Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

I'm not for sure what you think I am trying to eviscerate and serve in pieces.  Like, with your example from Joel 1, I think what is spoken there is descriptive of the Day of the LORD that occurred in that day.  For example, I think of the book of The Lamentations of Jeremiah.  In this book alone (and there is so much more) if you will merely read and truly consider it, you will find that the fulfilling of the very prophecies that you are pointing out is lot of what Jeremiah is lamenting.

I think what is missing is just listening. I think that is the overall problem, we are deaf and fail to hear what the Lord is saying. I strive to listen and still it takes effort to really hear. And I have been practicing for a long time to just hear Him. Put myself aside, stop the thinking and hear first. 

 

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

I wish it was enough for me to encourage you to read it, for you can't read it without being saddened (with empathy for Jeremiah) over what the state of affairs was.   But, consider these various selections, which relate to your point.  If all the bold and underlining seems over much to you, on my part, I believe that every bit of it deserves to be put in bold, caps, underlined, and italicized.  From Lamentations 1:

⁴ The ways of Zion do mourn, because none come to the solemn feasts: all her gates are desolate: her priests sigh, her virgins are afflicted, and she is in bitterness.

Then from chapter 2:

⁵ The LORD was AS AN ENEMY: He hath swallowed up Israel, He hath swallowed up all her palaces: He hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.

⁶ And He hath violently taken away His tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: He hath destroyed His places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of His anger the king AND THE PRIEST.

⁷ The LORD hath cast off His altar, He hath abhorred His sanctuary, He hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast.

¹¹ Mine eyes do fail with tears, my bowels are troubled, my liver is poured upon the earth, for the destruction of the daughter of my people; because the children and the sucklings swoon in the streets of the city.

¹² They say to their mothers, Where is corn and wine? when they swooned as the wounded in the streets of the city, when their soul was poured out into their mothers' bosom.

¹⁹ Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the LORD: lift up thy hands toward Him for the life of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street.

Then from chapter 4:

⁴ The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, and no man breaketh it unto them.

⁵ They that did feed delicately are desolate in the streets: they that were brought up in scarlet embrace dunghills.

⁶ For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people IS GREATER THAN THE PUNISHMENT OF THE SIN OF SODOM, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.

⁹ They that be slain with the sword are better than they that be slain with hunger: for these pine away, stricken through for want of the fruits of the field.

¹⁰ The hands of the pitiful women HAVE SODDEN THEIR OWN CHILDREN: THEY WERE THEIR MEAT in the destruction of the daughter of my people.

¹¹ THE LORD HATH ACCOMPLISHED HIS FURY; HE HATH POURED OUT HIS FIERCE ANGER, AND HATH KINDLED A FIRE IN ZION, AND IT HATH DEVOURED THE FOUNDATIONS THEREOF.

¹² The kings of the earth, and all the inhabitants of the world, would not have believed that the adversary and the enemy should have entered into the gates of Jerusalem.

And from chapter 5:

¹⁰ Our skin was black like an oven because of the terrible famine.

¹⁷ For this our heart is faint; for these things our eyes are dim.

¹⁸ Because of the mountain of Zion, WHICH IS DESOLATE, the foxes walk upon it.

I would much rather you read the Lamentations for yourself, as these select portions do not do justice to the day of the LORD's anger that the Israelites experienced, which is what Joel's prophecy in Joel 1:1-2:11 warned of---which could have been averted, if they had only repented (Joel 2:12-17) and met the LORD's "Then" condition (Joel 2:18).

Let's say you're accurate here. Where in Lamentations, does whomever wrote it, record all the green grass burned up, the grain destroyed, bitter water and all the trees scorched, along with the impending day of destruction and the grain and drink offering cut off from the house of God?

That would have to be part of the fulfillment of the prophecy and Jeremiah should have said something about that as well and it should have been recorded in Lamentations; as that is purported to be an eyewitness account of the destruction. Those elements from Joel would need to be there for the Joel prophecy to be fulfilled. I don't see them in Lamentations. Maybe I just missed it. Doesn't prove it didn't happen in 586 BC. But, if there isn't a record of it then we can't just fill in the gaps because it furthers a doctrine.

