Defense of the Mid Trib Rapture

[Larry 2]

 

 

ghtan - The text is unclear who the 24 elders are. Some think they may be angelic beings. My guess is that they are great servants of God who died before John wrote. People like Moses, etc.. They are still in spirit form since the rapture has not happened yet.  

 

Larry 2 - Since Revelation is revealing Jesus, He is the head of the church, and we read in Act 15:14,  Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. What do you think a people for His name will be? Will this be the bride of Christ?

Paul said it like this in 2 Cor 11:2.  For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Php 3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ. Is there something in these scriptures indicating there is more than just getting to heaven?

You mention the possibility of Moses being in spirit form ascending to be the twenty-four elders.

Allow me to run this by you. Jesus said of John the Baptist, Luk 7:28  For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he, but John say below that his reward will being the friend of the bridegroom; not the bride.

 

Joh 3:29  He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

 

I would then ask just who of the Church qualifies to be the bride of our Savior if not those of Smyrna that remained faithful unto death? Rev 2:10.

 

One other thing Paul brings out in 2 Tim 2:12, If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: . .

Could the following scripture allude to that same thought concerning the 24 elders?

Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth.

 

ghtan - Taking a step back, I think there are two main ways John could depict the rapture. One way would be to picture the process, i.e. show many people ascending into heaven. There are three ascensions in Rev - John, the two witnesses and the man-child. Of these, the two witnesses has by far the best case. The second way would be to picture the product of the rapture, i.e. a multitude suddenly appearing in heaven. This is exactly what we have in 7:9. John even tells us they "came out of the great tribulation" (7:14).

 

Larry 2 - Those of Rev 7:9 and Rev 12:5 surely seem to be mid-trib translations.

 

Hi Larry,

 

The last time I had a discussion on Rev 5:10 with someone on this board, it ended unpleasantly. I hope it will be different this time, even if we disagree with each other in the end.

 

The reading you quote is only in the KJV, and perhaps in some other old translations. Almost all modern translations, e.g. NIV, ESV, NASB, NRSV, NLT, you name it, etc. translate us/we as them/they. E.g. in the NIV it is:

 

"You have made THEM to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and THEY will reign on the earth." (emphasis mine)

 

Therefore, if the modern translators are correct, the verse actually proves that the 24 elders cannot be the raptured church because they would not refer to themselves as 'them/they'.

 

Of course, there as some KJV-only believers and for them the modern translators are all intentionally mistranslating this text. I do not know whether you are one but, if you are, I would appeal to you to consider that such an accusation would tantamount to saying that all those modern COMMITTEES (no modern translation is the work of only one or a few individuals) of translators are conspiring against the KJV. I really don't see any reason why they should.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Dear Brother ghtan, we don’t have to agree. I simply give out what I do to open the imagination concerning scripture, especially of end times, and I’ll not argue it, but simply offer discussion into possible differences most have never considered, and then I might also learn.

 

I am aware of the wording differences in Rev 5:9-10 between the KJV and other Bibles. You had considered that Moses might be one of the 24 elders, and would it have made it correct if he had sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

Oops. Moses or other Old Testament elect could not have said that; they were of Israel. 

 

Thanks.  

[Sister]

Sister - The 144,000 are alive at the time of Sealing.  They are sealed just before the tribulation.  

 

Larry 2 - I disagree with this due to the fact that Revelation Chapter Seven occurs during the first 3 1/2  years of tribulation said to be the “Temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Rev 3:10)

 

Larry

 

Revelation 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed ......the servants of our God .....in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

If the 144,000 are not alive at the time of sealing are you saying that they are dead?

[Larry 2]

 

Sister - The 144,000 are alive at the time of Sealing.  They are sealed just before the tribulation.  

 

Larry 2 - I disagree with this due to the fact that Revelation Chapter Seven occurs during the first 3 1/2  years of tribulation said to be the “Temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Rev 3:10)

 

Larry

 

Revelation 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed ......the servants of our God .....in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

If the 144,000 are not alive at the time of sealing are you saying that they are dead?

 

 

Hi Sister, due to 1 Thes 4:16-17 I personally believe any we find caught up to heaven such as the 144,000 will have dead among them raised first, and then those were kept from hurt of Rev 7:3 caught up together with them in the cloud of witnesses that preceded them.

And then the thought comes to me that these 144,000 were not to be hurt UNTIL they were sealed.

[Sister]

 

 

Sister - The 144,000 are alive at the time of Sealing.  They are sealed just before the tribulation.  

 

Larry 2 - I disagree with this due to the fact that Revelation Chapter Seven occurs during the first 3 1/2  years of tribulation said to be the “Temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Rev 3:10)

 

Larry

 

Revelation 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed ......the servants of our God .....in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

If the 144,000 are not alive at the time of sealing are you saying that they are dead?

