Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[dad2]

4 minutes ago, Josheb said:

It did happen. It had begun in the gospel era.

Matthew 23:29-39 ESV
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous,  saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’  Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.  Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.  You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?  Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town,  so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.  Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.  “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!  See, your house is left to you desolate.  For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Jesus plainly stated their house was left to them desolate. Desolation is an abomination! Do a study of what constitutes desolation and abomination in the OT. 

Matthew 24:15-22
“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),  then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.  Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,  and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.  And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!  Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.  And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."

The disciples would see the abomination of desolation and they would see it standing in the holy place. They would go through the tribulation. God cut short the days of the tribulation for their sake! 

Your interpretation denies the disciples seeing the AoD. Unless some of the apostles are alive today they can't see the AoD standing in the holy place. The temple has been destroyed. If that Matthew 24 mention of "the holy place" is a reference to the temple's holy place then there's no more holy place in which an AoD can stand. 

And there isn't a single verse in the entire Bible stating another temple will be built in the 21st century. 

 

Correct, the apostles did not see the last seven years of world history! As for another temple, one assumes there will be one. Why? Because there will be a daily sacrifice. There will be a holy place. Now if that is just a tent set up on the mountain or something, that is fine. Most people assume a temple will be rebuilt though. If there were 3 and a half years left when we (those who are alive at the time) see the Abomination of Desolation set up, how do you propose that people saw that thousands of years ago?

Edited July 31, 2021 by dad2

[AandW_Rootbeer]

13 minutes ago, dad2 said:

The desolation spoken of by Daniel did not happen. After it does happen we can count the days. 

Since Daniel was very good at leading the readers, focusing on the important issue that we now read inspired by his visions, we aren't at a loss what Daniel is conveying here.

 

In 167 B.C., a pig was sacrificed upon the Alter of God.

175 +/- years later Christ is born.

33 years later, Christ is telling us the Abomination is coming when the Temple is destroyed.

WE KNOW that Christ said Daniel would be fulfilled knowing as God, 175 years earlier, a pig was offered up, and Christ said nothing of that being the actual Abomination.  So if you believe the Antichrist is going to offer something upon the Alter of God, something uncleaned in the form of a pig was offered before Christ's First coming.   Clearly the Antichrist is not offering up some fantasy unclean beast.   That already happened before the Antichrist was ever described about 200+ years later.

 

Daniel told us it was the End of Daily Sacrifice, not some unclean offering.

[dad2]

Since Daniel was very good at leading the readers, focusing on the important issue that we now read inspired by his visions, we aren't at a loss what Daniel is conveying here.

 

In 167 B.C., a pig was sacrificed upon the Alter of God.

175 +/- years later Christ is born.

33 years later, Christ is telling us the Abomination is coming when the Temple is destroyed.

 

 

 

 

The pig was a foretaste and not the fulfilment that is clearly pinned to the last seven years also spoken of by Daniel. We know Jesus did not return yet. His return is the epitome of the end time. The abomination is something 'set up' and that 'stands'. It is not some nothing that is invisible. Where does it say the Abomination of Desolation that is set up in the holy place and stands there will only come 'after the temple is destroyed'!? Support your claim.

 

 

 

WE KNOW that Christ said Daniel would be fulfilled knowing as God, 175 years earlier, a pig was offered up, and Christ said nothing of that being the actual Abomination.

 

Hey, He said nothing of your little piggie! He did reference Daniel and Daniel told us a bit about it. The guy that defiled that temple in history was a foreshadow of the one to come. That was not the final fulfilment.

 

 

So if you believe the Antichrist is going to offer something upon the Alter of God, something uncleaned in the form of a pig was offered before Christ's First coming.

 

 

I did not say anything would be 'offered'. Daniel says it will stand.

 

 

 

Clearly the Antichrist is not offering up some fantasy unclean beast. That already happened before the Antichrist was ever described about 200+ years later.

 

 

Clearly the people who see it will recognize it. The fact you do not know is neither here nor there.

 

Daniel told us it was the End of Daily Sacrifice, not some unclean offering.

 

You made up the offering business. Not me. Daniel told us that the sacrifice would stop AND the Abomination of Desolation set up. The offering stuff you invented and tried to blame me for.

Edited July 31, 2021 by dad2

[dad2]

56 minutes ago, Josheb said:

You've just contradicted God's word. Jesus clearly stated they would see the things described and you've just gone on record stating the didn't see it. 

