Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Trinity]

Katyann

Where does it say satan will have his wrath?

[Guest Frankie boy]

Hi Kevin,

You,

My understanding of the robes is they are robes of righteousness which can only be obtained through faith in our Lord Jesus, However I do believe we are rewarded with crowns, through martyrdom, acts of charity, etc...

Me,

We are truly "clothed" in Christ's righteousness at salvation spiritually, but the robes seem to be raiment that is given after we leave this life by death.

See:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And "white robes" were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Note: these martyrs were saved, but the robes were given them in the heavenlies after death. This also seems to be an early group of martyrs, with more to follow...agreed?

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes ? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which "came out" of great tribulation, and have washed their robes , and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Note: if this was the raptured church, would not John know who they were, for he himself would have been part of that gathering....agreed?

Also, this great multiude came "OUT" of the GT and IMO not by rapture, but an additional group of martyrs that Rev 6:11 alluded too. And I believe the key is in the phrase...they have "washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb". They already were saved, or they could not get into the heavenlies....agreed?

You said:

But I would like to respond to the following:

Rev 19:5 And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants,

[Trinity]

Katyann

Where does it say satan will have his wrath?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It doesn't say it anywhere and neither did I. I said "

The tribulation is the time when Satan will attempt to turn the faithful from God through persecution."

The seals are the beginning of the tribulation. The last trumpet is when Christ returns. Immediately after Christ's return, the vials of wrath are poured out. It is very clear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, your Pre-wrath and You believe Satan will have his chanse to pore out wrath were does it say that? It maybe clear to you but where does it say that?

Your avioding the Questions asked...

[Guest Frankie boy]

Hi Trin,

You stated:

Revelation 6:16

They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

(((Meaning the Seals!!!)))

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But each of the seals were on the outside of the scroll. That is what a seal does. It keeps the reading of the scroll's contents hidden until someone breaks the seals. John was saddened that there was no man to break the seals and then open the scroll. Each seal had it's own short message on it. As they are broken an read, we see man's wrath being poured out by war, famine and pestilence and martyrdom. God is not responsible for these, the AC is. It is he who makes war with the saints.

Now if the seals are God's wrath, then is He responsible for the martyrs of the fifth seal? I think not.

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Note: Jesus looses the seals but is not responsible for what happens during them.

Then.....at the sixth seal:

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come;(or about to begin) and who shall be able to stand?

Note: His Wrath is forseen but has not happened yet...Who "Shall" be able to stand?

Ch 7 is an interlude and then John returns to the last or seventh seal to be broken in Ch 8......

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Note: this is the first of God's wrath actually happening up to this point.

I believe at the breaking of the seventh seal, the scroll can now be unrolled and contains the seven trumpets and at the last trumpet, the bowls are about to be poured out. The things that happen during the trumpets and the bowls cannot be caused by man as in the seven seals.

Hope this helps,

Frankie boy

[Guest]

I agree that the GT maybe less than the time frame of the second half of the week. It begins somewhere in the midst and Rev 13 says the AC will have authority over the saints for 42 mo or 1260 days or times, time and 1/2 a time. These all seem to be during the second portion of the week. We seem to get this idea of the midst from Dan 9. So the question arises....Is the A of D of Mat 24:15 the exact middle or midst of the week?

I see no reason to conclude otherwise, While "midst" sounds somewhat approximate, it certainly does not rule out the exact. For the sake of those new to the topic, let's bring them up to speed.

In Matt 24, speaking of the things in the last days, Jesus tells His disciples:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

So, lets take a peak in Daniel, what is Jesus talking about? Well, this language is similar to Jesus words:

Dan 11:31-33

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

This language is also similar:

Dan 9

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now, that one has some time information in it, and is what Frankie boy is talking about, the "midst of the week" or we might say the middle of 7, which we could see as 3 1/2. These weeks, are not weeks of 7 days, the term here is referring to a 7 of years, we sometimes call this "Daniels 70th week" because this is the last week of 70 that he prophesied about.

In prophetic terms, a month is always 30 days long. So, we can come up with different ways of saying this. 3 1/2 years, or 3 1/2 X 12 = 42 months, or 42 X 30 = 1260 days. Sorry to be so basic Frankie boy, but there may be some new to this, and it would be nice if they could follow this.

Let's toss in the other verses with this time frame:

Rev 11

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months . 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 13:4-8

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months . 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 12:5-6

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

We can see some nice fits here! We already note the 3 1/2 year tie ins, let's look at some others:

matt 24 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place AND 2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

matt 24 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains AND Rev 12 And the woman fled into the wilderness,

There are others, I just thought I'd let the new ones see how these things are found and how well God's word fits together, how consistent it is.

