Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Guest Frankie boy]

Hi Kevin,

You said,

Now so as not to confuse Gods wrath and the worlds tribulation, we will experience great tribulation such being beheaded for out testimony and not bowing down to the evil one, rejection, not being able to buy or sell, not having a place to live (how can we pay rent/mortage if we are not allowed the transfer of monies), not being able to worship in the ways that we have become accustmed to (at least here in the US). It will most definately not be a pleasant time, but God will not forsakes us.

Me,

The seventieth week lasts 7 yrs per Dan 9. The Great Trib is approximately 3 1/2 yrs and begins at the Abombmination of Desolation of Mat 24:15. The church will not be gathered till after the AC and the apostacy occurs in 2 Thess 2. Jesus will then destroy the AC with the epiphany of His coming but before this, He will gather His bride in His decending of 1 Thess 4 which is the only resurrection of the saints (all of them, both dead and living) and also agrees with the mystery of 1 Cor 15:52. "Corruption" (the dead) shall put on "incorruption" and the "mortal" (the living ones) will put on "immortality". This all happens at the "First Resurrection" of ch 20. And notice that the martyrs also partake of this resurrection as well as those sitting on thrones. They can only sit on thrones when they receive their rewards at His Coming. But at least note the two groups of saints here.

Now for the question... If the GT happens in the last half of the week, and it does, for the AC has authority over the saints for 42 months (3 1/2 yrs) then where or what time frame do you have left for God's wrath?? Unless both the GT and the wrath are at the same point in time. So the church would have to be protected during this time as I have previously stated.

You,

But as far as when God pours out His wrath, I do not believe the church will be here, as a matter of fact we will come back with Him and fight at the battle of Armeggedon, clothed in righteousness.

Me,

Yes, we will come down with Him, for at this juncture, we have already met Him in the air.

And as far as the robes go, there is a difference in our washing "our" robes (martyrdom), and the robe of rightousness that Christ will clothe each believer in. Our robe is what we have done for Him, the other is what He will give us for our service as reward as "not loving our lives unto death".

You,

I also believe that these two events are the same:

Rev 19:5 And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants,

[Guest]

Now please understand that I am not being dogmatic on this view, but it appears that the church and the 144,000 (which are strictly from the 12 tribes of Israel) have different missions and timings. It also appears that they are not here at the same time.

Have you ever noticed the these 12 tribes are not identical with the tribes in the old testatment? Anyone have any ideas why?

[Guest]

I saw the question to the effect that the great trib is 3 1/2 years, as is the time period after the abomination, at least I think I am remembering the question right, and it was to the effect, that there was no time left for the wrath of God, so it had to be at the same time. I then saw a lengthy response, but i would like to make a short simple response.

Matt 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I am pretty simple minded, looks to me like

trib - celestial events- tribes morning as the see Jesus return to gather his elect, I am guessing that after the celestial things, is the twinkling of the eye, the Jesus comes to earth with His church (which He just gathered)

Now do a search on the phrase day of the Lord. You will find plenty, and you will discover that it is the day of God's wrath, and is accompanied with the Sun moon and stars going dark etc. This is not rocket science, is it?

so, sun moon stars are after the trib, if you believe Jesus. Day of the Lord is then, at the sun, moon, stars thing, if you believe scores of verses that say so, that is the day of God's wrath. Therefore, wrath is after the trib, is the really any other way to see this. This is not inference, this is exactly what the word says, check it out. As far as coming as a thief/imminent thing goes:

2 Peter 3:10

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

KJV

Now, doesn't that language sound really familiar? Is Peter trying to confuse us? I think not. The day of the Lord comes as a thief, but as we know, it is after the trib, so, people can know the timing of that, in the trib, but that day does not come on believers as a thief, precisely because Jesus and the apostles told us what to look for. Pre-tribbers look for a rapture before the trib, instead of what the bible tells us to look for. While some of the details are confusing and mysterious, these basic events are extremely clear and unambiguous, which is why we posties are so dumfounded at peoples inability so see the obvious.

Let me restate, that I admit the possibility that I could be wrong, never-the-less, this stuff is clearly laid out, harder to miss than the first coming and recognition of Messiah, yet, we wonder that the Jews could be so blind.

What is it that I am not seeing that the pre-tribbers see, I keep waiting for someone to show me an "aha!" verse or passage, and they show me inference. Sigh! Oh well, I guess I'll get it someday.

Now, what does disturb me, is where this day of the Lord thing plays out with respect to the millennium. Sounds post-trib pre-mill, but these events seem drastic, better suited to the post armageddon thing. I guest I need to study that part more, and sort it out, unless someone here has a grasp of that.

[JesusisGod2]

Hi Frankie,

I believe we are in agreement on most parts and some of what I said either its the way I wrote it or it was misunderstood.

I will study more on the robes so i will not comment on that at this time. My understanding of the robes is they are robes of righteousness which can only be obtained through faith in our Lord Jesus, However I do believe we are rewarded with crowns, through martyrdom, acts of charity, etc...