I have no issue with the prophecies of Jeremiah nor the record of Lamentations as I know this is the Babylonian conquest as prophesied by Jeremiah, and the results as recorded in Lamentations; for all those that refused to go along willingly.

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

Not forgetting what I have shon in the course of this thread up till now--and will show---what is it exactly that you think I'm missing---according to Scripture?

Specifically, the entire body of evidence. I for one have to see all the elements of the spoken prophecy come to pass to know the particular prophecy was fulfilled as spoken. I can't leave out elements to find a fit where I'd like it land on the space time continuum, and I can't force elements into a space time event that didn't occur. 

If all the elements of the prophecy did not come the pass then the prophecy did not come to pass. Such is the case here with Joel, Jeremiah and Lamentations. Unless of course I just missed it and you can show from scripture all the pastures burned, all the grain burned, the bitter waters, at the same time as the grain and drink offering are cut off and the DOTL is near, and all in 586 BC during the Babylonian conquest.

Addendum:

I forgot you place a division between Joel 2:27 and 2:28. That being the case....

There should have been a northern army driven into the western and eastern sea, destroyed and left to rot...In 586 BC

"The northern army I will drive away from you, banishing it to a barren and desolate land, its front ranks into the Eastern Sea, and its rear guard into the Western Sea.

And its stench will rise; its foul odor will ascend." Joel 2:20

That didn't happen in 586 BC as the Babylonians won as decreed by the Most High God and took Israel captive back to Babylon. 

A northern army could have been the Assyrians in 720 BC, but then that would not fit what we know about Jeremiah and Lamentations. So, the prophecy of Joel 2:20 could not have come to pass as Babylon is an eastern army that was not destroyed, and Assyrian conquest of the Nothern kingdom of the 10 Tribes in 720 is not a match to Jeremiah in any way.

In Joel 2:20 God destroys the army which is not what happened in 586 BC. Babylon was the arm of God to punish Israel and take them captive for their rebellion. 

The glaring inconsistency is Joel prophesies God utterly destroys the Northern army, and Jeremiah prophesied about the Babylonians. And we see in 586 BC the eastern kingdom of Babylon is the army of God, is not destroyed, and instead destroys Israel and takes them captive

And we're back to the impossibility of the fulfillment of Joel 1:1 to 2:27 in the past. 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Diaste

[angels4u]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I think what is missing is just listening. I think that is the overall problem, we are deaf and fail to hear what the Lord is saying. I strive to listen and still it takes effort to really hear. And I have been practicing for a long time to just hear Him. Put myself aside, stop the thinking and hear first. 

 

Let's say you're accurate here. Where in Lamentations, does whomever wrote it, record all the green grass burned up, the grain destroyed, bitter water and all the trees scorched, along with the impending day of destruction and the grain and drink offering cut off from the house of God?

That would have to be part of the fulfillment of the prophecy and Jeremiah should have said something about that as well and it should have been recorded in Lamentations; as that is purported to be an eyewitness account of the destruction. Those elements from Joel would need to be there for the Joel prophecy to be fulfilled. I don't see them in Lamentations. Maybe I just missed it. Doesn't prove it didn't happen in 586 BC. But, if there isn't a record of it then we can't just fill in the gaps because it furthers a doctrine.

I have no issue with the prophecies of Jeremiah nor the record of Lamentations as I know this is the Babylonian conquest as prophesied by Jeremiah, and the results as recorded in Lamentations; for all those that refused to go along willingly.

Specifically, the entire body of evidence. I for one have to see all the elements of the spoken prophecy come to pass to know the particular prophecy was fulfilled as spoken. I can't leave out elements to find a fit where I'd like it land on the space time continuum, and I can't force elements into a space time event that didn't occur. 

If all the elements of the prophecy did not come the pass then the prophecy did not come to pass. Such is the case here with Joel, Jeremiah and Lamentations. Unless of course I just missed it and you can show from scripture all the pastures burned, all the grain burned, the bitter waters, at the same time as the grain and drink offering are cut off and the DOTL is near, and all in 586 BC during the Babylonian conquest.