 

 

Hi Sister, due to 1 Thes 4:16-17 I personally believe any we find caught up to heaven such as the 144,000 will have dead among them raised first, and then those were kept from hurt of Rev 7:3 caught up together with them in the cloud of witnesses that preceded them.

And then the thought comes to me that these 144,000 were not to be hurt UNTIL they were sealed.

 

Dear Larry

 

I think I am disrupting the purpose for this thread by speaking in detail about the 144,000.  I will stop here as we are going back and forth too much.

I invite you or anyone else to continue with me in our discussions over in the "Different Raptures" thread;

[ghtan]

 

 

 

ghtan - The text is unclear who the 24 elders are. Some think they may be angelic beings. My guess is that they are great servants of God who died before John wrote. People like Moses, etc.. They are still in spirit form since the rapture has not happened yet.  

 

Larry 2 - Since Revelation is revealing Jesus, He is the head of the church, and we read in Act 15:14,  Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. What do you think a people for His name will be? Will this be the bride of Christ?

Paul said it like this in 2 Cor 11:2.  For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Php 3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ. Is there something in these scriptures indicating there is more than just getting to heaven?

You mention the possibility of Moses being in spirit form ascending to be the twenty-four elders.

Allow me to run this by you. Jesus said of John the Baptist, Luk 7:28  For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he, but John say below that his reward will being the friend of the bridegroom; not the bride.

 

Joh 3:29  He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

 

I would then ask just who of the Church qualifies to be the bride of our Savior if not those of Smyrna that remained faithful unto death? Rev 2:10.

 

One other thing Paul brings out in 2 Tim 2:12, If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: . .

Could the following scripture allude to that same thought concerning the 24 elders?

Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth.

 

ghtan - Taking a step back, I think there are two main ways John could depict the rapture. One way would be to picture the process, i.e. show many people ascending into heaven. There are three ascensions in Rev - John, the two witnesses and the man-child. Of these, the two witnesses has by far the best case. The second way would be to picture the product of the rapture, i.e. a multitude suddenly appearing in heaven. This is exactly what we have in 7:9. John even tells us they "came out of the great tribulation" (7:14).

 

Larry 2 - Those of Rev 7:9 and Rev 12:5 surely seem to be mid-trib translations.

 

Hi Larry,

 

The last time I had a discussion on Rev 5:10 with someone on this board, it ended unpleasantly. I hope it will be different this time, even if we disagree with each other in the end.

 

The reading you quote is only in the KJV, and perhaps in some other old translations. Almost all modern translations, e.g. NIV, ESV, NASB, NRSV, NLT, you name it, etc. translate us/we as them/they. E.g. in the NIV it is:

 

"You have made THEM to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and THEY will reign on the earth." (emphasis mine)

 

Therefore, if the modern translators are correct, the verse actually proves that the 24 elders cannot be the raptured church because they would not refer to themselves as 'them/they'.

 

Of course, there as some KJV-only believers and for them the modern translators are all intentionally mistranslating this text. I do not know whether you are one but, if you are, I would appeal to you to consider that such an accusation would tantamount to saying that all those modern COMMITTEES (no modern translation is the work of only one or a few individuals) of translators are conspiring against the KJV. I really don't see any reason why they should.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Dear Brother ghtan, we don’t have to agree. I simply give out what I do to open the imagination concerning scripture, especially of end times, and I’ll not argue it, but simply offer discussion into possible differences most have never considered, and then I might also learn.

 

I am aware of the wording differences in Rev 5:9-10 between the KJV and other Bibles. You had considered that Moses might be one of the 24 elders, and would it have made it correct if he had sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

Oops. Moses or other Old Testament elect could not have said that; they were of Israel. 

 

Thanks.  

 

Ha! Ha! Are you trying to catch me out? You will find that 'us' in that text is also peculiar to KJV. The word is actually not in the greek text, at least according to most modern translations and so they insert 'men', 'people', etc, instead to catch the sense. If they are right, Moses could certainly say that.

[Larry 2]

Ha! Ha! Are you trying to catch me out? You will find that 'us' in that text is also peculiar to KJV. The word is actually not in the greek text, at least according to most modern translations and so they insert 'men', 'people', etc, instead to catch the sense. If they are right, Moses could certainly say that.

 

 

Dear Brother ghtan, we don’t have to agree. I simply give out what I do to open the imagination concerning scripture, especially of end times, and I’ll not argue it, but simply offer discussion into possible differences most have never considered, and then I might also learn.

 

I am aware of the wording differences in Rev 5:9-10 between the KJV and other Bibles. You had considered that Moses might be one of the 24 elders, and would it have made it correct if he had sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

Oops. Moses or other Old Testament elect could not have said that; they were of Israel. 

 

Thanks.  

 

 

I did have a bit of fun using Moses as “Us,” but allow me to ask: if Moses were the one in Rev 4:4, and speaking in Rev 5:9, do you think he would have sang of others than him as being purchased for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

 

NIV - Rev 5:9   they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

 

NIV – Rev 5:10  You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they (not Moses?) will reign on the earth."

