Multiple Wives

[firehill]

Shiloh, I don't think anybody really wants to listen to sound and Godly advice, exept a few.

Thank you so much for all the time you spend to make people understand that pologamy is and was never pleasing to the Lord and that it never got blessed. God gave Adam a wife and not wifes.

But if you see how much trouble their is in the life style of pologamy , I don't think you can say its a personal blessing, God will can use any circumstansis for good if He wants too, but that does not mean he is blessing the lifestyle of pologamy.

Thanks

Angels:)

Good post!

[firehill]

Shiloh, I don't think anybody really wants to listen to sound and Godly advice, exept a few.

As far as Shiloh's position goes, I agree with part of it. I do believe a one man one woman marriage to be better than a polygamous one, but disagree that God did not bless people who were in such relationships,

None one claims that God did not bless PEOPLE who were in such relationships.

...and in the case of Jacob, I believe it was God's will he have 2 wives and 2 concubines and that he chose to use all 4 of these women to give birth to the 12 men who would be the head of the 12 tribes of Israel. I can't think of a much greater blessing than to be the one who was the Father of these sons, and even be blessed with the priviledge of having one's name changed to Israel by God.

Polygamy was 'accepted' not ordained by God. As angels4u has already said, ' pologamy is and was never pleasing to the Lord and that it never got blessed. God gave Adam a wife and not wifes.

But if you see how much trouble their is in the life style of pologamy , I don't think you can say its a personal blessing, God will can use any circumstansis for good if He wants too, but that does not mean he is blessing the lifestyle of pologamy.'

When you get down to it, the only point I really think we disagree on is that God ever blessed anyone who was in polygamy and that God ever ordained that a polygamous marriage take place.

A disagreement that keeps showing up in this thread is NOT over whether or not God ever blessed anyone who was in polygamy BUT rather over whether or not God blessed the institution of polygamy. God never ordained that a polygamous marriage take place.

I am assuming that Shiloh's belief is that all 12 men who would head the Jewish nation were supposed to be born of Rachel. Since Jacob was tricked into marrying Leah, that is where the problems began. If that is the position he wishes to take, so be it, but I don't see it that way. I don't see why God would bless each of the women with children if that was the case. In reality, since Leah was his first wife, she would be the one you would think would have had all 12 children and the other 3 left barren, but that didn't happen.

Were supposed to be born of Rachel? Not a living soul can ever say such and such was supposed to be born of such and such. Ludicrous. God blessed the women, no matter what the the case was.

In conclusion, both Angels4u and Firehill have endorsed Shiloh's position so that means that they also agree that polygamy is not a sin. It may be inferior to a one man one woman marriage, but it is not a sin. Since the only area we disagree on is over God blessing someone in polygamy, and since it is a matter of opinion, this is not really worth arguing over. Shiloh, and his supporters Angels4u and Firehill all believe these men and women were blessed "in spite of" their polygamy, and I believe they were simply blessed. Not that great of a difference when you really look at it. Maybe LadyC was right and the debate has run it's course. Only time will tell.

Not only is it 'inferior' but it is also perverse. No one disagress over whether or not God blessed someone in polygamy. (How many times does this need to be said?) Fact not opinion: God blessed people in such relationships not the relationship of polygamy itself. Yes, 'in spite of' AND 'simply blessed!' The GREAT difference is between the blessing of the instititution of polygamy and God blessing the people in such relationship.

[Guest shiloh357]

I do believe a one man one woman marriage to be better than a polygamous one, but disagree that God did not bless people who were in such relationships

Yeah and for the 100th time, I did not say that God did not bless people who were involved in polygamy. If you bothered to actually slow down and read what I said, I said that there is no evidence that polygamy itself is blessed by God. God blessed people in spite of polygamy, not because of it.

I believe it was God's will he have 2 wives and 2 concubines and that he chose to use all 4 of these women to give birth to the 12 men who would be the head of the 12 tribes of Israel.

You can believe that if you want, but the Bible does not say it was God's Will for Jacob to engage in that behavior. Abraham did the same thing, and it only caused more problems for his descendents for generations. The Bible simply tells us what Jacob did. It does not say that God caused Jacob to sleep with the concubines. It does not say that God blessed those unions. It makes no value judgement either way. However that does not mean it was right, or that it was God's best. God's permission is not the same as God's approval.