Addendum:

I forgot you place a division between Joel 2:27 and 2:28. That being the case....

There should have been a northern army driven into the western and eastern sea, destroyed and left to rot...In 586 BC

"The northern army I will drive away from you, banishing it to a barren and desolate land, its front ranks into the Eastern Sea, and its rear guard into the Western Sea.

And its stench will rise; its foul odor will ascend." Joel 2:20

That didn't happen in 586 BC as the Babylonians won as decreed by the Most High God and took Israel captive back to Babylon. 

A northern army could have been the Assyrians in 720 BC, but then that would not fit what we know about Jeremiah and Lamentations. So, the prophecy of Joel 2:20 could not have come to pass as Babylon is an eastern army that was not destroyed, and Assyrian conquest of the Nothern kingdom of the 10 Tribes in 720 is not a match to Jeremiah in any way.

In Joel 2:20 God destroys the army which is not what happened in 586 BC. Babylon was the arm of God to punish Israel and take them captive for their rebellion. 

The glaring inconsistency is Joel prophesies God utterly destroys the Northern army, and Jeremiah prophesied about the Babylonians. And we see in 586 BC the eastern kingdom of Babylon is the army of God, is not destroyed, and instead destroys Israel and takes them captive

And we're back to the impossibility of the fulfillment of Joel 1:1 to 2:27 in the past. 

 

 

As far as I understand the book of Joel is not fulfilled but still future, you're is right in that its not fulfilled if you read all the chapters its not to difficult to understand those days didn't come yet because everything written in there didn't happen yet.

[not an echo]

On 12/1/2021 at 4:39 AM, Diaste said:

On 11/30/2021 at 10:15 PM, not an echo said:

"AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS AFTERWARD..." 

After what? A quick glance at Joel 2 doesn't establish what's before. Is it all before? 

Hello Diaste,

In the case of Joel's prophecy, what "shall come to pass afterward" is after everything else that is written before in Joel.  Expounded a little, everything from Joel 1:1-2:27 is written before 2:28 and everything from 1:1-2:11 was fulfilled by the era of the Babylonian Empire and Israel's destruction and captivity.  Important to note is that Joel 2:12-17 is a record of God's call through Joel for the Israelites to repent.  IF they had of repented, "THEN" (2:18) something else would have happened.  That something else is spoken by Joel in the remainder of verses 18 thru verse 27.  Very, very important to understand is this Diaste (and all):  What is spoken in 2:18-27 NEVER HAPPENED, as the Israelites DIDN'T REPENT.  The Israelites DID NOT MEET the "Then" condition of 2:18.  Consequently, "the northern army" (2:20), which was Nebuchadrezzar's Babylon, came upon the land and destroyed it---carrying all but a remnant to Babylon for 70 years.  Consider from Jeremiah 25...

¹ The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that was the first year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon;

² The which Jeremiah the prophet spake unto all the people of Judah, and to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying,

³ From the thirteenth year of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, even unto this day, that is the three and twentieth year, the word of the LORD hath come unto me, and I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; BUT YE HAVE NOT HEARKENED.

⁴ And the LORD hath sent unto you ALL HIS SERVANTS THE PROPHETS (which included Joel), rising early and sending them; BUT ye have NOT hearkened, NOR inclined your ear to hear.

⁵ They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever: (This is what God desired for them!)

⁶ And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke Me not to anger with the works of your hands; AND I WILL DO YOU NO HURT.

⁷ Yet ye have NOT hearkened unto Me, saith the LORD; that ye might provoke Me to anger with the works of your hands TO YOUR OWN HURT.

⁸ THEREFORE

thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have NOT heard My words,

⁹ Behold, I will send and take all the families OF THE NORTH, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, MY servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, AND WILL UTTERLY DESTROY THEM, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

¹⁰ Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.

¹¹ AND THIS WHOLE LAND SHALL BE A DESOLATION, AND AN ASTONISHMENT; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon

SEVENTY YEARS.