False. His word says the generation alive when it starts to happen would see it. You just invented that the apostles were supposed to see it. The proof is all over the bible. The end time is clearly prophesied with many events. You were even given the days from when the abomination was set up till the end of the world! Yet you tried to insert thousands of years into that few years! Then you try to make the claim the apostles would see it all! That is not sound doctrine or true or rational.

[AandW_Rootbeer]

9 He answered, “You must go now, Daniel, because these words are to be kept secret and hidden until the end comes. 10 Many people will be purified. Those who are wicked will not understand but will go on being wicked; only those who are wise will understand.

 

Excellent Verse here explaining the meaning of this Prophecy given to Daniel.   

(1) Many People will be Purified (we know both Jew and Gentile can be Saved)

(2) Those who are wicked will not understand but will go on being wicked; (We have excellent viewpoint of how the Pharisees were in the time with Christ continued to the Apostles and continued to their end in 70 A.D.)

(3) only those who are wise will understand. (Matthew 24: 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

 

So the secrets being discussed, that Daniel could not be involved with, included what we discover from the Words of Christ here in Daniel Chapter 12.   We see the plan to destroy the Temple, End Daily Sacrifice because the Lamb would present <Many People will be Purified>

 

Daniel's Prophecy goes beyond the Destruction of the Temple, it tells us the Sacrifice would be in place to end the Daily Sacrifice.  So we have direct connection to the Cross at this Moment in Chapter 12.

[AandW_Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

 

The pig was a foretaste and not the fulfilment that is clearly pinned to the last seven years also spoken of by Daniel. We know Jesus did not return yet. His return is the epitome of the end time. The abomination is something 'set up' and that 'stands'. It is not some nothing that is invisible. Where does it say the Abomination of Desolation that is set up in the holy place and stands there will only come 'after the temple is destroyed'!? Support your claim.

 

11And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed

 

Hey, He said nothing of your little piggie! He did reference Daniel and Daniel told us a bit about it. The guy that defiled that temple in history was a foreshadow of the one to come. That was not the final fulfilment.

 

Daniel speaks of Multiple Events that were fulfilled and to still come.   But the World is never going to allow Israel permission to rebuild their Temple.   So that unbiblical versions surrounding a 3rd Temple makes for excellent folklore.

 

I did not say anything would be 'offered'. Daniel says it will stand.

 

31And arms from him will stand, and they will profane the Sanctuary, the stronghold, and they will remove the daily sacrifice, and place a silent abomination.

 

 

[dad2]

11And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed 

You offered this verse in reply to this question I asked "Where does it say the Abomination of Desolation that is set up in the holy place and stands there will only come 'after the temple is destroyed'!? Support your claim.?" I see no connection. The verse says nothing about a temple. 
  
  

Daniel speaks of Multiple Events that were fulfilled and to still come.   But the World is never going to allow Israel permission to rebuild their Temple.   

Your guess is an opinion. The bible does not tell us it will be built. Most assume one will exist because there will be sacrifices going on, and something evil placed in the holy place. The main thing is that we know there is only 31/2 years left once we see those things happen. (remove the sacrifice and place abomination of desolation) 
  
  
31And arms from him will stand, and they will profane the Sanctuary, the stronghold, and they will remove the daily sacrifice, and place a silent abomination. 

Yes they will. And from the time we see that done the days can be counted. Obviously that was not 70 AD

Edited July 31, 2021 by dad2

[AandW_Rootbeer]

9 hours ago, dad2 said:

 

 

Quote

11And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed 

 

You offered this verse in reply to this question I asked "Where does it say the Abomination of Desolation that is set up in the holy place and stands there will only come 'after the temple is destroyed'!? Support your claim.?" I see no connection. The verse says nothing about a temple.

 

I offered that Verse, because there "are no" Verses, that make your specific claim.   Because the Abomination was directly placed at the spot of the Altar the Moment Daily sacrifice Ended. That is what Verse 11 declares!

 

 

Quote

Daniel speaks of Multiple Events that were fulfilled and to still come.   But the World is never going to allow Israel permission to rebuild their Temple.  

 

Your guess is an opinion. The bible does not tell us it will be built. Most assume one will exist because there will be sacrifices going on, and something evil placed in the holy place. The main thing is that we know there is only 31/2 years left once we see those things happen. (remove the sacrifice and place abomination of desolation)

 

When you use the term "Most," like <Most Assume>

Do you believe that gives more weight to the probability it is the <TRUTH>

 

What God is doing in the Future, is punishing the Earth and life upon it, that from the beginnings to now, have denied and refused Him.

His Wrath is to be brutal.

