Why Resurrection?

[Your closest friendnt]

@Resurrection Priest

Elijah was gathered to his Patriarch Jacob who he was gathered to his Father Issac who was Gathered to their Patriarch Abraham.  

We keep two things in mind. 

One is what was the Inheritance of Elijah after death, in Elijah would have been let to die.

Also we are looking if at death Elijah would have been set apart from the rest of the world  

We are going to do that by establishing the Inheritance after death of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the forefathers of Elijah.

Or in other words the Inheritance of the children of the Sina Covenant of the Law and the Circumcision.

In Genesis God told Abraham at the time he made a Covenant with him on an oath to himself besides a lot of other things in Ch. 15, 16.

The Lord address the question about Abraham's (that time his name was still Abram), Inheritance after death.

Just earlier he told Abraham about his earthly Inheritance and at a later time at the time the Lord made an oath to himself, the Lord address Abraham about his Inheritance after death. 

Genesis 15:15

 15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age.

[Your closest friendnt]

@Resurrection Priest

At death Elijah would have been gathered to his Father Abraham following Isaac, Jacob and the descendants of Jacob and all his house. 

Hebrews wrote something that applies to the New world.

To the world where Jesus Christ rein, to the world of the New Covenant where the old divisions and walls are taken down.

We must make the distinction that Hebrews 11:5 applies to the New Testament where Jesus Christ is the Judge of all.

Where the Heavenly Inheritance has been revealed to the world and where the children of God in Jesus Christ inherit. 

The children of Jesus Christ have Heaven as their Inheritance and Jesus Christ as their Lord and Judge of all things and all people. 

Elijah's Lord was the Lord God who gave Moses the Law and enter with the Israelites in the Covenant of Sina. 

The Lord God in force the Covenant of Sina and punished and bless them accordingly. 

The people of the Sina Covenant were not born from above. 

Hebrews wrote 11:5, for the rein of the New Covenant. 

In the new Covenant everyone has to be judged whether they have denied or believe in Jesus Christ at the time of their death. 

No one before. Elijah did not have a Heavenly Inheritance upon death, he was not in the Life and the Inheritance of Jesus Christ and he was not under the Atonement of his blood. 

His Inheritance at death was with his Father Abraham, Jesus Christ was not his Father, that would be impossible. 

Elijah upon death would have to go to the Father Abraham.

God had to take Elijah before he died so he can take him with him in Heaven that was the only way.  

God took Elijah from his Father Abraham. 

Abraham would have been wondering who took one of his children from him.

When he learn that God took him before he died, that was something God did not do for him because he made Abraham the Patriarch of his people and he made him the Father of the Israelites to them he gave them to be Gathered to Abraham at death.

The same thing God said to King David that you will die at an old age and that he will go to his Father Abraham.  

In Exodus 3:6 we learn from God himself that the children of Abraham are gather to him and that they are in a place  separated from the rest of the world.  

They descended to the earth at death but are set apart from the rest of the world and that they were alive to God because of righteousness and the God of the death did not rain over them and actually he was off limits to the place where Abraham was and not only him but also the Devil. They were the children of God, the children without the Spirit of God.

Their Spirit did not Cry ABBA Father their Father was Abraham and they were in his Inheritance. 

Hebrews 11:5 sets the tone that your comments in the following paragraph cannot happened because is mandatory that everyone must appear before Jesus Christ upon death and bow down to be wellcome or to be judged informing them that  because when they denied Jesus Christ at the same time they have denied Heaven because Heaven is the Inheritance of Jesus Christ and it is only for his children. 

Thank you for your patience. 

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Well since the catching up hasn't yet occurred but scores of centuries of people dying before they get to heaven has happened Enoch and Elijah are the exception to the rule. 

They are the exception for Enoch in his time before the flood.

And Elijah was the exception for those who were under the Law. 

 

[Your closest friendnt]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

That is probably true but the point being made is the parable in which Jesus spoke of a chasm between the dead and the living is probably a fictitious parable given the many examples in scripture of the dead being seen by and conversing with the living. Either the parable is fiction or all those other accounts are fiction. It cannot be had both ways. In addition to that point, if Elijah was in a resurrected body when he met with Jesus at the transfiguration then this idea of a holding period is also incorrect, and it serves as an indication time is irrelevant on the other side of the grave and to be absent the body is to be with the Lord. 

