Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[abcdef]

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

 

Revelation 19:15, KJV: "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Rev 19:11-21,

 This scripture does not say that Jesus is returning to planet earth. It says that heaven was opened and Jesus and His armies are seen there, in heaven, but it does not say that they are returning to planet earth.

Remember how the 4th nation beast of Dan. 4 and the iron legs are the same empire, Rome. Then understand that the beasts of Rev 13 (sea beast and earth beast) and 17 (scarlet) are also the same beast nation, Rome, that transitions from one form to another (10 horns).

The passage in Rev 19:11-21 is showing the transition from the sea beast to the earth beast, 3rd/4th century AD.

The sea beast and the earth beast in Rev 13, are both forms of the same Roman beast. The sea beast nation Rome is defeated when the Roman Empire makes Christianity the official religion.

The souls of the Caesars who are the false prophets and their supporters are judged already because they have rejected Jesus.

The sword who kills the souls is the gospel sword that converts millions, (the kingdom devours the statue, Dan. 2), millions that divide the Empire and consume it, until the Empire becomes "Christian".

Then the earth beast is the remnant that is mentioned in Rev 19:21. Notice that they are slain by the sword the comes out of the mouth. This is the gospel sword of the Spirit, not a literal sword.

The idea is that this is not a battle about flesh and blood, that is, this is showing people dying to the world and living in Jesus. Being baptized into His death and rising to walk in the newness of life and dead to sin.

Overcoming the Roman Empire by conversion, transition, into the Pentecost kingdom.

---

Yes Jesus is seen in heaven with the OT saints from the first resurrection, but they are not shown as returning to planet earth.

It is showing the battle between the Roman beast nation and the gospel sword of the scriptures and the letters.

The gospel sword wins by conversion, not by the literal sword, in this passage.

The earth beast nation, just an image of the Empire, is the remnant RCC (iron legs). 

---

The winepress that He treads in Rev 19:15, is shown in Rev 14:20 to be "without the city". 

The implication is that the unbelieving broken branches of Israel will receive God's anger until they are back in the city of Jerusalem, restored. (1967) 

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

 

 

[dad2]

Quote

 This scripture does not say that Jesus is returning to planet earth. It says that heaven was opened and Jesus and His armies are seen there, in heaven, but it does not say that they are returning to planet earth.

Not true. In the same chapter it said His feet would stand on the Mount of Olives!

⁴ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east

It even points out the mountain is east of Jerusalem to remove any possible doubt. That is on earth not in the sky.

 

Quote

The sea beast and the earth beast in Rev 13, are both forms of the same Roman beast. The sea beast nation Rome is defeated when the Roman Empire makes Christianity the official religion.

More nonsense. The AntiChrist is a man as is the false prophet, that is clear in the bible. They also live in the very last years. You have run out of steam here and do not seem interested in the truth. A time waster.

[abcdef]

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

Zec 14:1, "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee."

This is the 70 AD day of the Lord against his people, Israel, for rejecting Jesus and the new covenant kingdom.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

Zec 13

² For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;

Which time is this? 70 AD?

pre-trib? mid-trib? Or at the end of the trib?

If all nations are gathered to battle against Jerusalem and the people of Israel, I thought that the Antichrist that was controlling the planet was ruling Jerusalem for the last 3 1/2 years, why would all nations be gathered against him, if he was ruling the planet?

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished

If the city is taken, then Jesus doesn't come back and save the city, if the city is taken.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

So "all nations" will have time to haul away half of the survivors into slavery and the other half of the people in the city, won't be leaving because they are killed.

One is taken, and one is left (for dead). Where? Where the eagles are gathered, Lk 17:37.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

³ Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Jesus has gone forth and fights against those nations, with the gospel sword, not a fleshly war, but a spiritual war. If you thrust your gospel sword through the heart, you will kill or convert. Kill their soul for rejecting Jesus or convert them through the death blood and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus fights a spiritual battle.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

⁴ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

Jesus did stand on the mount already. 

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Dan. 9:16, "O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: ....".