[ghtan]

 

Ha! Ha! Are you trying to catch me out? You will find that 'us' in that text is also peculiar to KJV. The word is actually not in the greek text, at least according to most modern translations and so they insert 'men', 'people', etc, instead to catch the sense. If they are right, Moses could certainly say that.

 

 

Dear Brother ghtan, we don’t have to agree. I simply give out what I do to open the imagination concerning scripture, especially of end times, and I’ll not argue it, but simply offer discussion into possible differences most have never considered, and then I might also learn.

 

I am aware of the wording differences in Rev 5:9-10 between the KJV and other Bibles. You had considered that Moses might be one of the 24 elders, and would it have made it correct if he had sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

Oops. Moses or other Old Testament elect could not have said that; they were of Israel. 

 

Thanks.  

 

 

I did have a bit of fun using Moses as “Us,” but allow me to ask: if Moses were the one in Rev 4:4, and speaking in Rev 5:9, do you think he would have sang of others than him as being purchased for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

 

NIV - Rev 5:9   they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

 

NIV – Rev 5:10  You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they (not Moses?) will reign on the earth."

 

I don't see any problem with Moses rejoicing in heaven in first century AD as he sees OTHERS being purchased for God from every tribe, etc.. If you do, please explain your reservations. What word should he use instead?

 

Those that are being redeemed will reign on the earth during the church age as Paul says in Romans 5:17. Moses was already in heaven, so he could not possibly include himself in 5:10. He will reign on earth later, after Jesus' second coming but not during the church age.

[Larry 2]

I don't see any problem with Moses rejoicing in heaven in first century AD as he sees OTHERS being purchased for God from every tribe, etc.. If you do, please explain your reservations. What word should he use instead?

 

 

 

Those that are being redeemed will reign on the earth during the church age as Paul says in Romans 5:17. Moses was already in heaven, so he could not possibly include himself in 5:10. He will reign on earth later, after Jesus' second coming but not during the church age.

 

 

You do realize that Rev 5:10 was future viewpoint to the time Jesus takes His rule on the Lord’s Day don’t you? I do realize that Moses is in paradise though I have no idea those will be a part of the Church.

Paradise was taken captive to heaven from the lower parts of the earth in the following scriptures.

 

Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

 

Up until this present time that would be 2000+ years so far, and again according these verses all take effect after Rev 4:1 when John is instructed that he will be shown things which must be hereafter from that point.

The closest thing I can find to support your theory is in Heb 11:2  For by it THE ELDERS obtained a good report, and Hebrews Chapter Eleven goes on to mention the worthies of faith, and sure enough Moses was one of them. (Heb 11:24)

 

We also saw Moses & Elias appear with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration to Peter, James, and John.

 

John the Baptist said He would just be the friend of the bridegroom leaving me to believe none of the Old Testament elect would be of the Church.

Joh 3:29  He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 

[ghtan]

 

You do realize that Rev 5:10 was future viewpoint to the time Jesus takes His rule on the Lord’s Day don’t you? I do realize that Moses is in paradise though I have no idea those will be a part of the Church.

 

Ah! Maybe this is the root of the difference between our views. Are you suggesting that 5:10 takes place during the end time? What is there in the text that leads you to that belief? From my point of view, everything in ch 4&5 is still first century AD; the end time starts in ch 6.

[Larry 2]

 

 

You do realize that Rev 5:10 was future viewpoint to the time Jesus takes His rule on the Lord’s Day don’t you? I do realize that Moses is in paradise though I have no idea those will be a part of the Church.

 

Ah! Maybe this is the root of the difference between our views. Are you suggesting that 5:10 takes place during the end time? What is there in the text that leads you to that belief? From my point of view, everything in ch 4&5 is still first century AD; the end time starts in ch 6.

 

The Lord’s Day, or Day of the Lord shall be like none other shall ever be.

It will begin with the Lord Jesus being given His own throne in Rev 4:2, the beginning of His thousand year reign, or as futurists proclaim; the millennium.

 

John said in Rev 1:10 that he was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and this isn’t Sunday. He heard the voice of Jesus having received all power announcing in Rev 1:8,  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty, and in Rev 1:11  Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.

 

From that point in time, or vision viewpoints given John we read in Rev 1:19, Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

 

Other references to that same Lord’s Day are expressions and idioms such as “The Day of the Lord, in the last days, and in that day.

 

2 Pet 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This Day lasts a thousand years.

 

Isa 2:2  And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Where is this?

Heb 12:22 tells us where this is at. But ye are come unto mount Sion (Zion in Hebrew), and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

Isaiah 2:2    And it shall come to pass in the last days . . Idiom 

 

Isaiah 2:11  . . the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

 

Isa 4:1  And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Isa 4:2  In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

 

Isa 10:20  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

 

Isa 11:11  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

 

Zec 2:11  And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

 

Zec 12:3  And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.