Changes to the Word of God Seen in other Bible Versions

[biblelesson]

3 minutes ago, Waggles said:

What gives the right to scholars and translators is the availability of numerous more manuscripts held in many libraries (along with the Dead Sea Scrolls) that were not available to the KJV translators in the 16th century. 

The KJV is full of errors - mostly minor, but there are some wrong verses in there;

1John 5:6  This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 
7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 
8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.  [KJV]

1John 5:6  This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. 
7  And it is the Spirit that witnesseth, because the Spirit is the truth. 
8  Because the witnessing ones are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. 

and 

Deuteronomy 32:8  When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9  For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.   [KJV]

Deuteronomy 32:8  When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. 
9  But the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.  [ESV]

Am I wrong to say that ESV was released in 2001?  That's very recent.  How do we know that these modern translators did not change the bible based on their own bias?  I would not know that.  I would not take their translation over the KJV for that very reason.  They should have left the bible alone.  

 

 

[Waggles]

John 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 
8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.  [KJV]

even the Roman Catholics give a better translation of the Greek

John 3:7  Wonder not that I said to thee: You must be born again. 
8  The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit.  [DRB]

But Ivan Panin correctly gives the best translation of the Greek - what these verses truly mean for us:

John 3:7  Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born from above. 
Joh 3:8  The Spirit breatheth where he willeth, and thou hearest his voice, but knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one born of the Spirit.  [NENT]

[biblelesson]

16 minutes ago, johnthebaptist said:

I'm not talking about changing around words. The English language has evolved over the years, and the meanings of some words has changed since the original King James Version was printed in 1611. Here is an article about that: 

https://www.compellingtruth.org/KJV-words.html

 

 

So you are saying due to the archaic KJV language, other versions needed to be written to accommodate the language of today?

 

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by biblelesson

[biblelesson]

17 minutes ago, Waggles said:

John 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 
8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.  [KJV]

even the Roman Catholics give a better translation of the Greek

John 3:7  Wonder not that I said to thee: You must be born again. 
8  The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit.  [DRB]

But Ivan Panin correctly gives the best translation of the Greek - what these verses truly mean for us:

John 3:7  Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born from above. 
Joh 3:8  The Spirit breatheth where he willeth, and thou hearest his voice, but knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one born of the Spirit.  [NENT]

How to you know that the other versions are not wrong, and the KJV is the correct one?

[Waggles]

5 minutes ago, biblelesson said:

So you are saying due to the archaic KJV language, other versions needed to be written to accommodate the language of today?

Why not?

Galatians 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 
23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.  [KJV]

Galatians 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness 
23  gentleness, self control; against such there is no law.  [NENT]

Galatians 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 
23  gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.  [ESV]

Is there a problem?? 

[johnthebaptist]

10 minutes ago, biblelesson said:

So you are saying due to the archaic KJV language, other versions needed to be written to accommodate the language of today?

 

 

I don't know why other versions were written, but I'd prefer a version that didn't have archaic language, though sometimes I will check out the KJV when I have a question about a passage.

[Waggles]

5 minutes ago, biblelesson said:

How to you know that the other versions are not wrong, and the KJV is the correct one?

The Greek is available in over 5,000 manuscripts and pretty well in the original contains the same words.

The difference is the denominational and doctrinal biases or lack of by translators in choosing words in English or German or Korean to express the meaning of the original Greek. 

Why did the KJV translators use wind over spirit when the original Greek is obviously referring to the spirit and not to moving air??

Because the KJV translators [broken up into groups doing separate sections] had no doctrinal insight into the references in Acts where believers would be born from above by the power of the Holy Spirit and speak in new tongues [hear his voice]. 

[Deborah_]

8 hours ago, biblelesson said:

Think about what you are saying!  I can see if you were born back then and had access to those "more accurate texts" as you say, then I you can make this statement.  But you cannot!  You said, "the newer bible versions are....believed to be more accurate... and to think of the new versions as pre-dating the KJV."  You cannot, absolutely, as a matter of fact, make this statement. 

 

These earlier texts are available in museums. They're not figments of anyone's imagination; people have read them. If I can't make an "absolute" statement of the accuracy of one text over another, then neither can you. But most of the experts in such matters DO believe that they are more accurate - and that IS a statement of fact. 