What do you reckon the odds would be that everything in Joel 1:1-2:11 would find support in Scripture for having been fulfilled, if it hadn't been?  I have shown much, much of that support in this thread up to now.  And I am by no means finished.  I'm just relaxing here on the path benches with everyone till we get through looking at what everyone is interested in at this place on our path.  I can tell you ahead of time, we got some wonderful scenery still ahead...

[not an echo]

On 12/3/2021 at 3:48 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/2/2021 at 10:41 PM, not an echo said:

Personally, I think what the Bible says should be enough.  Not forgetting all that I have already shown, in Isaiah 9 we find this...

¹⁹ Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.

According to the first half of this verse, it looks like that the people had already experienced the land being darkened, and in the last half of the verse they are being told that they shall be "as the fuel of the fire" and even that "no man shall spare his brother."

Consider also from Isaiah 59...

⁹ Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness.

¹⁰ We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.

Remember all the curses that Moses had told the Israelites that God would bring upon them if they did not hearken unto Him?  I brought this out in the opening post of this thread.  In Deuteronomy 28, among a lot of other things, this is written...

²⁹ And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.

This sounds just like what the people are experiencing in Isaiah's day, according to what I show Isaiah as saying above.  And remember what Daniel said, while in captivity?  In Daniel 9 we read...

¹¹ Yea, all Israel have transgressed Thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey Thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against Him.

¹² And He hath confirmed His words, which He spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

¹³ As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand Thy truth.

Even if we did not have any evidences of what had been prophesied concerning that time actually being fulfilled, for me, the fact that it was prophesied concerning that time is enough to accept that it happened in that time, whether any historian recorded it, or whether any such recordings are still extant.

I think of the darkness God caused over Egypt in Moses day.  In Exodus 10 the account reads...

²¹ And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

²² And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:

²³ They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.

Diaste, do you need some historian's record to believe this?  Also, isn't it interesting what the last part of verse 23 says concerning what the experience of "the children of Israel" was at that same time!

And, what about the darkness that happened over the land when Jesus was crucified?  In Luke 23 we read...

⁴⁴ And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

⁴⁵ And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Do any of us need an extra-Biblical historian's record to accept this?

Finally, you make the statement, "And that has to be along with an exile beyond Damascus."  Am I understanding you correctly?  Are you seriously saying that you don't see evidence of "an exile beyond Damascus"?  You're making me think some thoughts...

I don't what this has to do with anything; there's darkness over half the earth once a day. Here in Wyoming it's about 14 hours now. The point is being made that all the words of the prophet must come to pass for the prophecy to be fulfilled. If that didn't happen then the prophecy was not fulfilled and did not come to pass. 

I don't see any evidence that all the elements, conditions, behaviors and acts came to pass as spoken.

Anything to do with Egypt and Moses all came to pass. I'm not saying that darkness didn't come upon the earth in the past; either for a short time or an extended one. I need to see that everything the prophet said came to pass as spoken including everything spoken. If it didn't happen that way the prophecy isn't fulfilled.

Concerning your first paragraph, I'm certainly not thinking that the darkness spoken of in connection with the Day of the LORD could be the darkness of night when the sun goes down.   That's not what happened in Egypt or on the day of Christ's crucifixion.  Some have even surmised that such is the result of an eclipse, but I don't even go there.  God can have darkness any way He wants it!  Like that that I commented on above that happened in Egypt in the days of the exodus.  Did you catch it?  First of all, the account says in Exodus 10 that "there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days" (vs.22).  Just before this, it reads that the darkness was such that it could "be felt" (vs. 21).  But, it says after this that "all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings" (vs. 23).  I bet they (the Israelites) thought that was cool.  I bet you haven't ever seen anything like this in Wyoming.  Now, just to make doubly sure there is no misunderstanding, I am by no means saying what happened in the days of the Exodus has anything to do with the fulfilling of any of Joel's prophecy.  Just saying.

