Multiple Wives

[nebula]

We have have been discussing the holy men of God specifically Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Gideon and many others. That is to say they lived holy lives. They never divorced. They provided for their families. They did not use women as sex toys and discard them, as men do today with increasing frequency. They did not abandon their children. In short, they were obedient to God.

I am going to say this to your face.

If you believe that polygamy was a part of what made these men live holy lives, you are a sick man.

[Guest drbelitz]

Multiple wives ended when Jesus spoke of the immorality that needed a divorce. He was speaking of invalid marriages such as polygamous nes and mixed marriages that were not allowed at the time, that were not valid, but immoral in the sight of God and never a marriage to begin with.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

I want to add something here.

Abrahams whole situation with Hagar wasn't Gods idea. It was his wifes. He accepted it out of frustration. He was awaiting the Blessing of God and the promise of Gods Word to be in full bloom. Alas like all of us he thought he could push foward Gods timetable through some effort of his own. Even at the request of his wife , Sara. The trick is that the whole time he was indeed Blessed of God.

It was Sara that laughed when God suggested that she would bear a child in her old age. It does not abolish Abrahams role in waiting on Gods perfect will either. He wa a sinful man just like you and I. He was accounted righteousness by Faith by belief on Gods Word. Though he fell many times and failed on his own merit. His Holiness and Salvation were not dependant upon any thing he could do anyway. He was in covenant with God. When God could swear by no higher power. He swore by His own name. Thus Abraham had a solid, Rock solid, Promise built upon Gods Holiness and not his own. Thanks be to God for that. Otherwise we would all be left to our own devices. Which time and time again fail us and cause us to make unholy decisions. Like the union with Hagar which brought grief to Abraham and Sara and mortal danger to the child of the Promise, Issac.

Let's review something in affort to get at what God has desired for man and not what man has desired for himself. For at the root of Polygamy is self gratification and actualization and not Gods perfect will.

God ordained Marriage between Adam and Eve. He blessed their line despite their sin. Much like Abraham. he chose their lineage to bring forth the Messiah. Were there sinners and Polygamists in that line? You bet ya. Why? It speaks of redemption when we have fallen from Grace. It speaks of Humility that often was the result of the actions of the sinner after God had literally had to change the individual through much suffering. Often caused by the individuals own actions.

It was a child of Cain whose Spiritual line ended upon his choosing the curse instead of the Blessing. That first chose the route of Polygamy.

Mal

[Guest shiloh357]

The claims by one of the posters that all polygamous marriages were invalid is absurd.

All you have to do is prove that polygamy was ordained by God. All you have to do is prove that God accepted polygamy as having equal footing with true, biblical marriage. Also you need to prove that God blessed polygamy. The fact that God blessed someone living in polygamy is not an approval of polygamy, itself.

That would have made Jacob an adulterer, yet God blessed him and used his 2 wives and 2 concubines to bring about the establishment of the 12 tribes in Israel.

Jacob is different. Jacob only wanted one wife and was tricked into marrying a woman he did not love. He only loved Rachel. Jacob would have been in his rights to divorce Leah, but it would have, in that culture, condemned Leah to life singleness and childlessness, seeing that she was no longer a virgin.

Jacob's situation is another example of what I mean when I talk about the favor of one wife over another. Rachel was favored, and Leah was not. Even though Leah, was the first bear a son for Jacob, the rights of firstborn went to Joseph, because Joseph was the firstborn of the wife that Jacob loved. That is what the "coat of many colors" meant. It was his father's statement of blessing upon Joseph, placing him at the head of his older brothers, all of whom no doubt thought that Reuben should have received that honor.

While there is no doubt that Matthitjah is correct in saying God did not desire Abraham to take Hagar as a wife, later in his life he took concubines with no rebuke from God.

That was part of the culture, but it was not part of God's plan. God's ONLY plan for marriage was one man and one woman. Therefore, polygamy is not part of God's Will. He only ordains what is in His Will.

While I believe the practice was pretty well done away with at the time of Jesus anyway in Israel, other nations still had it, so when these gentiles received the gospel, where is the compassion towards their wives?

Well, the problem is that you cannot refute what Jesus said. Jesus said that a man who is not properly divorced and goes and marries another woman while the previous marriage is still in force is committing adultery.

