A Common Assumption...

[Dennis1209]

Morning everyone,

I learn something new every day. Until today, I've always thought Enoch and Elijah were the only two men that were translated, and did not taste physical death?  Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: From my recent studies, it appears Enoch is the only exception of being translated. At this point I still believe Enoch is a type, a shadow, and symbolic of the church being taken from (Raptured -global) the impending judgment [Noah's flood] and coming wrath of God. Whereas Noah, being a type and shadow of being safely carried through God's wrath and global judgment [1/3 of Israel]; both symbolic of the coming Great Tribulation [yeah I know, another point of contention]. 

Over time I have compiled a list of all the kings of Israel and Judah; with the dates they reigned and everything I could find out about them. Long story short; we've been studying about Elijah in our formal lesson plan for our Sunday School lessons. A bad teaching trait of mine is, I read like an Evelyn Wood's speed reading course. I'm finished reading the lesson and discussing well before the allotted time. So I fill in that time with additional information not covered in the lesson with; more about the subject; person; place or thing, to better understand the context; history; meaning; etc.

So anyway, I stumbled upon something that didn't seem right; king's reigns, date wise and removal from earth pertaining to Elijah [key word "heaven" - the air], and started researching it in scripture. Namely: 2 Chr. 21:4-14. Again to be brief, and knowing I'm never the first one to have a question on something, I did some internet searching. I came across a number of explanations for my questions, and I was somewhat surprised how I was not reading my Bible in context, and was making false assumptions.  

If you're interested in how could Elijah write a letter to King Jehoram, well after he was taken up by a fiery chariot in a whirlwind. Did Elijah die or was he translated? The following link is a reasonable and scriptural explanation in my opinion.

https://www.versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/where-did-god-take-elijah-and-when-did-it-happen  

Let me know what you think?

[Leonardo Von]

43 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

If you're interested in how could Elijah write a letter to King Jehoram, well after he was taken up by a fiery chariot in a whirlwind.

Elijah wasn't taken up by a fiery chariot; this chariot of fire was sent to separate Elijah from Elisha.

[Dennis1209]

4 minutes ago, Leonardo Von said:

Elijah wasn't taken up by a fiery chariot; this chariot of fire was sent to separate Elijah from Elisha.

I'm well aware of that. The questions posed are: Did Elijah physically die, and where did he go?

[Selah7]

Good morning there, Dennis…

I’d say that Elijah was transliterated.  I love Spurgeon’s commentary on this:  “This was a proper departure for one whose fiery spirit and whirlwind force had made all Israel tremble. Elijah was the only mortal to be visibly carried to heaven. Remarkable faithfulness was honored by a remarkable departure.”

selah 

. . .

Greek - English Dictionary

G2288 - Death

Strong's No.:G2288

Greek:θάνατος

Transliteration:thanatos

Phonetic:than'-at-os

Word Origin:From G2348

Bible Usage:X-(idiom) deadly (be . . .) death.

Part of Speech:Noun Masculine

Strongs
Definition:

(properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively)

Thayers
Definition:

1. the death of the body 

a. that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended 

b. with the implied idea of future misery in hell 

1. the power of death 

c. since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin 

2. metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name, 

a. the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell 

3. the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell 

4. in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

Edited August 14, 2021 by Selah7

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Morning everyone,

I learn something new every day. Until today, I've always thought Enoch and Elijah were the only two men that were translated, and did not taste physical death?  Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: From my recent studies, it appears Enoch is the only exception of being translated. At this point I still believe Enoch is a type, a shadow, and symbolic of the church being taken from (Raptured -global) the impending judgment [Noah's flood] and coming wrath of God. Whereas Noah, being a type and shadow of being safely carried through God's wrath and global judgment [1/3 of Israel]; both symbolic of the coming Great Tribulation [yeah I know, another point of contention]. 

Over time I have compiled a list of all the kings of Israel and Judah; with the dates they reigned and everything I could find out about them. Long story short; we've been studying about Elijah in our formal lesson plan for our Sunday School lessons. A bad teaching trait of mine is, I read like an Evelyn Wood's speed reading course. I'm finished reading the lesson and discussing well before the allotted time. So I fill in that time with additional information not covered in the lesson with; more about the subject; person; place or thing, to better understand the context; history; meaning; etc.

So anyway, I stumbled upon something that didn't seem right; king's reigns, date wise and removal from earth pertaining to Elijah [key word "heaven" - the air], and started researching it in scripture. Namely: 2 Chr. 21:4-14. Again to be brief, and knowing I'm never the first one to have a question on something, I did some internet searching. I came across a number of explanations for my questions, and I was somewhat surprised how I was not reading my Bible in context, and was making false assumptions.  

If you're interested in how could Elijah write a letter to King Jehoram, well after he was taken up by a fiery chariot in a whirlwind. Did Elijah die or was he translated? The following link is a reasonable and scriptural explanation in my opinion.

https://www.versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/where-did-god-take-elijah-and-when-did-it-happen  

Let me know what you think?