If one prophet says all the leaves of the trees are on the ground and another prophet says that all the trees have shed their fall foliage, wouldn't it be logical to gather that the leaves have fallen off the trees?  In Kentucky, we say about such statements, "It's about as broad as it is long."  I think of the times the word "desolate" is used to describe the state of the land in the day of God's judgment upon the Israelites.  That's a pretty all-encompassing adjective.  I just Goggled its definition (I used to reach for my old hard back Webster's!), which is "(of a place) deserted of people and in a state of bleak and dismal emptiness."  Look in your concordance at all the times this word is used in connection with what the state of things was in the land of Israel (and the surrounding countries) as a result of the Assyrian/Babylonian invasions.  I think of Isaiah's question to God when he said "Here am I;  send me" to the Lord's question, "Whom shall I send...?" (6:8).  To God's instruction to him, Isaiah asked,

¹¹ Then said I, Lord, how long? And He answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, AND THE LAND BE UTTERLY DESOLATE,

¹² And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

According to my math, this would mean that the land was not only going to be in a state of bleak and dismal emptiness, it was going to be in a state of UTTER bleak and dismal emptiness.

Have you read my thread to this point?

[not an echo]

On 12/3/2021 at 4:21 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/1/2021 at 2:17 PM, not an echo said:

I can understand it seeming like "an odd take" when the only concept one has of the Day of the LORD is a yet future Day of the LORD.  I am really surprised that it seems that no one in the forum family has heretofore had a concept of a Day of the LORD that happened in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C.  I surely hope that this will change, as Scripture will be seen to consistently bear this out.

Maybe because scripture does not teach such a thing. 

We will be looking at this more and more the further we continue down our path.  But for the time, have you ever been on a path that almost meets itself?  You know, as you are walking along, you look over yonder a ways and you can see the same path and somewhat where you will be at later?  What I would like to do with you (and all) at this time is kinda like that.

On 11/18/21, on page 14, I had gotten to NUMBER 18 on what I have been calling INTERNAL EVIDENCES in the book of Joel that support my interpretations that the Day of the LORD spoken of in 1:15, 2:1, and 2:11 has been fulfilled, but the Day of the LORD spoken of in 2:31 and 3:14 has not.  Evidently, everyone agrees with me on the latter, but not the former.  When I started down this path, I made this statement:  "I believe as I do because of what I am seeing both internally (within the book of Joel itself, understood according to Scriptural concepts) and externally (in other places of Scripture, understood according to context)."  Accordingly, so far, I have focused on the internals, understood according to Scriptural concepts.  What I would like to do at this time is encourage you (and all) to look at just one of the EXTERNAL EVIDENCES that I will be showing, understood according to context.  The one I would like for you to look at is the prophecy of Amos.

To understand everything in Amos correctly, you will have to understand anything you find in Amos according to the context in which it is found.  And to do this, you will have to read the entire book of Amos.  Diaste (and all), what I would like for you to do is to prayerfully read this book, being mindful of what you will find in chapter 5, part of which reads thus...

¹⁶ Therefore the LORD, the God of hosts, the LORD, saith thus; Wailing shall be in all streets; and they shall say in all the highways, Alas! alas! and they shall call the husbandman to mourning, and such as are skilful of lamentation to wailing.

¹⁷ And in all vineyards shall be wailing: for I will pass through thee, saith the LORD.

¹⁸ Woe unto you that desire THE DAY OF THE LORD! to what end is it for you? THE DAY OF THE LORD is darkness, and not light.

¹⁹ As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

²⁰ Shall not THE DAY OF THE LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

When you get finished, tell me what you make of the above five verses.  Perhaps then I'll have a little better feel concening how long I will need to spend on that part of the path when we finally get there.

I would also like to encourage you (and all) to read at least the opening post of my newest thread, The Importance of Reading the Whole Bible (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/273361-the-importance-of-reading-the-whole-bible/).

Between now and the time you get back with me concerning Amos, I will continue with some more replies in this thread, as my time permits...

[not an echo]

On 12/3/2021 at 4:30 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/1/2021 at 1:59 PM, not an echo said:

Further, I don't see what you are taking to equate the "A of D" as in truth equating the A of D.  Further, you say, "Even if one doesn't hold to THE FACT that the bitterness of the water of the 3rd trump is THE SAME as the streams of water dried up" (caps and underline mine).   I'm curious about when it became a fact that "water dried up" is the same as "bitterness of the water." 