Frankie, I had a longer clearer version all typed out, but lost it when I attempted to post it, so all of this is a start over, and much more rambling, sorry about that, I am tired, lol, so let's get back to your question:

The 42 mo have to fit somewhere and then Jesus said He would shorten those days for the elects sake. But does the shortening of the days take away from the 42 mo. I don't think so, but I don't know exactly what He means except maybe if time went on any longer without the DOL, no flesh would survive.

I am on the same page with you there, I think what is being said is that God is shortening the Great Tribulation to limit it to 1260 days.

Now the cosmic disturbances happen "before" the DOL but "after" the trib of those days per Joel 2 I believe. And then the "gathering" (rapture) happens.

So if the DOL is synonomis with the Wrath of Rev, then it seems that all we read of the trumpets and the bowls happen in a very short period of time. So, do you think the DOL is literal day or a period of time even continuing into the Millenium?

Well, I hadn't really though about the Day of the Lord before, as to whether it was a literal day, I just always assumed it was an undefined period of time, like "In my grandfather's day". However, looking over some scriptures, I see one that may be indicating that it is a literal day, and may answer your question about it running into the millennium as well, in two different points. See if you see, what I think I see:

This is an awesome passage, full of "stuff"

Zech 14:5-9

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Now, if you are like me, you spotted verse 7 " it shall be one day ", not rock solid perhaps, but evidence, not the less. Then you might have noticed what looks to be the millennium, in verse 9, at least I think that is in view. Notice also, how well this meshes with the other verses, just before "that day" is mentioned, is another reference to fleeing into the mountains. Also, this one day, shall be known to the LORD (YHWH), sounds a bit like "of that day, not one knows, not the angels the Son, only the Father, eh?. It even has the saints coming with the LORD. God's word is cool, isn't it?

These are some of the questions that are not clear cut from the Word and all we seem to be left with is our own assumptions which I don't ever trust, at least for myself.

Got any "light" here?

Well, you will have to be the judge on that, I don't trust myself either.

[JesusisGod2]

The tribulation and the wrath are two differnt things.

The tribulation is the time when Satan will attempt to turn the faithful from God through persecution.

The Wrath of God is the time when God pours out his punishments on those who are unsaved.

The bowls of wrath begin at the 7th trumpet and I believe they are swift.

[JesusisGod2]

You said:

In both cases Paul is relating the "rapture" with the 1st ressurrection and this ties in with revelation 20, 19, and I believe 7. But I will study this further.

I agree Paul's rapture and Rev 20 are the same resurrection for there is only one for the just. But we still disagree about ch 7. Again Bro...If we start out on the wrong foot, we end up at the foul line on the wrong foot. From a prewrath stance, you have to believe that ch 7 is the raptured church. From a postrib stance, I see that group as martyrs who died during the trib.

Hey, maybe we could go bowling together.....LOL

The other point we need to remember, is at the first res of ch 20 all the saints from the Old and the New Testaments will be in that resuurection, not just the martyrs. This is the whole church. But the multitude in rev 7 are only those who came out of GT.....agreed?

This is a healthy debate. Let's keep plugging away until that DAY. I wish it was today,...my brain hurts. LOL

In Him,

Frankie boy 

Hi Frankie,

I am not so sure that we really disagree per say, I was just looking at it from a different angle. I do see what you are saying however and will look at that a little closer.

As you mentioned, this is a healthy study.

I would like to address what some refer to as satans wrath, satan is always angry but he is nothing and we who are of Christ should have no fear what he is allowed to do.

But he and his angels will be cast out of heaven:

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And he will be desperate when he realizes that he no longer has access to the throne where he can accuse the brethren. He will then attack Israel and the church. I believe this what some including myself call satans wrath, however you are right that it really isnt a correct term scripturally, just an expression of the times. I may have been the one that made that referance

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

It says that satan was "wroth" with the woman, the definition of wroth:

wroth    (r

[Trinity]

Wow its Hard to go from PostTrib to Prewrath, PostTrib to Prewrath lol

[JesusisGod2]

Wow its Hard to go from PostTrib to Prewrath, PostTrib to Prewrath lol

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest Frankie boy]

I agree that the GT maybe less than the time frame of the second half of the week. It begins somewhere in the midst and Rev 13 says the AC will have authority over the saints for 42 mo or 1260 days or times, time and 1/2 a time. These all seem to be during the second portion of the week. We seem to get this idea of the midst from Dan 9. So the question arises....Is the A of D of Mat 24:15 the exact middle or midst of the week?

Well, you will have to be the judge on that, I don't trust myself either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great post "O",

I think we are on the same page. Hope others that just read will take the Word to heart and not be afraid to jump in....The waters fine,LOL.

Someone once said...."the only stupid question is the one we don't ask"

Peace,

Frankie boy