Sorry I missed the issue in your post, I remember it later and I am back to address the issue in your post about the parable. 

Jesus did not say that for us for the born again. 

He did not say that to his disciples after his resurrection as instructions to us.

He said that to the Jesus to show them that before the Cross God had separated Abraham from the rest of the world after death. 

But not all of his children will find them selves in his Bossom after their death. 

And he also highlighted the love of God for the unfortunate and that he cares for them and that he values everyone and that they also are part of his Kingdom like the pour Lasarus who did not have much to offer as gifts to him as there was the customs at that time.  Everyone is valuable to Jesus Christ.  

He was talking to the children of Abraham who were under the Law while the Law was still in effect. 

He described what was in place at that time and he did not go any further to the grace time. To the time post the Cross and resurrection and his ascention. We have Stephen who he showed Jesus in his glory. At the time of his death Stephen did not see Abraham waiting for him or anything else.  Stephen showed Jesus Christ in Heaven and he knew what lays ahead of him and he knew where he was going. 

That time Jesus had not died yet and the Heavenly Father had not given to him the Heaven as his Inheritance and not only for him but also for anyone who believes in him.

Jesus Christ had told them that God has appointed him to be the Judge of all and this parable it does not describe the post resurrection era where Jesus rein as the Judge of all and every knee bows before him.

With this parable Jesus Christ shows what was ahead for the Jews who were in Abraham and with Stephen he shows what is ahead and waiting for those who are in him .it is to be with him in his Heavenly Glory imediatly upon the time of their death.

To go some other place at that time we will be view as trespassers and they will kick us out.

We are not people without a country and without an Inheritance and without a Lord and God who cared for us all our lives and at that moment the most important moment to be wellcome by him, instead he will not extent his hand to us and makes feel that he does or never loved us.

He will not turned his back to us. He did not died for that.

This is not love to die for.

Jesus also said another story about the banquet of the bride groom and when they found someone not dress for the occasion he asked the stewards to throw him out as a trespasser. 

Let us then continue in the path of his calling  and minister to the needs of his children,  for he is delighted when we help them and he gives us his fellowship and he is building us to be valuable ministers to his children and their needs. He will supply and provide for our needs according to his richness in his glory for this is what we want to be valuable assets to him helping one another glorifying his name.  For he has call us to be his good stewards and we want to be invited in the banquet of the good and the willing to be call worthy stewards. For we are not hear only for ourselves, but we are willing to pour out our selves to help others.

And this is what we do, we give some of our time helping others, it is not only about our selves. And the Lord provides and equips and he will continue to equip and provide. Being good stewards he will give us more and more talents and he will continue to equip. 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Resurrection Priest]

Let me address the view (hope I get it right) that Hebrews (Abraham and descendants) go to a different place at death, than those not descended from Abraham.  I won't quote the long post on that subject.  

Genesis 49:29 [Jacob speaking]  “I am to be gathered to my people: bury me with my fathers in the cave . . .” 
    
2 Kings 22:20 [Spoken by the LORD, through the Prophetess Huldah, to King Josiah] “. . . I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace;”

 The expression “gathered to your fathers” made reference to ancient Middle Eastern burial practice.  The body was laid in a family burial cave.  After the flesh was consumed away, the bones were “gathered” and placed together with the bones of “the fathers” in the same tomb.  In the time of Jesus, bones were “gathered” in special boxes called “ossuaries,” carved from sandstone.  All the boxes were kept in the same family tomb.  

The burial practice of "gathering" together in death, came into the language. 

When someone said that he was about to be "gathered," he was saying that he was about to die.  
 