70 A.D. was about the prophecy of a City, a Temple, Daily Sacrifice Ended, Desolation, a specific Jewish People.

The Future is about Annihilation with Rev 16:1-14.

Then Armageddon!

----------------------------------------------------

 

31And arms from him will stand, and they will profane the Sanctuary, the stronghold, and they will remove the daily sacrifice, and place a silent abomination. 

Yes they will. And from the time we see that done the days can be counted. Obviously that was not 70 AD

The Sanctuary lived this Very Verse.

 

It took the profanity Roman Citizens/Soldiers <Profaned> it by entering the Temple, touching those Belongings to God Almighty, entering into Realms "Forbidden" by anyone other than a God Hand picked Chosen High Priest, and then doing what filthy acts towards it before destroying it and Ending all Daily Sacrificed designed by God Himself to keep the sins of the Jews covered.

 

The Sanctuary was the Jewish People's Stronghold.  It was their Physical Way of looking around and seeing God exist before them.

 

And the moment, like Verse 31 claims, the moment Daily Sacrifice Ends is the very Moment a Silent Abomination was <placed> into its place.

 

The Sanctuary of God suffered through all of that.

And it suffered for the Gospel of Christ, which has grown from then and is more profound than the Hebrew Sects currently existing (who are still without Temple and Daily Sacrifice).

 

 

It's already been fulfilled!

Edited July 31, 2021 by AandW_Rootbeer

[dad2]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

It most certainly does not. The Greek is conjugated in the near demonstrative. The near demonstrative conjugation prohibits any translation of "this generation" to mean anything other than the generation to whom he was speaking at that time. 

I keep pointing to what is stated. I continue reading what you think it says. What the scriptures state and what they can be made to say are two entirely different things. Do a study of the phrase "this generation" in the gospels. Doing so will show only Matthew and Luke record Jesus using the phrase and it is said a dozen times. You'll also find every single example refers to the audience to whom he is speaking.

Look it up. 

 

Matthew 11:16-19
"But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children,  and say, 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'  For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'  The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."

Matthew 12:38-42
"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, 'Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.'  But He answered and said to them, 'An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;  for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.  The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.  The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here."

Matthew 23:34-36
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,  so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.  Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." 

Matthew 24:32-35
"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;  so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.  Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."

 

It should be noted these examples reference OT prophets, thereby indicating what the prophets were saying was happening in Jesus' day. Matthew 24:34 observably does NOT say "the generation alive when 'it' starts to happen". It does not say "That generation." It states "This generation," Jesus could have said, "That generation..." and Matthew could have recorded him saying "That generation...." but neither did so. Take a look at how your version re-writes the scriptures. 

 

Matthew 24:1-44 
"Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when his disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to him.  And he said to them, 'Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.' As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?' And Jesus answered and said to them, 'See to it that no one misleads those people to whom these things will happen. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.  They will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that they are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.  But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.  Then they will deliver them to tribulation, and will kill them, and they will be hated by all nations because of My name.  At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.  Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.  Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.  But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.  Therefore when they see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),  then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.  Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.  Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!  But pray that their flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.  For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."  

"Then if anyone says to them, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There he is,' do not believe him.  For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.  Behold, I have told them in advance.  So if they say to them, 'Behold, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.  For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.  Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.  But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fell from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, they know that summer is near;  so, they too, when they see all these things, [they should] recognize that he is near, right at the door.  Truly I say to them, that generation will not pass away until all these things take place.  Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.  But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.  For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.  For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,  and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.  Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.  Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.  Therefore [they should] be on the alert, for they do not know which day their Lord is coming.  But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.  For this reason they also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when they do not think he will." 

 

That is what your reading of the passage would say. That reading is substantively different than what is actually stated in the passage. Not only is that NOT what it actually states, but after completely ignoring what is actually stated and telling everyone what it says (when it clearly does not say such things) others are told they don't read scripture correctly and lack understanding of God's word and need the Spirit. What you are fundamentally saying is the gospel writer did not actually write what he meant to say! 

The questions that should be asked is why do otherwise devoted teachers teach the egregious mangling of God's word and why they are thought to be good teachers. 

 

 

@dad2, I used to be Dispensationalist. Many of us here talking with you in these boards are former dispies. I was teaching one evening and after the class a brother in Christ asked me out to lunch. At that luncheon I was informed the purpose of the lunch was to inform of some errors I'd been making and he walked me through the scriptures pointing to what they actually state and how the scriptures themselves use certain images. As it increasingly dawned on me that a lot of what I believed was wrong I became angry and I acted out right then and there in the middle of the restaurant. Blessedly, he was faithful and calmly encouraged me to continue examining the scriptures for what they actually state before adding any "interpretations" to what is stated. 