[GandalfTheWise]

24 minutes ago, Deborah_ said:

These earlier texts are available in museums. They're not figments of anyone's imagination; people have read them. If I can't make an "absolute" statement of the accuracy of one text over another, then neither can you. But most of the experts in such matters DO believe that they are more accurate - and that IS a statement of fact. 

Due to technology and the dedication of many Christians committed to studying the Greek text of the NT, there is an ongoing effort to digitize existing manuscripts.  It means that in a few decades, we have gone from only a handful of scholars having access to these manuscripts in museums to any Christian with an internet connection having access. 

Center for Study of New Testament Manuscripts has digital access to many manuscripts, some among the oldest we currently possess.  There are other museums that have digitized NT manuscripts that they have.

Not responding to this post in particular,  but the entire thread now:

The core issue is this:  Did God once and for all specially choose a particular group of scholars in England (almost all members of one particular denomination) to translate the NT into English?  Or is this an ongoing task God has appointed to all generations of believers across all churches and denominations of all believers to deliver the Word of God in the contemporary language of their generation to all languages in the world?   As a peripheral question which few consider, if God appointed a particular denomination to be in charge of translation, does that mean the Church of England should be considered the primary English speaking church because God entrusted its members with the translation of the KJV and has not trusted or appointed any other denomination with that work since then?

There is another issue which has not been brought up in this thread but is even more important.  The reality is that these Greek manuscripts have minor differences between them and none of those manuscripts exactly match the Greek text used for the KJV.  The reality is that the Greek text used for the KJV is one of many versions of the text developed by a few scholars (the first being Erasmus) and publishers (notably Beza and Etienne) in a process that has now been going on for centuries.  This type of text created by picking and choosing between the differences in actual manuscripts is often referred to as an eclectic text.  The KJV translators used two such eclectic texts (probably the 1588 and 1598 texts from Beza) and did picking and choosing from the main published texts and alternative readings in footnotes in those eclectic texts.  Many Christians scholars and publishers have been developing eclectic texts using new manuscript discoveries since then as well as improving the science of translation over time.  Pretty much every single Greek NT that has been published in the Western world and used for translation into contemporary languages around the world is an eclectic text. Such eclectic texts usually have a lot of footnotes where the scholars and publishers explain why they decided to choose a particular reading for a particular verse and lay out other alternatives.  The vast majority of Christian scholars and denominations consider this to be an ongoing work God has given to the church.  

About a century ago now,  a Seventh Day Adventist (Benjamin Wilkinson) who had a few doctrines which depended heavily on particular words and phrases in the KJV attacked newer Greek eclectic texts and new translations into English because particular doctrines of his did not hold up when compared to new Greek eclectic texts and English translations.  A few Christians got hold of Wilkinson's ideas and a rejection of centuries of Christian scholars began.  

For those who claim the KJV is the only real Bible, they must believe that this centuries long process of Christian scholarship was not blessed by God but rather than He picked a particular point about a century into this process as the stopping point where the work was complete.  They must necessarily believe that all existing manuscripts contain errors and that we thus have NO correct existing manuscripts of the NT.  Advocates of this position completely undermine apologetics work by proclaiming to Christians (and unbelievers) that only untrustworthy corrupted manuscripts exist and that we have no existing manuscripts of the real NT.   They in essence confirm unbeliever's attacks on the NT by agreeing that existing manuscripts are full of errors.

The process of developing eclectic Greek NT texts as more and more manuscripts are found started with Erasmus and has been going on non-stop since then.  The process of translating the Greek into various languages around the world has lead to Christians scholars learning more and more about how to effectively translate words and thoughts from Greek into new languages and in contemporary language as modern languages continually change.   The question is this, did God pick a few particular scholars at one time and place to have done this once and for all or did has He given this task to countless Christian scholars across different denominations and generations to do this?  The vast majority of Christians believe God has appointed this as an ongoing work that all generations of Christians contribute to.

Here's a lengthy post I made a time ago on this topic (in one of the specialty groups on this site) trying to provide an overview of this.  https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/257347-discussion-of-bible-translations-and-versions/?do=findComment&comment=3289557