Can't drink it. Like salt water. It's dry. Provides no moisture for the body. It's exactly the same in concept and effect, just two different descriptions of the same occurrence.

If you ever allowed for my use of the same yardstick you like to measure by, where would we be at in our discussions?

On 12/3/2021 at 4:30 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/1/2021 at 1:59 PM, not an echo said:

 

My thoughts go to the children of Israel when they came to the bitter waters of Marah (Ex. 15:23).  If the waters there had been dried up, Moses would not have been able to do following, as it reads in Exodus 15...

²⁵ And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD showed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them,

 

Not relevant to end of the age prophecy. 

I'm not really sure what you are getting at.  I was merely using this to point out that there is quite a bit of difference in waters being dried up and waters being made bitter---which there is.

On 12/3/2021 at 4:30 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/1/2021 at 1:59 PM, not an echo said:

 

As I have often said, just because some puzzle pieces have similarities, this does not mean they truly fit together.  The true test of a fit of two pieces (for example) is when they also fit all the surrounding pieces.

Yes. As the example directly above.

Again, not sure what you are getting at.  I believe you missed my point.

[not an echo]

On 12/4/2021 at 5:12 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/3/2021 at 11:54 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your opening statement and admission, I would encourage you to back up and begin at Ezekiel 29, then read through chapter 32.  This will give you a much better feel of what is being spoken concerning what was fixing to happen to Egypt.  Also, based on your admission, I would encourage you to read completely through all of the prophets and at least II Kings and II Chronicles.  I'm wondering if you have read the Bible through, and if not, if I were you, I wouldn't make another post till I had.  There's just a sense of things that you can't get otherwise.  For me, as many times as I have read the Bible through, I will never consider myself done.  I am always on a Bible journey, and have been for some 38 years now.  Whether it is cover to cover, the OT or the NT, or one of the 66 books, my interest continues to compound, as does my learning.  As many times as I have been through the Bible, before I published my website, I read it again, cover to cover, with an eagle eye look out for anything I might have missed.  And you know, I'm pretty sure I still missed something.

Ah, so if I don't meet certain criteria I'm out of the club? "Unless you have read all of the bible you shouldn't comment." Amazing.

"If I have all knowledge and have not love, I am nothing."

"What does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his own soul?"

And those poor 1st century people who didn't have the NT. Or the Jews whose canon didn't include prophets we read today. I don't find your assessment to be fair.

I believe you may have mistook my true attitude here Diaste.  I wouldn't ask you to do something that I wouldn't do myself, and I don't know of anything that I have ever done that God has honored more in my life than my taking personal responsibility for the reading of The Bible through.  I did not want to stand before Him, not having read the entirety of His Word.  My desire to interpret correctly and not add to all the falsehood that is already out there goes really deep with me.  Especially because of my uncommon (or unorthodox) understandings.  That's why I pointed out what I did about reading (and I really mean studying) the Bible through again, right before publishing my website.  Right now, I'm on another journey through the Bible and will be again after that.  In the context of you ever taking issue with what I put forth---in the face of all the Scripture I provide---I felt I was giving you the best instruction that a child of God could be given.  It's one thing to seek help and understanding on a Christian forum.  It's quite another thing to always be taking issue with Scriptural teachings---not even having read the Bible through.

Earlier I encouraged you to read my newest thread, The Importance of Reading the Whole Bible (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/273361-the-importance-of-reading-the-whole-bible/).  In my opening post, I believe you may be able to see part of the reason behind my encouraging you as I did.  It shouldn't be hard for you to gather that your post this day (12/4/21) prompted my starting of this new thread.  Hopefully it will be helpful, not only to you, but to all.

I would also like to encourage you again to look in on my thread, An Importance of Faithfulness to a Local Church (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/270091-an-importance-of-faithfulness-to-a-local-church/).  I already know that you know that it was in response to our discussions that I started this thread as well.  I've just added a post or two since the last time I mentioned it.