When the Gentiles received the Gospel, the same compassion would have been shown to them and their wives as God did for the ancient Israelites. There were restrictions, though. While polygamy was not condemned, a polygamist could not be a deacon or a pastor. Second the list of qualifications for both offices was that the men had to be the husband of one wife. Interestingly, while polygamy is not condemned, it is discouraged because of all of the admonishments given to believers to emulate and use as examples, those men of God who are living righteous, sober, monogomous lives before the Lord. Polygamy is not condemned, and no one who came into the faith as a polygamist is told to pick one wife and discard the others, but it is never encouraged and is in fact discouraged. God does not hold polygamy in high regard.

[kittyjo]

How Many Wives?

A little boy was attending his first wedding. After the service, his cousin asked him, "How many women can a man marry?" "Sixteen," the boy responded.

His cousin was amazed the he had an answer so quickly. "How do you know that?" "Easy," the little boy said. "All you have to do is add it up, like the Bishop said: 4 better, 4 worse, 4 richer, 4 poorer."

I thought ya'll deserved an intermission.

[firehill]

Is it sinful? It sure can be. Example: A man marries multiple women because he sees them with lust as sex objects.

Is it encouraged. NO WAY. Shiloh357 has spoken to this.

Was it ever God's will? It was never even ordained in the beginning!

Is it a perversion of biblical marriage? YES.

Was it ever blessed. NEVER

Who created it? FALLEN MAN.

[firehill]

Is it sinful? It sure can be. Example: A man marries multiple women because he sees them with lust as sex objects.

Is it encouraged. NO WAY. Shiloh357 has spoken to this.

Was it ever God's will? It was never even ordained in the beginning!

Apparantly you must think God violated his own will then, since God said HE gave David his WIVES, and would have gave him more WIVES if he had asked.

Is it a perversion of biblical marriage? YES.

Was it ever blessed. NEVER

Who created it? FALLEN MAN.

Was it ever forbidden? No, except for the office of pastor or deacon.

Was it ever called a sin? No.

God cannot violate that which He ordains. Polygamy was NEVER ordained. Shiloh357 already addressed the issue of David you bring up.

It was forbidden directly therein 1 Tim which is good enough! It was forbidden for the those who desire to serve as episkope and diakonos. Shiloh357 also has already addressed this issue.

It can be a sin and to be sure it is a perversion!

[Guest LadyC]

firehill, you confuse me no end. you're all over the board on this one. one minute you're agreeing with butero and the next you're agreeing with shiloh. you're making me dizzy.

[Guest shiloh357]

Apparantly you must think God violated his own will then, since God said HE gave David his WIVES, and would have gave him more WIVES if he had asked.

No, the "wives" God gave him were Saul's wife and concubine. There is no biblical record of David marrying either one of them and having children by either of them. Secondly the wives David did have children by, are not recorded as having been given to David.

The "wives" God gave him were of Saul's household, and were symbols (along with everything else in Saul's house that was given to him) symbols of his absolute regal authority and sovereignty as the rightful successor to King Saul as ruler over Israel.

[firehill]

firehill, you confuse me no end. you're all over the board on this one. one minute you're agreeing with butero and the next you're agreeing with shiloh. you're making me dizzy.

My Posts:

#76

Excellent scriptural points, Shiloh357.

#96

Is that which is of the fallen nature sinful? I'd say so. Since man ruling over woman was an effect of the fall that is the fallen nature then I'd say that slavery (the rule over another by force) is sinful. God catered to the fallen nature of humans during the OT and NT. He never implemented slavery or the rule over others as a good thing.

#102 in response to Shiloh357 post:

There ya have it!

# 145

The husband is the head of the wife (SINGULAR). He is not the head OF WIVES (and not of the home/house/family either) therefore polygamy is not biblical. It is a fallen institution and is not of God but rather the fallen nature.

In #156

I addressed how polygamy is a perversion of biblical marriage, how biblical marriage became perverted in the patriarchal culture, and it's end is in realizing polygamy's perversion. Also therein I responded to something Lionroot posted, I said that polygamy is not a right given to anyone, and that the it can be sinful.

#165

Is it sinful? It sure can be. Example: A man marries multiple women because he sees them with lust as sex objects.

Is it encouraged. NO WAY. Shiloh357 has spoken to this.

Was it ever God's will? It was never even ordained in the beginning!

Is it a perversion of biblical marriage? YES.

Was it ever blessed. NEVER

Who created it? FALLEN MAN.

Maybey you have confused me with someone else?