Why would God punish us in this dispensation (New Covenant) when Christ has been punished for us?

[steve morrow]

BEING  THANKFUL  FOR  CHASTENING  --  BECAUSE

 

HEBREWS 12:7  if you endure chastening  ---  GOD  dealeth with you as sons for what son is he whom  THE  FATHER  chasteneth not 

--12:8-- but if you be without chastisement whereof all are partakers  then you are bastards  and not sons

 

1 THESSALONIANS 5:18  in everything --give thanks-- for this is the will of  GOD  in  CHRIST  JESUS  concerning you

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

[Alive]

Isn't it important that we distinguish between a few things experienced by the redeemed?

1. The Lord Himself promised tribulation

2. The rain falls on the just and the unjust

3. The personal and individual chastisement of the Father for a son's benefit and by extension the health of the entire Body

Chastisement and or punishment is not condemnation.

All of the above can be seen in the context of the following scripture--and of course the whole of scripture.

Rom. 8:1 (NAS20S)   Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Rom. 8:28 (NAS20S)   And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. ²⁹ For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; ³⁰ and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

[Kelly2363]

5 hours ago, biblelesson said:

You are absolutely correct.  The bible warns about many false prophets who will be punished  to include those who uphold them as well, and yes we see this throughout many ministries that started more than 40 years ago.    But how is what I posted upholding "abuse and harm the flocks of God" by these falsehoods?

Just because people take advantage of and manipulate God's people in false ministries, that does not erase the truth of God's word.  It's unfortunate that we have to deal with situations such as the one you mention, but we must learn how to discern. Many unsuspecting Christians have been taken advantage of by false ministries, and still are being taking advantage of and mislead.  I for one have been hurt by them, but what I did not know then, I know now. God led me out and healed my hurt. 

 

 

If I quote myself to answer the element of your comment that I have taken the liberty to highlight in red, then I may be able to answer your question - And I have highlighted the specific point in my original post in red to connect the idea together.

My original comment below:

.....the church in many places is filled with people who utterly depend on exactly these premises to abuse and harm the flocks of God. Just as in the past and to a lesser extent today the church in many places has been filled with those who abuse the flocks by a heavy hand. Today they abuse the flocks by turning away from sin and winking at harm.

It stands to reason that if there is any truth in that highlighted element in my own comment - then there are two groups being spoken of. That is clearly the pastors and elders in the one group - they of my comment - And the flock itself - the ones who's sin is turned away from and the winking at harm is both groups. If there were no sin in the flock then there could be no winking at it by a pastoral ministry along with the broader eldership of the church. And neither could there be any harm unless turning away from sin were not itself harmful - or else -overlooking the condition of anyone who receives a heavy handed pastoral ministry - were not harmed.

My observations have been over the near 40 years I have been burdened to understand a question I first asked the Lord when I was saved in 1984 - is that back then the churches were essentially quiet legalistic in the sense that pastors used to adopt a very strong position in the way they upheld a standard of living a godly life both personally, and corporately in the way they preached and taught. Today these same churches seem powerless to address even fornication, adultery, divorce, boastings, pride, and selfishness. And so the pastors and elders have simply turned away from it and wink at the harm that these fleshy effects produce in individuals and ultimately even in the way churches function. 

So when I write something on such a serious issue I am not making impersonal or abstract claims I am making claims to what I have observed and others have observed with whom I have spoken for the whole time. And the only reason in saying that is because I know that to ground any of this in Scripture would simply give rise to a use of Scripture to repeal the claim. That is what we have come to. 

A Pastor, who 40 years ago condemned a marriage from the pulpit because the groom didn't yield to his pastoral demands - could cite 40 years later that an adulterous pastor could be forgiven even when he was told that the adulterous pastor had both hidden his sin but when exposed took a limited approach and refused to even step down. The one is a harsh judgmental spirit and the later is a spirit that turns away from sin - And both 40 years ago and today it is a winking at harm. 

That is why I said that your presentation had major problems. The time for these things to be addressed in the terms you have prescribed are nearly over. The effect of the last 40 years are almost full and the cost is nearly upon us. And to be open with you, were it not for the fact that the Lord gave me a means to have hope in His sovereign hand to give the churches a chance to repent and come to obedience I would more than likely have lost all hope by now. But He did and so I am always looking for that hand of the Lord - but I know that when it comes some will be taken out of the way and the many will repent. I have seen that effect in a small measure numerous times and when the Lord judges it is a fearful thing. When He shows mercy we are caused to fall on our faces and cry out.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Kelly2363
Clarification

[johnthebaptist]

10 hours ago, biblelesson said:

God does not punish us in our life under this current dispensation (New Covenant) because His Son took our punishment; Jesus died to cover the sins of the world and sin is blotted out in Christ, Colossians 2:14, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

 God is working today to gathering the souls of those who will be saved in Christ; and He is doing this through the Holy Spirit.   

Philippians 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”   So, It is God who Has begun a good work, and He is perfecting it in us, 1 Peter 5:10, “But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.”

1 Corinthians 1:3-4, “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, who comforteth us in all our tribulations, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.  So, as we go through our tribulation and suffering and afterwards, we are to comfort others the way God comforts us.  But if we think we are being punished, how will God comfort us?