Since the only area we disagree on is over God blessing someone in polygamy, and since it is a matter of opinion, this is not really worth arguing over.

No, you just don't pay attention. I never said that God did not bless anyone who was in polygamy. They were blessed in spite of it. Just like God blesses people in spite of the times they are not in his Will, even in our day.

I am assuming that Shiloh's belief is that all 12 men who would head the Jewish nation were supposed to be born of Rachel. Since Jacob was tricked into marrying Leah, that is where the problems began. If that is the position he wishes to take, so be it, but I don't see it that way. I don't see why God would bless each of the women with children if that was the case. In reality, since Leah was his first wife, she would be the one you would think would have had all 12 children and the other 3 left barren, but that didn't happen.

God worked through the situation even if it was not his best. Jacob would have been within his right to throw Leah out. He didn't though. God's best was for Jacob to marry the woman he loved. Why would it have been problematic for Rachel to bear all 12 children. Is it any more problematic than Sarah giving birth at age 90? The Bible shows us that God can salvage our situations and bring His Will to fruition despite less than desirable circumstances such as polygamy.

It may be inferior to a one man one woman marriage, but it is not a sin.

It is not just inferior. It is discouraged in the New Testament. It prevents any Christian involved in a polygamist arrangement from holding a leadership role in the Church. Monogamy is the Will of God, and the only perfect, God-endorsed/ordained marriage arrangement.

[MrsSealedEternal]

I can't prove it one way or the other, but I have thoughts that God was being compassionate towards Leah and the 2 concubines by blessing their womb. They were in a marriage where Rachel was loved and for them not to be able to bear children would of probably left them more lonely and humiliated. God saw fit to give them children to raise and allow them to be mothers, too.

[nebula]

That is what the Scriptures say - so Mrs.SE you are correct.

Also with Jacob's polygamy, the implication in Scripture is that it was a punishment. Seriously! Jacob who won his birthright through deceit in turn was deceived, and as a result ended up with two wives rather than one. The other two wives came as a result of jealousy and bickering between the two sisters. Oh yeah, God's way.

As for Abraham's polygamy, he was chosen by God while in a single union. Taking in Hagar was a sin that led to grief, and continues still to lead to grief. (Hint: who do Muslims claim to be the child of promise? Not Isaac. ) The other wife Abraham took came after Hagar (who had been a concubine, not a wife) was cast away and after Sarah died.

As for David, has anyone else read this in the Torah?

Deuteronomy 17

14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;

15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.

17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. . . .

What example did David give Solomon? And what was Solomon's downfall? (Hint: wives)

Also, notice who the mother of Absalom was?

1 Chronicles 3:2 - The third, Absalom the son of Maachah the daughter of Talmai king of Geshur:

David took a foreign wife - something of which the Lord warned against the people of Israel doing (Exodus 23:32,33; 34:16 Deuteronomy 7:3,4; Joshua 23:12,13).

What was the legacy of David's polygamy? Look at what happened with Absalom. Look at what happened to Solomon.

Speaking of Solomon, do you know who his mother was? Bathsheba, the woman David had an adulterous affair with. If one wishes to argue that the Lord's blessing through polygamy are evidence that polygamy is blessed by the Lord, then can the same be said for adultery?

No! But what we see here is evidence that the Lord is merciful and turns around even our failures and sin for good. In the lives of these men who had multiple wives we see the same thing - God's mercy making good out of our messes. Polygamy is one of these (a big mess, that is).

[Guest shiloh357]

I also will acknowledge that Shiloh has added to the fact polygamy is inferior to a traditional marriage that it is also discouraged. I would argue that he is wrong in saying that those in such a relationship are forbidden to hold any leadership positions in the church. They are not allowed to hold the office of bishop or deacon only, but neither are women according to the fact they must be the husband of one wife.

The issue of women in leadership is not pertinent to this discussion, and I will will not address it.

