Is belief in the Trinity essential to one's Salvat

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

I personally think we'd all be better off to just drop the term "God" and relate to either "The Father" "The Son" or "The Spirit" if we all believe that the three exist and one must really have all three in their lives to really have any of them, the rest really doesn't make much difference in salvation and it would save a lot of division and headache's.

Hello Other One I do see what you are saying it seems however as long as you have people who are willing to Presume the judgement of God so as to say that people who do believe in Jesus as being the Son of God and the only means of salvation, that these are not Christians or they are not saved do to either their not understanding or belief in the doctrine of the Trinity is at very least unbibilical it also shows that they themselves do not comprehend undeserved kindness of God further more it presupposes that their interpitation is God's. further more when you have Trinitairians who tell non trinitairians that they believe in a different God as though there is another God it is nothing less than judging anothers stand before God which in of it's self is evident how certian trinitarians go way beyond the word of God and the Judgment of God. So as long as you have people willing do this, such like debates will be around. however it is benefical from the stand point that those whose desire it is to know all the facts or points of view in coming to a conclusion about such like issues.....

Peace to you O.O

-

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

So why would Jesus proclaim that the Father is the ONLY true God? Why He didn't consider Himself as part of that ONE TRUE GOD?

He did. John 20 [28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. [29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

If Thomas was incorrect, surely Jesus would have corrected him. Simple as that.

actually LdS first off it requires one to assume that Thomas was referring to Jesus as being the most high, scripture clearly shows that Jesus is the only begotten god as indicated at John 1. 18 however it is note worthy that he also says that no man has seen God and yet how many saw Jesus. John 17. 3 is very clear leaving no uncertianty that the Father is the only true God......

Peace to you LdS

[Guest LDStudent]

Jesus isn't God?

What is He then? How could anyone BUT God live without sin?

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

Jesus isn't God?

What is He then? How could anyone BUT God live without sin?

Hello LDS you assume from a false premise that only God could live without sin it would also presopuse that when he created men that he did not give man the abilty to remain sin less and as to who is Jesus he is the Son of God he is the only begoten God Please read over John 20. 17 Ask your self does a Man who is 100% God have a God and consider also John 17. 3 and find your answer.........

as always Peace to you LDS.

[Unico]

Jesus isn't God?

What is He then? How could anyone BUT God live without sin?

I am not sure if you really intend to ignore my question. But for now, it's okay with me.

Jesus is not God. He never claimed that.

What is He then?

He is a man.

He is our Lord.

He is our Savior.

He is our Mediator.

He is the Head of the Church (His body).

He is the Man sitting at the right hand of God.

He is the Son of God (the Father - the ONLY true God).

Now, I may rephrase my question:

Do you believe that the Father is the ONLY true God?

A simple YES or NO question, isn't it?

[Smalcald]

Well the concept of both being a man and God are beyond our comprehension.

Christ claimed both. If you have seen Me you have seen the Father He claimed, He forgave the sins of others who did nothing to Him, only God can do that, He told His disciples to both worship and pray to Him, only a God could do that. He was crucified for a very direct a simple crime, blaspheme claiming equality with God, which would indeed be blaspheme if it were not true. The Jewish leaders were not irrational people, Christ did commit this crime of blaspheme.

The question is, are we pantheists, do we have many God's? No we are not, we believe in one God, if Christ is not God, then we are indeed pantheists if we pray to or worship Christ, because what is He? A lesser God somehow, a God in training, God jr.?

No He is God, but He is also a man and He is also the Son of God. That is simply beyond our comprehension and all are supported in scripture. Thus the Trinity is confusing and I understand people who don't really get it, or can't wrap their minds around it, and I think God will not hold them accountable for some misunderstanding concerning advanced theology. But the important thing is to honestly believe that Christ is Divine, to believe that only Christ can save us, and to believe that Christ is worthy of praise and Worship. If you worship Christ you already effectively believe in the Trinity, even if you don't think that you are.

[Unico]

Well the concept of both being a man and God are beyond our comprehension.

Didn't God made everything 'plain' to know Him?

Didn't God send Jesus so He could introduce to us who the ONLY true God is?

