Purpose Driven Church or Presence Driven Church?

[JewishHeart]

The 90's and early 2,000's was a time in which the Holy Spirit swept His church with the glory of G-d, from places like Toronto, Brownsville, Redding, Sunderland, Brazil, Argentina, Mozambique, Smithton, Ruth Heflin, Rodney Howard-Browne, Kansas City, and Mahesh Chavda. People were beginning to hunger and thirst for the presence and glory of G-d once again. People quit relying on the arm of the flesh, and threw themselves into the arm of the Spirit. People were exploring the great depths of miracles, healings, and signs and wonders. It wasn't like the moves before in that G-d was not using superstars anymore, but "little ole me's" as Randy Clark put it. Ther were the excesses and some displays of flesh, but for the most part it was the simple glory of G-d. I remember soaking in the glory for hours and then going out to win a lost generation with the power of G-d. Now the people in this movement has fallen through the cracks in one of two directions and it just grieves me.

1.) The hyper apostle/prophetic movement- the Elijah List direction ( I am very pro-apostles and prophets for today, but what is being spoken of here is just plain exageration and prophetic nonsense). It went from presence to titles and prophecies the simple people can't reach. It went from making the presence of G-d simple to having to understand the "paradigm shift" of the apostolic move in order to receive that "breaker anointing." This grieves me! What ever happened to the simple presence of G-d? To the "Jesus Loves You" father-heart emphasis? To holiness? To the glory?

2.) Seeker Sensetive/Church Growth/Purpose Driven Church - I have seen many churches once again falling into this trap of the enemy. What was once spelled out as a move of the Spirit from Toronto that was widespread in almost every Vineyard church throughout the nineties, Vineyard now has embraced the seeker model that it has always been known for- but this time without the moving of the Holy Spirit, fueled by the "Purpose Driven Church." Church growth has become the motto. Why not? If Willow Creek, Saddleback, and Lakewood are the biggest churches in America; their successes must be of G-d! Numbers become more than substance. Leadership seminars have replaced soaking seminars. Growth statistics of today has replaced the power of yesterday. The arm of flesh is more trustworthy now than the power of the Spirit. "Cultural Sensetivity" is highrised above "Spirit sensetivity." Drama has replaced pure discipleship and good teaching. Cultural Relevance is a greater tool than power evangelism. As the Apostle Paul stated, " I have not come with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, but by the eloquence of men and cultural relevance; that your faith may not be based on the Spirit's power, but on the eloquence of men and cultural relevance." The Ten Commandments have been replaced by the Ten Keys to Grow a Church. The Vineyard is not the only one diving into this cesspool of success. The Assemblies of G-d has dived head over heals. Many AG churches do not even speak in tongues or have healings any more in fear that it might drive away a seeker. Long church services in which the glory of G-d fell and nobody wanted to leave has been replaced with pop psycho-sermons about " Your Best Life Now." The face radiating with the glory of G-d has now been replaced with the face radiating with a smile... it makes a better world.

The worst part, many of the churches embracing the Seeker Driven Life for Your Best Life Now.... are churches that were once enamored by the glory of the L-rd. Can you imagine John Olsteen, a pioneer in the Faith movement, and one who stood for the work of the Spirit despite persecution... has now been replaced by his son who preaches wishy-washy messages. The church that once knew the glories now knows good stories.

Why?

THE VEIL! 2 Corinthians 3 talks about Moses putting a veil over his face when the glory faded, but we are with unveiled faces constantly reflecting the glory of the L-rd. We should not be like Moses who put that veil over his face. In many of these churches the glory has faded, but instead of praying and asking and waiting for the glory once again... they have nodded their heads in favor to the veil. The veil looks pretty, it allows me to go on, nobody knows the glory has faded, and I keep all my followers. Let this warn us, when the glory has faded from our lives, and the anointing has left us... let us not go on in the flesh for fleshly success results (seeker sensetive mega-churches). Let us hope in the L-rd and he will exchange our power once again, from our power to His power. Let us not go by might, and not by our own power, but by the Spirit of the L-rd! As that old hymn says,

"The arm of flesh will fail you... you dare not trust your own."

[Yahsway]

Very enlightening post and well put. I whole heartedly agree with you.

[apothanein kerdos]

Thank God it went the way of other gnostic movements. Good riddance and I hope it never springs forth again. Of course, the movement split (as you pointed out), and half of it turned to hedonism and corporate Christianity.

Christianity in America is like an old beat up car...no matter how much you try to get it to work it just continues to break down.

[Homeward]

The subject of this thread reminds me of Amos 8:11,12

(11) Behold, the days are coming, "says the Lord GOD," That I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine of bread, Nor a thirst for water,

But of hearing the words of the LORD.