The city of Jerusalem and its people are symbolized as a mountain, God's holy mountain. (Also see Heb 12:18-24)

This division into 1/3's, two parts of the mountain, and one part of the people fleeing, is showing the 70 AD divisions that happened to the people of Israel.

1/3 captive, 1/3 dead, and 1/3 flees.

-

(Also remember the mountain that fell on the rivers and fountains in the trumpets, that poisoned the rivers of living waters)

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

⁵ And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:

If Jesus comes, why would the people be fleeing? 

You would think that they would be running towards Jesus and not away from Him.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Just as in Rev 19, where Jesus is seen in heaven with the saints but does not return to earth, this is showing the same symbolism of Jesus with the gospel sword, coming in the 33 AD ish time period, the first coming.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

⁶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

⁷ But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

Good times, bad times.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

⁸ And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem;

The living waters can only be the gift of the Holy Spirit new covenant kingdom that began in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost.

The "living waters" are not material waters.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

The living Holy Spirit waters flow from Jerusalem out to the seas of the gentile nations. Remember that the beasts in Dan. 7 and Rev 13 rise up from the seas of the gentile nations.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

⁹ And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

There is one Lord over Israel and the gentile nations now.

Not everybody accepts Him, but He is Lord over the new covenant kingdom.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

¹⁰ All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

If mountains are turned into plains it would show an easy access to Jerusalem, instead of having mountains in the way. So it may be showing that the access to the living HS waters from Jerusalem is made easier, that would be by faith and not the Law of Moses.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 3:42 PM, dad2 said:

¹¹ And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

The heavenly Jerusalem that we have now come to Heb 12:22, is dwelling in safety with God, assured by the new covenant promises that He is with us and will not leave us.

 

 

[dad2]

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

This is the 70 AD day of the Lord against his people, Israel, for rejecting Jesus and the new covenant kingdom.

 

Which time is this? 70 AD?

pre-trib? mid-trib? Or at the end of the trib?

If all nations are gathered to battle against Jerusalem and the people of Israel, I thought that the Antichrist that was controlling the planet was ruling Jerusalem for the last 3 1/2 years, why would all nations be gathered against him, if he was ruling the planet?

 

If the city is taken, then Jesus doesn't come back and save the city, if the city is taken.

 

So "all nations" will have time to haul away half of the survivors into slavery and the other half of the people in the city, won't be leaving because they are killed.

One is taken, and one is left (for dead). Where? Where the eagles are gathered, Lk 17:37.

 

Jesus has gone forth and fights against those nations, with the gospel sword, not a fleshly war, but a spiritual war. If you thrust your gospel sword through the heart, you will kill or convert. Kill their soul for rejecting Jesus or convert them through the death blood and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus fights a spiritual battle.

 

Jesus did stand on the mount already. 

 

Dan. 9:16, "O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: ....".

The city of Jerusalem and its people are symbolized as a mountain, God's holy mountain. (Also see Heb 12:18-24)

This division into 1/3's, two parts of the mountain, and one part of the people fleeing, is showing the 70 AD divisions that happened to the people of Israel.

1/3 captive, 1/3 dead, and 1/3 flees.

-

(Also remember the mountain that fell on the rivers and fountains in the trumpets, that poisoned the rivers of living waters)

 

If Jesus comes, why would the people be fleeing? 

You would think that they would be running towards Jesus and not away from Him.

 

Just as in Rev 19, where Jesus is seen in heaven with the saints but does not return to earth, this is showing the same symbolism of Jesus with the gospel sword, coming in the 33 AD ish time period, the first coming.

 

Good times, bad times.

 

The living waters can only be the gift of the Holy Spirit new covenant kingdom that began in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost.

The "living waters" are not material waters.

 

The living Holy Spirit waters flow from Jerusalem out to the seas of the gentile nations. Remember that the beasts in Dan. 7 and Rev 13 rise up from the seas of the gentile nations.

 

There is one Lord over Israel and the gentile nations now.

Not everybody accepts Him, but He is Lord over the new covenant kingdom.

 

If mountains are turned into plains it would show an easy access to Jerusalem, instead of having mountains in the way. So it may be showing that the access to the living HS waters from Jerusalem is made easier, that would be by faith and not the Law of Moses.