Christ claimed both.

Did He claim He is the true God?

If you have seen Me you have seen the Father

So, do you mean that Jesus is the Father?

He claimed, He forgave the sins of others who did nothing to Him, only God can do that,

Can you cite the verse, please?

He told His disciples to both worship and pray to Him, only a God could do that.

Can you cite the verse, please?

He was crucified for a very direct a simple crime, blaspheme claiming equality with God, which would indeed be blaspheme if it were not true. The Jewish leaders were not irrational people, Christ did commit this crime of blaspheme.

The question is, are we pantheists, do we have many God's? No we are not, we believe in one God, if Christ is not God, then we are indeed pantheists if we pray to or worship Christ, because what is He? A lesser God somehow, a God in training, God jr.?

Would that mean you didn't know why God's people should worship Jesus?

Well, I worship Jesus, not because He is God Himself... We should worship no other Gods, but the true God alone.

The ONLY true God according to Jesus Himself is the Father. so why worship Jesus?

Because it is a COMMANDMENT of God: To worship Jesus is to glorify the Father.

No He is God, but He is also a man and He is also the Son of God. That is simply beyond our comprehension and all are supported in scripture.

A man-god... what a pagan concept.

Does God want it to be that way? I don't think so.

Thus the Trinity is confusing and I understand people who don't really get it, or can't wrap their minds around it, and I think God will not hold them accountable for some misunderstanding concerning advanced theology.

So, you tolerate it?

Would that mean that God would let His people be confused with His word?

Is He not the author of confusion? I'm sure He's not.

But the important thing is to honestly believe that Christ is Divine, to believe that only Christ can save us, and to believe that Christ is worthy of praise and Worship. If you worship Christ you already effectively believe in the Trinity, even if you don't think that you are.

Wrong. I worship Christ not because of the Trinity. It's certainly unscriptural and pagan in origin.

I worship Christ because that's what God wanted me to do - for the glory of God - the Father - the ONLY true God.

[apothanein kerdos]

Didn't God made everything 'plain' to know Him?

Didn't God send Jesus so He could introduce to us who the ONLY true God is?

No and no

Did He claim He is the true God?

Yes

So, do you mean that Jesus is the Father?

"Father" and "Son" are different persons within the Trinity.

Can you cite the verse, please?

Matthew 9:2-5

Can you cite the verse, please?

We are told to worship God alone in the 10 Commandments. Jesus received worship.

Well, I worship Jesus, not because He is God Himself... We should worship no other Gods, but the true God alone.

The ONLY true God according to Jesus Himself is the Father. so why worship Jesus?

Because it is a COMMANDMENT of God: To worship Jesus is to glorify the Father.

Then God violates His own commandment. Denying the deity of Jesus is to deny salvation.

A man-god... what a pagan concept.

Does God want it to be that way? I don't think so.

Actually, this is false. The idea that Jesus couldn't be God because He was a man comes from the paganistic Gnostic sect of Greek thinking. Nice try though! Don't even try to debate me on this point, you have no chance

Basically, you're a Gnostic heretic. Congrats

[EricH]

Didn't God made everything 'plain' to know Him?

Didn't God send Jesus so He could introduce to us who the ONLY true God is?

Actually, God only made the things plain that He determined in His own counsel that needed to be plain for us to respond in faith and obey Him. Other things have remained secret and unknowable by us:

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.

Deuteronomy 29:29 NASB

That is the problem with the oneness theology. It is attempting to make one of the secret things knowable. The only way it can accomplish this is by altering what God has revealed.

[other one]

These scriptures make it pretty plain to me:

QUOTE

Exod 24 10Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet (15) there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

QUOTE

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, ' AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

Looking further:

QUOTE

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life and the life was the light of men.

QUOTE

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world and the world was made through Him and the world did not know Him.

John 8:57-59

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

NASB

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.

Further:

QUOTE

Philippians 2:5+ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

QUOTE

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me;

QUOTE

John 17:20 Jesus prayed " I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their work: that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me"

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit

QUOTE

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also come the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put al His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection, to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, That God may be all in all.

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father.

1 Cor 8:5-6

5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

NASB

We have one God