Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[dad2]

8 hours ago, OneLight said:

Now I see where we differ.  It is in the definition of "restoring".  I am talking physical, as in creating a nation again, and you are talking spiritual as in restoring His people back to Him.  I don't think we really disagree otherwise.

I think Israel will physically be restored in the land. I think God will clobber all their enemies once they repent. I believe it is then that the promises regarding Israel will be fulfilled. They have a lot to go through and many if not most of them will not make it in that time. The ones that do will all repent. All Israel will be saved. The secular nation that has gathered there today is not under the protection of God and God did not destroy all their enemies, and did not bring peace there. Yes, of course He knew they would try to go there on their own rather than wait till He brought them. The prophesies all reflect that He knows a state of Israel will exist in the end over there.

[dad2]

28 minutes ago, TCC said:

One way I think we might look upon the issue of where Israel is in the timeline of God's calendar = Ezekiel 38. 

Just in general, what it would seem to be true about Israel is that Ezekiel 36 and 37 describe an evolutionary development in the later days and would tend to blend two timeframes together for poetic cohesion of God's intent. When Old Testament saints viewed their Messiah coming they viewed Him as coming once and setting up the kingdom. They did not have the spiritual foresight to understand that there was a first and second coming. 

So applying that to how we are shown the Jewish nation in the last days we can see that they have been gathered, and had many struggles but also many successes. They also had been given recent favor of their own capital Jerusalem and Golan Heights. In addition they also claimed to be a "Religious Nation." 

Knesset makes it official: Israel is a Jewish state (jns.org)

My point is that it would seem that Israel will come back to their land as in 1948 and slowly emerge into a world super power (which they are today), and have super strong defenses, and technology hotly sought after, and riches (like natural gas and oil recently discovered)...all as they get skin and meat on those dry bones. I believe we are seeing poetically Israel having come of age as a nation again, amen. But it would appear Ezekiel's use of prophecy implies difficult times coming for Israel (Ezekiel 38-39) and the millennial kingdom thereafter (Ezekiel 40-48). I believe what Ezekiel 38 demonstrated is an Israel during (or even approaching) the tribulation period (which during they will become a nation for God again via the 144k--during the tribulation winning souls for Christ). 

THE PROBLEM OF EZEKIEL 38 

There has been a recent line up in 2017 of Russia, Iran, and Turkey. This has never been before in history. In November of 2017 theses nations formed a UN alliance. Turkey and Iran are obvious to get from the text. Russia is a bit harder. Josephus in the 1st century thought Magog was the Scythian people (who's region in those days be referred to as Kazakhstan). The Scythian people historically have been (from 800 to 200 BC) a people governing various regions in the upper Black Sea areas (known as Russia). Russia considers the Scythians their ancestors through their own museum displays and online searchable connections and affirmations. Ironically over the course of the past several years, Russia, Turkey, and Iran have been jointly meeting in Kazakhstan regarding Syria. It would appear that Ezekiel 38 is coming into form. Perhaps something to further research and pulse developments as more nations listed in Ezekiel 38 lean toward lining up with this prophecy. Blessings. 

 

 

They have been gathered but not by God yet. When He does gather them they will have repented. He will wipe out all enemies and etc.

[dad2]

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There is scriptural evidence that the meaning of the symbols is the subject, and that the symbols themselves are not the subject intended, the symbols are not literal, it's what the symbols represent that are the subject. 

 

Chapter and verse? For example, can you say there are really no seals being opened?

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You would probably agree that there is symbolism in the Bible. The fig tree and the olive tree, for example as in Matt 24:32-35, Rev 11:4. They are the people of Israel.

 

In Matt 24 the tree mainly represents the signs Jesus just spoke about. In Rev 11, it is more than obvious that the men spoken about are not walking trees! They are called olive trees by God to bring out something about these people. Possibly the fact that God is speaking and working right through them. Like the flow of the Spirit running freely. Those men do miracles and get raised from the dead. They call down fire from God to kill evil minions of Satan. No one did that in history.

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Matt 24:32-35, The time when the branches sprout is spring and summer is coming. This shows the people of Israel expecting fruit from the new covenant, day of salvation, Pentecost kingdom. But before that happens, before the fruit can grow to its ripened  abundance,  the unbelieving natural branches are broken off and Jerusalem falls in 70 AD.

That shows that believers who are alive when these thing begin to happen will see the finish also. That is not limited to Israel or Greeks or Jews.

 

 

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Jesus was speaking to just 4 apostles Mk 13:3. 

 

Mark 13:13

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. The apostles were not the ones it was directed at.