[Resurrection Priest]

On 7/28/2021 at 5:43 PM, Josheb said:

That is probably true but the point being made is the parable in which Jesus spoke of a chasm between the dead and the living is probably a fictitious parable given the many examples in scripture of the dead being seen by and conversing with the living. Either the parable is fiction or all those other accounts are fiction. It cannot be had both ways. In addition to that point, if Elijah was in a resurrected body when he met with Jesus at the transfiguration then this idea of a holding period is also incorrect, and it serves as an indication time is irrelevant on the other side of the grave and to be absent the body is to be with the Lord. 

Would you list those examples in the Scriptures, of the dead being seen by and conversing with the living?  

I'm not sure that "time" - as we know it - is "irrelevant" in the Heavenly realm.  

I do believe it is experienced differently.  

Peter said,  "with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2Pe 3:8 NKJ)

In the next passage, the 24 Elders (in Heaven) say [to the LORD] that "the time has come" (1) to judge the dead and (2) to reward Your servants and (3) to destroy those who destroy the earth.   All these things happen at the Glorious Return.  

(1) The wicked dead are raised to be judged and condemned.

(2) The righteous dead are raised to their reward (eternal life)

(3) The earth is consumed in fire, which destroys those who destroy the earth.

This is when the 7th [last] Trumpet sounds (v.17).   

Revelation 11:18 The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged, and the time has come to give to your servants, the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints and to those who revere your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth." (Rev 11:18 NET)

But WHY has "the time" come?  

I believe it is because Christ has been given the dominion.  He is "given" the dominion when it is taken from Satan (and his Beast/Little Horn), BY the "court" of Heaven.  That event is described in the prophecy to Daniel (7:9-14, 22, 26-27). 

Until that "court" sits, the events of Revelation 11:15-18 can't happen.   

It is a timed event.  It happens at a point in time.  Whether that is earth time, or Heavens time, - are the two not tied together?  

[Resurrection Priest]

Saul and the Witch and (supposedly) Samuel

1 Samuel Chapter 28.

        First:  God had commanded, “Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them to be defiled by them” (Lev. 19:31). “A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death” (Deut. 18:9-12). “There shall not be found among you one who conjures up spells or a medium, or a spiritist or one who calls up the dead” (1 Sam. 28:7).  A man or a woman who claimed to communicate with the dead, was to be stoned to death (Leviticus 20:27).  

The above verses tell us how very serious a thing it is - to made contact with the dead.  God absolutely forbade this practice.  Why?  Because the one who thinks that he has made contact with a dead person, is actually communicating with Satan or with one of his evil angels. The Harry Potter series was very popular.  Godly parents must understand that these stories of spells and wizards are preparing a generation for deception.
    
Second:  God had departed from Saul and would not communicate with him through any living prophet, or even via the High Priest of the Tabernacle.  Why would He then allow a “visitation” by Samuel, facilitated by a witch? (1 Sam. 28:6,15).

Third:  Samuel was supposedly “brought up”- “out of the earth” during the seance, and was described by the witch as an “old man.”  Saul didn't even see Samuel.  Can any witch cause a saint of God to appear at her bidding?  And is this how the saints look - old? 
    
Fourth:  God punished Saul with death, for his action in “asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it” (1 Chr. 10:13,14).

 The “familiar spirit”and apparition, was most likely Satan - who will certainly use deceptions of this sort in the last days!
 

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Let me address the view (hope I get it right) that Hebrews (Abraham and descendants) go to a different place at death, than those not descended from Abraham.  I won't quote the long post on that subject.  

Genesis 49:29 [Jacob speaking]  “I am to be gathered to my people: bury me with my fathers in the cave . . .” 
    
2 Kings 22:20 [Spoken by the LORD, through the Prophetess Huldah, to King Josiah] “. . . I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace;”

 The expression “gathered to your fathers” made reference to ancient Middle Eastern burial practice.  The body was laid in a family burial cave.  After the flesh was consumed away, the bones were “gathered” and placed together with the bones of “the fathers” in the same tomb.  In the time of Jesus, bones were “gathered” in special boxes called “ossuaries,” carved from sandstone.  All the boxes were kept in the same family tomb.  

The burial practice of "gathering" together in death, came into the language. 

When someone said that he was about to be "gathered," he was saying that he was about to die.  
 