One only need to show from the New Testament where Polygamists were ever used in leadership in the Church. Every single instance of ANYONE having any prominence as far a church leadership was concerned, had no connection to polygamy. Either they were not married, as in Paul's case, or they were monogamous. That is not to say that God could not use polygamists in a layman's office so to speak, but they were never chosen to pastor a Church or serve as deacons. Deacons and Pastors were to be examples in every area of their life, according to 1 Timothy 3. It was their demonstrated ability to manage their own affairs that gave evidence of their fitness to manage the affairs of the congregation. As such, they were examples of Godly behavior, and one of the examples set was monogamy. We are repeatedly told to follow the examples of our Godly leaders who live sober, righteous, lives before the Lord. (1 Cor 4:6; 1 Cor 11:1 Phil 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess 1:6,7; 2 Thess 3:7,9; 1 Tim 4:12; Tit 2:7; 1 Pet 5:3). By setting up men who were monogamous in marriage as examples to be followed, it was discouragement to younger men from following the practice of polygamy.

Now, how can I make the "ludicrous" statement that so and so was supposed to be born of so and so? Simple. According to Shiloh, there is no reason to believe Rachel couldn't have given birth to 12 children. I agree. He also believes it was God's plan that Rachel be Jacob's only wife, yet at the same time, it was obviously God's plan Jacob have 12 sons to make up the head of the future 12 tribes. As such, if you believe God didn't really want Jacob to have 2 wives and 2 concubines, but really wanted him to be with Rachel, then it stands to reason it would have been his plan she have all 12 sons. This is not rocket science. If you Firehill are disputing this, then you must endorse the fact God's will was that the 12 children be born of the women they were born to meaning he endorsed polygamy in this instance.

God permits a lot of things to happen that He does not endorse. God works His Will through things that It was not in His perfect will to occur. That does not mean He endorses the event in question namely that Jacob married two women and slept with two concubines. It simply means that even when man strays from God's perfect plan, God is able to salvage the situation and continue to bring about his Will.

Had Abraham not slept with Hagar, many of Israel's woes might never have occurred. Much of the pain Israel faced historically was because of the sons of Ishmael. Had Abraham and Sarah been patient, the biblical history of Israel would have turned out entirely different. God would have healed Rachel's barrenness without resorting concubines, if Jacob had waited on the Lord. There was no endorsement of polygamy in this instance. God does not endorse what He does not ordain.

[Nevin]

hmh,Aug 17 2005, 09:49 PM]

Interesting how it started with one man and woman with Adam and Eve.

[Guest drbelitz]

hmh,Aug 17 2005, 09:49 PM]

Interesting how it started with one man and woman with Adam and Eve.

[Arthur Durnan]

The Mormon tenet of polygamy advanced by, and openly practiced by its first two Presidents, Smith & Young, is rightly condemned as a severe offence to the essential biblical dignity and equality of womanhood.

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[nebula]

I can't prove it one way or the other, but I have thoughts that God was being compassionate towards Leah and the 2 concubines by blessing their womb. They were in a marriage where Rachel was loved and for them not to be able to bear children would of probably left them more lonely and humiliated. God saw fit to give them children to raise and allow them to be mothers, too.

Before responding here, let me say that in the case of the post by Mrs Saved Eternal, I don't necessarily agree with your conclusions, but respect your opinion.

Butero:

Genesis 29:31-35

31 And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.

32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me.

33 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I was hated, he hath therefore given me this son also: and she called his name Simeon.

34 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi.

35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.

Genesis 30:16-21

16 And Jacob came out of the field in the evening, and Leah went out to meet him, and said, Thou must come in unto me; for surely I have hired thee with my son's mandrakes. And he lay with her that night.

17 And God hearkened unto Leah, and she conceived, and bare Jacob the fifth son.

18 And Leah said, God hath given me my hire, because I have given my maiden to my husband: and she called his name Issachar.

19 And Leah conceived again, and bare Jacob the sixth son.

20 And Leah said, God hath endued me with a good dowry; now will my husband dwell with me, because I have born him six sons: and she called his name Zebulun.

21 And afterwards she bare a daughter, and called her name Dinah.

If you likewise read about the sons born by the handmaidens of Leah and Rachel, you will see that they all came out of Leah's cry for love and Rachel's jealousy for children.

If you read further in Genesis, you will see the dysfunction passed on to Jacob's children. Reuban slept with one of Jacob's concubines. Judah had the situation with his sons and daughter-in-law. The 10 had hatred of Joseph due to Jacob's favor.

The story of Jacob would make great "Reality TV"