 

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Matt 24:32, Israel as a tree.

 

In the very next verse He clears that up

 

Matthew 24:33

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 

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Matt 24:33, Know that the 67-70 AD destruction is nea

r.

 

In the very next verse He clears that up also!

Matthew 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

 

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Now why would we abandon the imagery that has been established by the scriptures?

 

Why would we confuse the added dimension of the spiritual as imagery only that has no real meaning and as an excuse to divest all prophesy of reality?

 

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The first trumpet is showing the grass and the trees being burned. In the images that John is seeing in 85 AD ish time period,

In other words you do not believe that a third of the grass on earth could really be burned up one day. That is the underlying theme in your approach to prophesy. Unbelief.

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If you are seeing the literal as the only interpretation, then look a little deeper.

 

When something can be taken literally, such as the 2 men who are the 2 witnesses of the end, it is not being deep to pretend they are not 'reallly' men. In fact you miss the deep parts of how they are likened to Olive trees. Then you accuse others of being literalists!?

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Most of the symbolism of the Revelation is found in the OT also and can be understood.

Israel as the fig trees, olive trees, and the grass can be expanded. 

 

Nowhere is grass confused with a nation. Israel is represented at times by the fig tree. For example Jesus withered the fig tree. Israel was withered after rejecting Him. That does not mean the nation and people are trees literally. That is ridiculous.

 

[OneLight]

3 hours ago, dad2 said:

I think Israel will physically be restored in the land. I think God will clobber all their enemies once they repent. I believe it is then that the promises regarding Israel will be fulfilled. They have a lot to go through and many if not most of them will not make it in that time. The ones that do will all repent. All Israel will be saved. The secular nation that has gathered there today is not under the protection of God and God did not destroy all their enemies, and did not bring peace there. Yes, of course He knew they would try to go there on their own rather than wait till He brought them. The prophesies all reflect that He knows a state of Israel will exist in the end over there.

What has convinced you that God did not bring them back to their land and create Israel, the nation, in 48?  Is it because they had not yet repented and turned to Christ?

[dad2]

3 hours ago, OneLight said:

What has convinced you that God did not bring them back to their land and create Israel, the nation, in 48?  Is it because they had not yet repented and turned to Christ?

I see nothing happening now that will happen when God restores them. They need to say 'Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord' as Jesus told them first, before they see Him again. They are not really blooming like a rose. Sure the land is better than it was. Not what God was talking about. They are not at peace. They have not had God slay all their enemies. etc. 

[OneLight]

15 minutes ago, dad2 said:

I see nothing happening now that will happen when God restores them. They need to say 'Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord' as Jesus told them first, before they see Him again. They are not really blooming like a rose. Sure the land is better than it was. Not what God was talking about. They are not at peace. They have not had God slay all their enemies. etc. 

I think this is going to be another short conversation.  Here, I ask you a question about God bring Israel back into existence in 1948 after 1878 years and you continue to ignore direct questions and continue to redirect the conversation to the spiritual return to Christ.  If you don't want to discuss what I ask, just say so.

[dad2]

4 hours ago, OneLight said:

I think this is going to be another short conversation.  Here, I ask you a question about God bring Israel back into existence in 1948 after 1878 years and you continue to ignore direct questions and continue to redirect the conversation to the spiritual return to Christ.  If you don't want to discuss what I ask, just say so.

You asked if  it was because they had not repented. I said yes and mentioned other things also. There is no possible way you could claim God brought them back and restored them already.

[OneLight]

8 hours ago, dad2 said:

You asked if  it was because they had not repented. I said yes and mentioned other things also. There is no possible way you could claim God brought them back and restored them already.

I never said they were spiritually restored yet.  That is a point you keep bringing up.  I have been saying that God brought them back to their land, restoring them as a nation - a people.  That is the point I've been trying to make since my first post.

[dad2]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

I never said they were spiritually restored yet.  That is a point you keep bringing up.  I have been saying that God brought them back to their land, restoring them as a nation - a people.  That is the point I've been trying to make since my first post.

Why would we think that God brought back unregenerate unsaved rebels to the land? Chapter and verse?

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Why would we think that God brought back unregenerate unsaved rebels to the land? Chapter and verse?

Because of His plans for them.  All of scripture shows how He works in the lives of people.  His ways are not our ways, so I don't compare what I think should be done to what He does.  I see God working in the lives of some of the most vile sinners I've ever come across and He did not wait until they repented.  That is not how God works in every situation.

I gave you chapter and verse.  You choose to see His words in a different light than I do.