[not an echo]

On 12/4/2021 at 5:12 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/3/2021 at 11:54 PM, not an echo said:

Kinda relating to this, I am here reminded of an experience I had in the early 90's when I was attending a Bible college.  It was coming up on the New Year and I had read 33 books in the course of that year.  One was the New Testament, for this was a basic requirement for a New Testament Survey or Life of Christ class I had had that year.  Anyway, I was feeling that I needed a break from reading "books" and I determined that for the upcoming year, it was going to be the year of the Bible for me.  I wasn't going to read anything but the Bible, and I was also going to have ink pen and paper ready to write my own commentary thoughts on it along the way.  Well, when the year was finished, I had wrote some 200 pages of Bible notes.  And, you know how far I got in the Bible?  To Genesis 19!  I didn't even get a good start!

So you made 200 pages of notes for 19 chapters of one book and got nowhere? That's a futile climb to an infinity of hopelessness.

I said, "I didn't even get a good start!"  Diaste, that doesn't mean that I got nowhere, except possibly in your eyes.  The year that I did that was a standout year in my life experience, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.  Libraries are full of works of pure fiction that far exceed in volume what I wrote that year.  And, I've read a few of them.  But, they didn't change or impact my life---at all.  Why would you think it would be "a futile climb to an infinity of hopelessness" for me to average writing some 10 pages of thoughts per chapter of The Bible, the most influential book on the face of the earth?  Now, if I was still in high school, I could plug into what you are saying.  But, at that time in my life, I hadn't discovered the joy of writing, much less writing in connection with what is found in the Word of God.

[not an echo]

On 12/4/2021 at 5:12 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/3/2021 at 11:54 PM, not an echo said:

Back to my reply, I must say that I have struggled some with how to reply.  Let me just focus a bit on Ezekiel 29-32, and I'm going to try to be as helpful and kind as I know how to be---but also serious.  There are historical indicators galore in these chapters that solidly support that what Ezekiel was writing pertained to his era of time---not the last days.  In these chapters, when you see the word Pharaoh, there's no present Pharaoh, and there is no prophesied last days Pharaoh.  When you see the word Babylon, your mind may go to the Babylon spoken of in The Revelation.  But, the Babylon spoken of in this block of Scripture (Ezek. 29-32) is Nebuchadrezzar's Babylon.  When you see the phrase, "the terrible of the nations" (e.g., 32:12), this is a reference to Nebuchadrezzar and his Babylon (30:10-11).  In chapter 31, there is a sandwich of thought concerning Assyria, but for Egypt's contemplation.  Note the top and bottom bun, if you will, of verses 2 and 18.  Moreover, God informs Ezekiel to say of this time, "Woe worth the day!  For the day IS NEAR, even THE DAY OF THE LORD is near, a cloudy day;  it shall be the time of the heathen (Ezek. 30:2-3).  Egypt was fixing to get it, just like Judah was getting it, just like the Assyrians had got it---at the hand of Nebuchadrezzar's Babylon (30:10-11).

If the players and the time frame is clearly defined that's one thing. I can see that. That isn't really the point, however. The direction which I point to in every case is the fulfillment and similarities across several prophets and time spans. The entire prophecy has to come to pass as spoken or the prophecy did not come to pass. 

We don't get to pick and choose an element of a prophecy, or a couple we like, and find an ancient fulfillment of two or three select events and claim the prophecy has come to pass. It's all of it or nothing. In the case of Joel 1 it's nothing to this point. 

What is it about Joel 1:1-2:11 that did not come to pass--- according to Scripture and its concepts?

On 12/4/2021 at 5:12 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/3/2021 at 11:54 PM, not an echo said:

Now, concerning the "historical evidence" that you are always saying you are wanting to see, sometimes there is some and sometimes there is not.  But, what I am hearing you say is that if you can't see the historical evidence of what has been prophesied having took place, you can't accept that it has.