There is a need for clarification. It is about Abraham and not about the Hebrews.

God distinguish Abraham from the rest of the Hebrews. 

How God distinguish Abraham from the rest of the Hebrews and the rest of the world? 

How? In many and different ways.

It was Abraham he called out of his Kin and the rest of the Hebrews.

To Abraham God made all the promises to give Canaan to him and to his descendants and to him he made the promise that he will be his God and the God of his descendants and later he enter with him in a Covenant.

The Covenant of Circumcision and God distinguish between Issac and the rest of his descendants and then he distinguish Jacob from is tween brother Esau.

And in Jacob whom he call Israel a sign that by changing his name he was starting something new.

In Jacob God included all his children and all his household. 

God in Genesis 15: God gave Abraham righteousness by degree and he made him the Patriarch of his people.

Not all his descendants but only Isaac after him and Jacob and all his household. 

In Genesis 15:16 God informed Abraham when he told him that his Inheritance after death is not Heaven and that he will still be his God after he died but he will have to descent at death they way his descents descend. 

To descend, and to go where? 

To ascent is to go to Heaven but to descend is to go where? 

In the next post.

[Resurrection Priest]

DEAD PERSON CONVERSING WITH THE LIVING??

1.  Story of the rich man and Lazarus was a parable.  Not literal.  

2.  King Saul and the Witch  -  Saul didn't even see Samuel.  The witch described him, and quoted him (or channeled him).  The apparition was most likely Satan.

3.  Jesus talking with Moses and Elijah, who appeared with Him.  They were ALIVE.  It was against the LORD's command to talk with "the dead."  If Elijah and Moses were not ALIVE, then Jesus broke God's Law.  He could not then, have been the perfect Sacrifice. 

4.  Many Saints - were raised by Christ, immediately after He was raised by His Father (Matthew 27:51-52).   They were raised with bodies.  They went into the City of Jerusalem and appeared to many. 

Again - IF these people were dead, then the people of Jerusalem who interacted with them, violated God's Law.  I don't believe God would set His people up to break the Law.  Those risen saints were ALIVE when they went into the City.  I believe they were ALIVE when they ascended with Christ into Heaven.  I believe those risen saints are now serving as the 24 Elders before the Father's throne.

5.  Christ Himself was DEAD.  Then He was raised from death.  Thomas thought he was seeing "a spirit."  Christ had to assure him, "A spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have"  (Luke 24:39).  

6.  The only other one I can think of - that is sited as an example of "the dead" interacting somehow with living persons, or other dead persons  - is this one.

1 Peter 3:18-20  “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.”

Folks say that Christ - while He was dead, with body laying in the tomb - went and preached to "spirits in prison."  Some say the "spirits" are those of the dead.  Some say they are demons, as if Christ was gloating to them about His victorious death without sin.  

My view, is that Peter is making the point that the same Spirit did both - 1. raise Christ, and 2. preach through Christ, back in Noah’s day. 

Peter wrote, “the spirit of Christ who was in them” spoke through the Old Testament prophets (1Peter 1:11).   Christ preached through Noah, pleading with the people, begging them to get on board the ark. 

The "spirit" that was IN Christ was that of His Father.  Jesus said, "The Father who dwells IN ME does the works" (John 14:10).   It has been the same since the beginning.  The Father has always dwelt IN His Son.  Jesus said (to His Father) "You Father are in me, and I in you" (John 17:21).  

The word “Hell” is NOT in the passage. Peter called the people of Noah’s day “spirits in prison,” because their minds and hearts were “in bondage” to sin and Satan. (Compare Ps. 142:7;  Isa. 42:6,7;  Isa. 61:1;  Lk 4:18.)    If we are “set free” by the truth of Christ risen, then were we not once "prisoners" - slaves to sin and Satan? (See Jn 8:32, Jn 8:36, Rom 6:8, Rom 6:22, Rom 8:2, Gal 5:1.)   Satan is the ruler of this world, therefore all who are without Christ, are in bondage to Satan.

 

Can you site other examples of DEAD PEOPLE talking with the living?
 

 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

I was asking for examples from the Scriptures.