I am not sure what this is all about. 

Did you give the context and scriptures? 

By the way I read like this:

Edited August 14, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Dennis1209]

20 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Good morning there, Dennis…

I’d say that Elijah was transliterated.  I love Spurgeon’s commentary on this:  “This was a proper departure for one whose fiery spirit and whirlwind force had made all Israel tremble. Elijah was the only mortal to be visibly carried to heaven. Remarkable faithfulness was honored by a remarkable departure.”

selah 

. . .

Greek - English Dictionary

G2288 - Death

Strong's No.:G2288

Greek:θάνατος

Transliteration:thanatos

Phonetic:than'-at-os

Word Origin:From G2348

Bible Usage:X-(idiom) deadly (be . . .) death.

Part of Speech:Noun Masculine

Strongs
Definition:

(properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively)

Thayers
Definition:

1. the death of the body 

a. that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended 

b. with the implied idea of future misery in hell 

1. the power of death 

c. since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin 

2. metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name, 

a. the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell 

3. the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell 

4. in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

Good morning Selah7,

The more I'm studying this, the more interesting it is becoming. Still with questions I'm chewing on? Let me propose a thought; that may or may not be accurate, and tell me your thoughts. I have a number of biblical commentaries, but unfortunately, Spurgeon is not among them, I'll correct that soon. 

To condense commentaries, I've selected just one, that seems to be the majority view:

This is the only notice which we have of Elijah in Chronicles. As a prophet of the northern kingdom, he engaged but slightly the attention of the historian of the southern one. The notice shows that Elijah did not confine his attention to the affairs of his own state, but strove to check the progress of idolatry in Judah. And it proves that he was alive after the death of Jehoshaphat 2Ch 21:13; a fact bearing

(1) upon the chronological order of 2Ki 2:1 (see the note), and

(2) showing that Elisha, who prophesied in the time of Jehoshaphat. 2Ki 3:11-19 commenced his public ministry before his master's translation. ~ Albert Barnes'

There is only one person in the Old Testament that is said to have been 'translated', Enoch. Hebrews 11:5 (KJV) By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. [emphasis added].

Translated:  μετατίθημι metatíthēmi, met-at-ith'-ay-mee from G3326 and G5087; to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:—carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

Could it be? This was something like Elijah's farewell limousine ride into retirement? The biblical text seems to imply, along with many commentaries; that Elijah was still physically alive on earth [in Israel] after he was transported in the fiery chariot? It seems we have a New Testament example of my thoughts:

Acts 8:39 (KJV) And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Caught away: (L. Rapture) ἁρπάζω harpazō, har-pad´-zo; from a der. of 138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Pertaining to this subject; it's also interesting to note, who [Elijah] the eunuch was reading that Philip explained to him, just before Philip was 'raptured' elsewhere on earth:

Acts 8:30 (KJV) And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias [Elijah], and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31. And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. [emphasis mine].

I'm now trying to figure out where and how I developed a lifelong belief, that Elijah was translated and did not experience physical death. These 'thoughts' of mine have other theological implications; such as who are the Two Witnesses of Revelation? I have always held that the preponderance of the evidence, leads to Moses and Elijah, and I still hold that view. 

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There is no doubt Moses died, there seems to be no biblical evidence or suggestion that Elijah was transliterated? Maybe you could point me to scripture in support of it? 

This subject also leads to other obvious questions, such as Hebrews 9:27. This verse seems to implicate the unsaved [lost], as Christians will face the Bema Seat of Christ; not for or at condemnation or judgment at the Great White Throne judgment. If this verse is inclusive of all of humanity [saved and lost]; how do we reconcile all those who were resurrected in the NT, and had to die twice?

 

 

[Selah7]

@Dennis1209

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I'm now trying to figure out where and how I developed a lifelong belief, that Elijah was translated and did not experience physical death. These 'thoughts' of mine have other theological implications; such as who are the Two Witnesses of Revelation? I have always held that the preponderance of the evidence, leads to Moses and Elijah, and I still hold that view. 

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There is no doubt Moses died, there seems to be no biblical evidence or suggestion that Elijah was transliterated? Maybe you could point me to scripture in support of it? 

Well, a good clue as to who the Two Witnesses are might be:  Who was it that showed up with Christ at the mount of transfiguration?  Well, it was Elijah and Moses, and these two had a specific calling.  Moses was the lawgiver (the Law) and Elijah was the head prophet (the Prophets).  … and we know there will be two anointed ones who will come proclaiming that law and that prophecy, which is the Word of God.

Revelation 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Like you, I have lots of questions.  …but even if our Father does not enlighten us totally whereby we can see all of the answers today or tomorrow, I’m sure He will answer in due season.  One thing is pretty clear; it seems that God likes to give certain individuals a peak into that next dimension.  Wow!  Perhaps He wants His children to know that there IS one.  Yeah, I think heaven is only a dimension away!  
 