 

The heavenly Jerusalem that we have now come to Heb 12:22, is dwelling in safety with God, assured by the new covenant promises that He is with us and will not leave us.

 

 

Why would people flee? To get to safety. When do they do this? Just before He comes.

Zechariah 14:5

 

You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him

 

His feet shall land on the mount of Olives. That is a real place. A real mountain. Not in Heaven.

 

God gathers the nations to be judged. As the bible says in different places. God will laugh at them. They were very foolish to allow themselves to be deceived into thinking they had any chance against the Almighty. That is before He returns. He returns to slay them. Israel repents and He steps in right away. 

 

 

[abcdef]

6 hours ago, dad2 said:

Why would people flee? To get to safety. When do they do this? Just before He comes.

Zechariah 14:5

 

You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him

 

 

His feet shall land on the mount of Olives. That is a real place. A real mountain. Not in Heaven.

 

God gathers the nations to be judged. As the bible says in different places. God will laugh at them. They were very foolish to allow themselves to be deceived into thinking they had any chance against the Almighty. That is before He returns. He returns to slay them. Israel repents and He steps in right away. 

No, that is not the order of events in Zec 14.

Zechariah was written centuries before Jesus stepped on the mount. It is talking about the 33 AD coming.

Zec 14:1-2, tells that there will be a day of the Lord against Jerusalem. The people will be killed and taken captive.

Zec 14:3-5, gives the order of events.

1. Jesus sets foot on the mount. This happened in the 33 AD ish time period, which you may agree with, that Jesus did set foot on the mount already, centuries ago.

 

2 The result of His foot stepping on the mount is that Jerusalem suffers the day of the Lord vs 1-2, where the people of Israel are divided by being killed, taken as slaves, or fleeing (1/3's).

The mountain that is Jerusalem Dan. 9:16, the people of Israel, are shown as a mountain being divided and a valley is created, a valley of escape, by which people are saved both from the actual destruction of the city, they are saved by the Word of the gospel sword and by the prophecies by Jesus about the 70 AD destruction.

Jesus fights with the gospel sword Word of God, not military weapons, in this passage.

 

3 The people flee to the gentile nations. This also happened in the 70 AD ish time period. The great scattering into the "wilderness" of the gentile nations.

 

Zec 14:6-9, Shows the gift of the Holy Spirit waters Acts 2:38, of the new covenant, flowing from Jerusalem to the seas of the gentile nations.

(The 4 beasts of Dan. 7 rise up from the seas of the gentile nations)

---

Zechariah was written in 500 BC ish, centuries before the 33 AD appearance of Jesus.

So Jesus must come first, to step on the mount, which happened in 33 AD,

Then as a result of His presence, Jerusalem was destroyed because Israel rejected Jesus and the new covenant.

----

If you can see that Jesus must step on the mount first, then see that the people are running away, instead of towards Jesus and His presence, then you can understand that Jesus does not come back after the people flee, He comes before the people are divided and flee.

This truth contradicts the theory of pre-trib that Jesus "returns" and saves Jerusalem at the end of the trib period.

The city of Zec 14 is destroyed after Jesus "comes", in 33 AD.

[abcdef]

22 hours ago, dad2 said:

More nonsense. The AntiChrist is a man as is the false prophet, that is clear in the bible.

Caesar

When it talks about beasts, it is talking about nations, such as Rome.

They are referred to as "he", but the beasts are nations and the attributes describe the nations, not individuals, necessarily.

 

22 hours ago, dad2 said:

They also live in the very last years.

Paul said in Heb 1-2, that he was in the last days.

 

22 hours ago, dad2 said:

You have run out of steam here and do not seem interested in the truth. A time waster.

Back to the OP, unless you understand what is past and what is future, you will not understand what is going to happen to this present day 2021 Jerusalem.

The battle of Armageddon is about to be fought, Jerusalem will fall, then the second (last) resurrection will happen when Jesus comes for the kingdom..

This is all about to happen in front of us. We are on the edge of eternity.