(12) They shall wander from sea to sea, And from north to east; They shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the LORD,

But shall not find it.

[JewishHeart]

SuperJew,

The Presence and glory of G-d is not gnosticism! It is the inheritance of the saints.

[apothanein kerdos]

SuperJew,

The Presence and glory of G-d is not gnosticism! It is the inheritance of the saints.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No the movement you are talking about, if it is the same one I am thinking about, was utterly gnostic and this is why many Christians chose not to participate in it and to leave it. It wasn't the moving of God at all but instead people trying to elevate their spiritual side by forgoing the physical needs of people. Tell me, how many homeless shelters were produced via this movement? How many families in need, real physical need, were helped? What were the works of God produced by this movment?

It was nothing more than hedonism and gnosticism joining hands.

[JewishHeart]

SuperJew,

Hahaha, you are highly mistaken... in Brownsville 100,000's were saved. Prostitutes, drug addicts, you name it! The baptisms each night were moving! I saw the change in people's lives. Now there are over 70 missionaries on the field that were saved at the Brownsville Revival and many more former missionaries touched to go on.

In Toronto many were healed. From Toronto Heidi Baker was touched which brought food, healing, and salvation to thousands in Mozambique. John Wimber taught himself the cause of the poor. Blood 'N Fire is another ministry in downtown Atlanta that was touched by the renewal and is ministering to the poor. Not to mention Provision International ( The Foundry and Fortress Felllowship).... a ministry of Rick Joyner's MorningStar.... reaches the ghettos of Nashville. Since they have been there has not been a shooting and it even made the news.

Jackie Pullinger in Hong Kong who lives among the poor also was touched by renewal.

MANY MANY MORE... Can't get into it all now.

[Guest stevej]

I also have been concerned with the emphasis on growth over substance in our churches since the early 70's. The 70's were overrun with the Falwells and Hyles church manuals on how to build a church. All of these new methods are simply outgrowths and different styles of bringing in more people.

What concerned me then and concerns me now is:

1. What are the new converts receiving? Is it more psychological mumbo jumbo, or a book review or denominational literature lacking in spirit filled teaching?

2. What are these super churches and want to be super churches receiving? They trade off substance for numbers under the illusion that numbers translate to "souls" The churches are getting more members who join their little clicks and social groups with little or no spiritual growth.

3. The lack of true evangelism in these massive organizations. The continual watering down of the gospel and the gospel message has been the downfall of several of these churches.

4. Looking at the economic end of this mess is another problem. These wanna be and some super churches are failing on the economic side because there was no real plan to handle the growth. Several of these churches have filed for bankruptcy protection.

Do not misunderstand I believe in the church. I believe that every soul won to Jesus is important. I know there are smaller churches falling by the wayside dealing with the same issues. But unless we are giving new converts something solid to hold on with perhaps we should reconsider these "solutions" that are nothing more than rehashed plans that only partially work.

The Great Commission to evangelize is being carried thru. The teaching they receive after conversion is in question.

[PwrInTheBld]

JewishHeart;

Just a question....you've mentioned Toronto a couple or few times. Do you know when this occurred? When she was here?

I'm only an hour and a bit from Toronto and don't remember hearing anything about this?

Just curious

[apothanein kerdos]

JewishHeart;

Just a question....you've mentioned Toronto a couple or few times. Do you know when this occurred? When she was here?

I'm only an hour and a bit from Toronto and don't remember hearing anything about this? 

Just curious

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because it's sensationalized.

100,000 people comming to Christ in one town and nobody covers it? Makes you wonder why.

Hahaha, you are highly mistaken... in Brownsville 100,000's were saved. Prostitutes, drug addicts, you name it! The baptisms each night were moving! I saw the change in people's lives. Now there are over 70 missionaries on the field that were saved at the Brownsville Revival and many more former missionaries touched to go on.

This kind of harms your own case. Of the 100,000 people saved...only 70 went on to be missionaries? That's a .007% turnover rate. I'm not into numbers and I don't think numbers are all that important, but in issues like this I think they are. It shows an over inflation of "hundreds of thousands saved" and nothing occuring as a consequence of it. Assuming that of all the people that ever make professions in any Christian event only 20% mean it, this means you should have had at least 20,000 people going out and duplicating the work of Christ. However, 70 missionaries?

It was an over inflated, over hyped, gnostic revival. That is why it failed and didn't catch on en masse. It took the emphasis off of the physical work of Christ and put it all on the spiritual significance of Christ. That if we worked in the flesh to try and share the Gospel then were weren't sharing the Gospel but instead were sinning. I know of the movement because I paid attention to it. It was highly sensationalized and nothing more than a gnostic movement within the church.