This is strictly for you. I'm not asking you to prove it to me. Historical evidence would also include anything in scripture proclaiming a solid fulfillment of all of the particular prophecy. Among the attributes of the inspired word of the Lord Most High is an historical record of important events. You didn't assume I meant only secular sources, did you? 

Concerning your question, No.  But it seems that you are not accepting the Bible's evidences of either, whether historical or what was soon to become historical.

On 12/4/2021 at 5:12 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/3/2021 at 11:54 PM, not an echo said:

I mean, if the historical context is Ezekiel's day, and the prophecy says that "At Tehaphnehes also the day shall be darkened" (Ezek. 30:18), I'm going to accept that at Tehaphnehes also the day was darkened!  I mean, if it makes the Jerusalem News or not, I'm accepting it. 

Of course. Allowing for and discerning any literary device that may be present. Stuff like this tends to give me pause to reflect a bit. It's almost as if Christains think faith is their God these days. Jesus didn't metaphorically go to the cross. All the prophecies by the many prophets over great spans of time all pointed to that one event. An event which came to pass in real time with real people, right here on this earth, in our dimension. 

Above you rely on specifics, no believing in that which can't be proven. I bet there's a secular source somewhere that's evidence the above came to pass. So why don't you rely on specifics when it comes to Joel 1? 

Concerning your question here, my thread is replete with both specific and broad Scriptural evidences that Joel 1:1-2:11 has been fulfilled.  And remember, we have not gotten to the end of our path...

On 12/4/2021 at 5:12 AM, Diaste said:

On 12/3/2021 at 11:54 PM, not an echo said:

I get the impression sometimes that you believe everything written in the prophets is yet to be fulfilled.

Yeah. I think the moment of the cross is yet to be fulfilled. I'm still waiting on the ascension. I think pentecost is in 2025. sheesh!

In the context of our discussions Diaste, I would have thought you would have known what I meant.  I should have added to my statement above something like "concerning anything that rings of what the last days' Day of the LORD holds."

The Day of the LORD is a unique time of God's judgment and wrath.  And, whether it is one that has occurred, or one that is yet to occur, while there are differences, there are also similarities, no matter the years or centuries of separation.

I hope that the truth of this is not lost in an argument over semantics, but I think of it kinda like this:  In 1945, Japan experienced the day of the nuclear bomb.  There had never been a bomb dropped like this one.  We don't know where, when, or if another nuclear bomb will be dropped, but if there ever is, another country will experience its own day of the nuclear bomb.  There are no other bombs like these bombs.  They are unique.  Yet, if another country is ever nuked, there will be many things that are the same as what happened with the first such bombing---and some things that will be different.  But, as there is no mistaking the blast of a nuclear bomb, there is no mistaking a Day of the LORD.  Both Israel and Judah experienced it.  And when they did, it was the Day of the LORD for them. Similarly, both Hiroshima and Nagasaki experienced the nuclear bomb.  We know that there is a fear that another day of the nuclear bomb may come, especially the fear of a nuclear exchange.  And, if something like this happens, the way everything shapes up, it will be far worse than what happened in Japan.  Likewise with the Day of the LORD that I believe is looming on our horizon.  This last one will be far worse than what happened to Israel and Judah, as it ultimately will result in the destruction of this present world (II Pet. 3:10-13 with Rev. 20:11; 21:1).

[Diaste]

On 12/9/2021 at 5:55 PM, not an echo said:

I said, "I didn't even get a good start!"  Diaste, that doesn't mean that I got nowhere, except possibly in your eyes.  The year that I did that was a standout year in my life experience, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.  Libraries are full of works of pure fiction that far exceed in volume what I wrote that year.  And, I've read a few of them.  But, they didn't change or impact my life---at all.  Why would you think it would be "a futile climb to an infinity of hopelessness" for me to average writing some 10 pages of thoughts per chapter of The Bible, the most influential book on the face of the earth?  Now, if I was still in high school, I could plug into what you are saying.  But, at that time in my life, I hadn't discovered the joy of writing, much less writing in connection with what is found in the Word of God.

To each his own I guess. I try to cancel my thoughts and listen to the Teacher. I want to be filled and a full cup cannot take in any more tea.