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by abcdef

[dad2]

5 hours ago, abcdef said:

Caesar

When it talks about beasts, it is talking about nations, such as Rome.

They are referred to as "he", but the beasts are nations and the attributes describe the nations, not individuals, necessarily.

 

Paul said in Heb 1-2, that he was in the last days.

 

Back to the OP, unless you understand what is past and what is future, you will not understand what is going to happen to this present day 2021 Jerusalem.

The battle of Armageddon is about to be fought, Jerusalem will fall, then the second (last) resurrection will happen when Jesus comes for the kingdom..

This is all about to happen in front of us. We are on the edge of eternity.

 

The bible makes it clear the last king is a man is different places. He also has different titles. The man of sin, etc. He leads the final world government that ends with Jesus returning and Personally killing him. Caesar could not begin to fit the bill. What needs to be understood about when GOD restores Israel is that this is after they repent, and that there will be no mistaking it when it happens. 

[dad2]

6 hours ago, abcdef said:

No, that is not the order of events in Zec 14.

Zechariah was written centuries before Jesus stepped on the mount. It is talking about the 33 AD coming.

Zec 14:1-2, tells that there will be a day of the Lord against Jerusalem. The people will be killed and taken captive.

Zec 14:3-5, gives the order of events.

1. Jesus sets foot on the mount. This happened in the 33 AD ish time period, which you may agree with, that Jesus did set foot on the mount already, centuries ago.

 

2 The result of His foot stepping on the mount is that Jerusalem suffers the day of the Lord vs 1-2, where the people of Israel are divided by being killed, taken as slaves, or fleeing (1/3's).

The mountain that is Jerusalem Dan. 9:16, the people of Israel, are shown as a mountain being divided and a valley is created, a valley of escape, by which people are saved both from the actual destruction of the city, they are saved by the Word of the gospel sword and by the prophecies by Jesus about the 70 AD destruction.

Jesus fights with the gospel sword Word of God, not military weapons, in this passage.

 

3 The people flee to the gentile nations. This also happened in the 70 AD ish time period. The great scattering into the "wilderness" of the gentile nations.

 

Zec 14:6-9, Shows the gift of the Holy Spirit waters Acts 2:38, of the new covenant, flowing from Jerusalem to the seas of the gentile nations.

(The 4 beasts of Dan. 7 rise up from the seas of the gentile nations)

---

Zechariah was written in 500 BC ish, centuries before the 33 AD appearance of Jesus.

So Jesus must come first, to step on the mount, which happened in 33 AD,

Then as a result of His presence, Jerusalem was destroyed because Israel rejected Jesus and the new covenant.

----

If you can see that Jesus must step on the mount first, then see that the people are running away, instead of towards Jesus and His presence, then you can understand that Jesus does not come back after the people flee, He comes before the people are divided and flee.

This truth contradicts the theory of pre-trib that Jesus "returns" and saves Jerusalem at the end of the trib period.

The city of Zec 14 is destroyed after Jesus "comes", in 33 AD.

Zechariah 14:4

 

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

No great valley formed in 70 AD. The mountain spoken about was not split in two. Trying to spiritualize this is exactly unbelief.

 

5...and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

The Lord with all the saints did not come then either, obviously.

 

There is no history that says there was no night anymore either.

 

Zechariah 14:7

 

7 ...But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord , not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

 

Zechariah 14:8

 

And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

 

Two specific seas into which living waters would go toward. That did not happen in the sacking of Jerusalem in 70AD.

 

And now for the coup de gras.

 

 

9   And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord , and his name one.

 

Look around. The earth still has wicked nations, Jesus has not returned. When He does, in that day, He will be the ruler of all the world.

[dad2]

On 7/16/2021 at 4:57 PM, OneLight said:

1948 is when Israel became a nation, or in other words, when the fig tree bloomed.  Peace and safety, if I am assuming you meaning correctly, will not come until the 7 years covenant is signed, brought in by the antichrist.

Chapter and verse of this fig tree blooming?

[OneLight]

4 hours ago, dad2 said:

Chapter and verse of this fig tree blooming?

The fig tree blooming is another way of saying "When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near." from Matthew 24:32.