But I would like to respond to the following:

You,

I also believe that these two events are the same:

Rev 19:5 And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants,

[Guest Frankie boy]

I saw the question to the effect that the great trib is 3 1/2 years, as is the time period after the abomination, at least I think I am remembering the question right, and it was to the effect, that there was no time left for the wrath of God, so it had to be at the same time. I then saw a lengthy response, but i would like to make a short simple response.

Hi "O",

I agree that the GT maybe less than the time frame of the second half of the week. It begins somewhere in the midst and Rev 13 says the AC will have authority over the saints for 42 mo or 1260 days or times, time and 1/2 a time. These all seem to be during the second portion of the week. We seem to get this idea of the midst from Dan 9. So the question arises....Is the A of D of Mat 24:15 the exact middle or midst of the week? The 42 mo have to fit somewhere and then Jesus said He would shorten those days for the elects sake. But does the shortening of the days take away from the 42 mo. I don't think so, but I don't know exactly what He means except maybe if time went on any longer without the DOL, no flesh would survive.

Now the cosmic disturbances happen "before" the DOL but "after" the trib of those days per Joel 2 I believe. And then the "gathering" (rapture) happens.

So if the DOL is synonomis with the Wrath of Rev, then it seems that all we read of the trumpets and the bowls happen in a very short period of time. So, do you think the DOL is literal day or a period of time even continuing into the Millenium?

These are some of the questions that are not clear cut from the Word and all we seem to be left with is our own assumptions which I don't ever trust, at least for myself.

Got any "light" here?

Frankie boy

[JesusisGod2]

I saw the question to the effect that the great trib is 3 1/2 years, as is the time period after the abomination, at least I think I am remembering the question right, and it was to the effect, that there was no time left for the wrath of God, so it had to be at the same time. I then saw a lengthy response, but i would like to make a short simple response.

Matt 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I am pretty simple minded, looks to me like

trib - celestial events- tribes morning as the see Jesus return to gather his elect, I am guessing that after the celestial things, is the twinkling of the eye, the Jesus comes to earth with His church (which He just gathered)

Now do a search on the phrase day of the Lord. You will find plenty, and you will discover that it is the day of God's wrath, and is accompanied with the Sun moon and stars going dark etc. This is not rocket science, is it?

so, sun moon stars are after the trib, if you believe Jesus. Day of the Lord is then, at the sun, moon, stars thing, if you believe scores of verses that say so, that is the day of God's wrath. Therefore, wrath is after the trib, is the really any other way to see this. This is not inference, this is exactly what the word says, check it out. As far as coming as a thief/imminent thing goes:

2 Peter 3:10

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

KJV

Now, doesn't that language sound really familiar? Is Peter trying to confuse us? I think not. The day of the Lord comes as a thief, but as we know, it is after the trib, so, people can know the timing of that, in the trib, but that day does not come on believers as a thief, precisely because Jesus and the apostles told us what to look for. Pre-tribbers look for a rapture before the trib, instead of what the bible tells us to look for. While some of the details are confusing and mysterious, these basic events are extremely clear and unambiguous, which is why we posties are so dumfounded at peoples inability so see the obvious.

Let me restate, that I admit the possibility that I could be wrong, never-the-less, this stuff is clearly laid out, harder to miss than the first coming and recognition of Messiah, yet, we wonder that the Jews could be so blind.

What is it that I am not seeing that the pre-tribbers see, I keep waiting for someone to show me an "aha!" verse or passage, and they show me inference. Sigh!   Oh well, I guess I'll get it someday.

Now, what does disturb me, is where this day of the Lord thing plays out with respect to the millennium. Sounds post-trib pre-mill, but these events seem drastic, better suited to the post armageddon thing. I guest I need to study that part more, and sort it out, unless someone here has a grasp of that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen Omega,

Good stuff here, I agree that God has given us signs that point to the timing. We may not know the day nor the hour, but we will know the times.

  1 Thessalonians 5

1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.

2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day We are not of night nor of darkness;

Paul says that it will overtake the children of darkness, but the children of light will or should be expecting it and looking forward to it. Jesus makes the same reference

Luke 21:28

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Good stuff!!

In Jesus

Kevin

[Trinity]

When does the wrath of God meaning the Seals, Bowls and Trumpets come into the Tribulation? Don't say the End Because if you actually read the Book of Revelation You will see that it is spread throughtout the Tribulation...

[JesusisGod2]

When does the wrath of God meaning the Seals, Bowls and Trumpets come into the Tribulation? Don't say the End Because if you actually read the Book of Revelation  You will see that it is spread throughtout the Tribulation...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Trinity,

Great question.

I would also like to ask the question are Gods judgements and Gods wrath one and the same?

[Trinity]

The tribulation and the wrath are two differnt things.

The tribulation is the time when Satan will attempt to turn the faithful from God through persecution.

The Wrath of God is the time when God pours out his punishments on those who are unsaved.

The bowls of wrath begin at the 7th trumpet and I believe they are swift.

[Trinity]

Revelation 6:16

They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

(((Meaning the Seals!!!)))