And I did. 

I went home and for weeks I poured over the scriptures he'd surveyed and I discovered much of what I had been taught is just wrong. That led me to studying eschatology. I learned there are several views and the one I formerly believed - the one to which you currently subscribe - was created in the early 1800s and was never previously a view held by the Church. So it should be understood that I mean no ill will (even when snotty things about my posts are posted) and my hope is an examination of what is actually stated and not what others say the scriptures say when they ignore or neglect what is actually stated will begin. Matthew 24:34 does NOT state "the generation alive when it starts to happen would see it," and there is no basis in the text for making it say something tit does not state. This is now the third time you are on record claiming the scriptures say things they clearly do not state in a case where what is stated cannot be made to say something other than what is stated. 

 

The word "You" means you, not "them".
The word "near" means near, not "2000 years from now".
The phrase "this generation" means this generation and not "that generation"; not some unidentified generation more than 2000 years later. 

 

Stop making scripture say things it does not state. All I am asking is that scripture be read as written and not as others say it should be read, changing what is stated to what they believe it should be made to say. 
 

The word you means both believers hearing as well as believers. In fact Daniel could not even understand what he was given, it was strictly for the end time believers! The same is true of much other prophesy. Jesus read a passage in Isaiah and stopped mid way because the other half of the verse dealt with thousands of years in the future. This phenomena is called a mystery in the bible. That is something that was hidden and then later understood.  When people see the things Jesus told us about, it is they that the things were written for mainly! Not the people there listening that day.

Matthew 24:33

 

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Matthew 24:34

 

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

What generation? The one seeing all those things. That generation will not pass because the events will happen so fast when they start. Petr did not see all these things. Obviously. He passed away obviously. To claim it was written for him is calling God a liar.

In case any lurkers have any doubt we can look at verse 46

 

 

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing

 

The servants talked about are those who are here when He comes. If you claim it was those listening that day who saw all the signs (impossible) and would live to see the return of Christ (impossible for them) then you are wrong. If you claim the blessed would be those listening there that day, you are wrong.

 

Also, when Jesus said

  The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment..

 

That was future also! That talked about a time when folks from Jonah's age would be in agreement with the judgment that would come in the future as would the people in Solomon's day. It had nothing to do with any event in that generation who were listening to Jesus! (except that that generation also would be with the other generations in the future) Not sure why you try to put everything in the past.

[dad2]

2 hours ago, AandW_Rootbeer said:

 

 

I offered that Verse, because there "are no" Verses, that make your specific claim.   Because the Abomination was directly placed at the spot of the Altar the Moment Daily sacrifice Ended. That is what Verse 11 declares!

 

 

 

When you use the term "Most," like <Most Assume>

Do you believe that gives more weight to the probability it is the <TRUTH>

 

What God is doing in the Future, is punishing the Earth and life upon it, that from the beginnings to now, have denied and refused Him.

His Wrath is to be brutal.

70 A.D. was about the prophecy of a City, a Temple, Daily Sacrifice Ended, Desolation, a specific Jewish People.

The Future is about Annihilation with Rev 16:1-14.

Then Armageddon!

----------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

The Sanctuary lived this Very Verse.

 

It took the profanity Roman Citizens/Soldiers <Profaned> it by entering the Temple, touching those Belongings to God Almighty, entering into Realms "Forbidden" by anyone other than a God Hand picked Chosen High Priest, and then doing what filthy acts towards it before destroying it and Ending all Daily Sacrificed designed by God Himself to keep the sins of the Jews covered.

 

The Sanctuary was the Jewish People's Stronghold.  It was their Physical Way of looking around and seeing God exist before them.

 

And the moment, like Verse 31 claims, the moment Daily Sacrifice Ends is the very Moment a Silent Abomination was <placed> into its place.

 

The Sanctuary of God suffered through all of that.

And it suffered for the Gospel of Christ, which has grown from then and is more profound than the Hebrew Sects currently existing (who are still without Temple and Daily Sacrifice).

 

 

It's already been fulfilled!

False. The abomination of desolation was not set up, or there would have been a countdown set off that moment. 

Matthew 24:15

 

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

..then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22

 

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

 

Daniel 12:11

 

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days

 

In case anyone is unclear on when those days of tribulation are, here is Jesus to clear that up

 

Matthew 24:29

 

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30

 

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

-for the win