelation.

 

[Montana Marv]

There are only two types of Resurrections. The First for the Just. The Second for the Unjust.

Christ was the First fruit of the Resurrection for the Just. Then each in it's own order. 

When is the next order of time for the Just and the following sequence for the Just. 2nd, 3rd, 4th fruits.

The Bride is only one part of those who are of the Just.

In Christ

Montana Marv