Okay, let me do a little researching, always with the Lord’s help.  Your questions are very interesting!  Hopefully, others here can help us out.

Meditating on His Word, Selah
 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Selah7

[Dennis1209]

5 hours ago, Selah7 said:

@Dennis1209

Well, a good clue as to who the Two Witnesses are might be:  Who was it that showed up with Christ at the mount of transfiguration?  Well, it was Elijah and Moses, and these two had a specific calling.  Moses was the lawgiver (the Law) and Elijah was the head prophet (the Prophets).  … and we know there will be two anointed ones who will come proclaiming that law and that prophecy, which is the Word of God.

Revelation 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Like you, I have lots of questions.  …but even if our Father does not enlighten us totally whereby we can see all of the answers today or tomorrow, I’m sure He will answer in due season.  One thing is pretty clear; it seems that God likes to give certain individuals a peak into that next dimension.  Wow!  Perhaps He wants His children to know that there IS one.  Yeah, I think heaven is only a dimension away!  
 

Okay, let me do a little researching, always with the Lord’s help.  Your questions are very interesting!  Hopefully, others here can help us out.

Meditating on His Word, Selah
 

This is branching off like a genealogy tree LoL. Yes, I too suspect the Two Witnesses are Moses and Elijah, based on a number of things. As you stated, they were there at Jesus' Transfiguration; I would suspect they were talking about Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Which leads to another of my many questions we are not told? How did Peter, John and James know it was Moses and Elijah with Jesus?

The powers God gave each of them during their earthly ministry matches the powers of the Two Witnesses in Revelation. In addition, exactly what does it mean to be a witness, and a witness of what, partial or complete witness? Under law, two or three witnesses are required to establish something as truth and to be believed. We are not told, but who were the "two men" first at the tomb of Jesus? A simple Greek word study reveals they were not Elohim or angels, but men. What 'two men' as witnesses stating "he's not here..." would make the most sense? And qualify them to witness first hand the Gospel during the Tribulation? 

I'm not going to delve deep into this, but there's the spiritual world and our physical 3D world. I'm sure you're keenly aware of all the sudden, once top secret UFO information now being released by the government. Every major news channel has shown some of the video along with some official commentary and reports. Spending decades researching and investigating it, spending tens of millions of dollars in investigation. And what official analysis and conclusion did we get for all that time and money? Well citizen, we just don't know?

Is our government and the people they hire inept, stupid or uneducated? I think not. 

It is telling reading the official report. It's interesting to note, the two most probable phenomena are missing [dimensional - spiritual]. I suspect what hundreds of millions are witnessing is dimensional-spiritual in nature and a deception; leading up to an even bigger deception. Many geneticist's now admit, DNA could not have possibly evolved by random chance, it had to be engineered, thereby was created. Now their evolutionary hypophysis, "panspermia", advanced extra-terrestrials seeded the universe and our planet. There seems to be a pattern evolving here; not to mention the decades of soft conditioning with all the UFO/ET documentaries, super-hero's, programs, movies, cartoons, books, and now government and media reports. Is planet earth ripe and conditioned for the next step?

This is not conspiracy, to use but one example: How did Nazi Germany, in just a few short years, get 50 years ahead of the rest of the world in technology? Operation "Paperclip" went against all our laws, morals and values, Nazi war crimes were erased and they went to work for the newly formed NASA. Anyone can research what Wernher von Braun stated about "we had help." Why did no one press him further on who and what, or did they?

Ever heard of celebrities, movie stars, athletes, musicians selling their souls to the devil to get their dreams fulfilled? What about an individual nation?

If our Lord tarries much longer, I suspect we will be witnessing some things we never thought we would see in our lifetimes? Things are ramping up faster than anyone can possibly keep up with. 

Hebrews 10:25 (KJV) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Dennis1209

[Selah7]

I’m sidetracking now.

Transportation …

whirlwind - - a wind that “whirls”  

Thesaurus

whirl (verb)
1. To revolve rapidly about a center or an axis. 
2. To rotate or spin rapidly: The dancer whirled across the stage. 
3. To turn rapidly, changing direction; wheel: She whirled around to face him. 
4. To have the sensation of spinning; reel: My head is whirling with data. 
5. To move circularly and rapidly in varied, random directions: The wind whirled across the steppes.

(a circular event, of a circle, of rotation, of roundness, like a wheel. I see parrallels here with Vibration, Twisting, even Harmonic Resonance)

… and Elijah went up by a whirlwind (5592) into heaven (8064)

whirlwind = basin  (one definition) - - (a flying saucer?)

A round flat vessel that flies in the sky into another dimension?  The chariot of Israel? 

2 Kings 2:12  And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, “My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!” So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces.

In the book of Ezekiel, there were logos on the “vehicles” that were the same ensigns used in Numbers to denote the different tribes.

Eze 1:4  And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
 

Selah 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Selah7

[Selah7]

I'm ready to ride!