We will suffer tribulation, persecution, and difficult times, which is the process of the furnace of fire. When we find ourselves in the furnace, it’s a shock to the system, the psyche, and the heart.  Christians are place in situation they have never experience before, and of course will not have the knowledge and wisdom to help them maneuver in such situations.  God is aware that when He throws the Christian in the furnace of fire, that Christian is going to make many mistakes throughout their trial, and these mistakes are sins.   However, we are told to count it all joy.  So, what are we counting all joy while going through such trials that we don’t like, don’t know how to handle, don’t know what to do, is scarry, heart breaking, makes us angry, etc.?  What’s the joy of such a situation?  God’s grace is the joy.  God knowing the pain and suffering we will endure is working to make us “walk thou holy before Him.”  We are being made perfect for the Kingdom in Christ Jesus.
 
But because we really, really don’t understand, at first, we think that because our reactions of anger, strong words to others, bitterness, and other responses, which is what the trials are supposed to bring out, is wrong and sinful, and God is punishing us. We think, “I must have sinned, that’s why I’m dealing with this situation.”   But no, God is not punishing us.  Jesus was punished for us.  God is growing us to be able to STAND!  

When we think God is punishing us, we are making a mistake in judgment.  What’s happening is we are following the lies of the devil.  

There are two planes:

Plane 1

In Christ there is no sin because Christ has been made sin for us, 2 Corinthians 5:21.   Therefore, God does not impute sin onto us, Romans 4:8.  In this present dispensation, God does not punish us, but allow us to go through trials for His purposes for our salvation.  But He is doing the work on us, and we will get through it.  

Plane 2

Satan is the one causing the grief, but God allows it like Job.  God uses it for good, but Satan uses it for bad.  Satan lies and tells us that we are going through our suffering because we committed a sin against God, and that we are being punished.  But this is a lie because Christ died for the sinner, and we are a reconciled to God in Christ.  

2 Corinthians 5:18, “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them…”

So, we are not being punished for our sins in this dispensation (New Covenant), we are being put through trials that are difficult, which provides an opportunity for Satan to lie to us, like he did with job by causing Job’s friends to make incorrect assessment of his situation causing more grief for him. 

The punishment will come in the end for those who do not accept Christ as their savior.  

 

We do need to be disciplined when we've done wong, as a parent disciplines a child. It's for our own good.

[biblelesson]

3 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

If I quote myself to answer the element of your comment that I have taken the liberty to highlight in red, then I may be able to answer your question - And I have highlighted the specific point in my original post in red to connect the idea together.

My original comment below:

.....the church in many places is filled with people who utterly depend on exactly these premises to abuse and harm the flocks of God. Just as in the past and to a lesser extent today the church in many places has been filled with those who abuse the flocks by a heavy hand. Today they abuse the flocks by turning away from sin and winking at harm.

It stands to reason that if there is any truth in that highlighted element in my own comment - then there are two groups being spoken of. That is clearly the pastors and elders in the one group - they of my comment - And the flock itself - the ones who's sin is turned away from and the winking at harm is both groups. If there were no sin in the flock then there could be no winking at it by a pastoral ministry along with the broader eldership of the church. And neither could there be any harm unless turning away from sin were not itself harmful - or else -overlooking the condition of anyone who receives a heavy handed pastoral ministry - were not harmed.

My observations have been over the near 40 years I have been burdened to understand a question I first asked the Lord when I was saved in 1984 - is that back then the churches were essentially quiet legalistic in the sense that pastors used to adopt a very strong position in the way they upheld a standard of living a godly life both personally, and corporately in the way they preached and taught. Today these same churches seem powerless to address even fornication, adultery, divorce, boastings, pride, and selfishness. And so the pastors and elders have simply turned away from it and wink at the harm that these fleshy effects produce in individuals and ultimately even in the way churches function. 

So when I write something on such a serious issue I am not making impersonal or abstract claims I am making claims to what I have observed and others have observed with whom I have spoken for the whole time. And the only reason in saying that is because I know that to ground any of this in Scripture would simply give rise to a use of Scripture to repeal the claim. That is what we have come to. 

A Pastor, who 40 years ago condemned a marriage from the pulpit because the groom didn't yield to his pastoral demands - could cite 40 years later that an adulterous pastor could be forgiven even when he was told that the adulterous pastor had both hidden his sin but when exposed took a limited approach and refused to even step down. The one is a harsh judgmental spirit and the later is a spirit that turns away from sin - And both 40 years ago and today it is a winking at harm. 

That is why I said that your presentation had major problems. The time for these things to be addressed in the terms you have prescribed are nearly over. The effect of the last 40 years are almost full and the cost is nearly upon us. And to be open with you, were it not for the fact that the Lord gave me a means to have hope in His sovereign hand to give the churches a chance to repent and come to obedience I would more than likely have lost all hope by now. But He did and so I am always looking for that hand of the Lord - but I know that when it comes some will be taken out of the way and the many will repent. I have seen that effect in a small measure numerous times and when the Lord judges it is a fearful thing. When He shows mercy we are caused to fall on our faces and cry out.

What's confusing about your post is you seem to be focused outside of yourself, and judging the sinful wrongs of the many false preachers and elders in these churches when the bible has provides us warnings about them, and deals with the very subject you are talking about. You are saying no more than what God has already said in, Matthew 7:15-20, Ezekiel 13:3, 1 John 4:1, Romans 16:8, Deuteronomy 18:20,  Corinthians 11:13-15, just to name a few.  It will be these false preachers, teachers, apostle, etc. who will assist with causing many to fall.  They are causing many to fall away now.  Micah 3:5 says, "Thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.  

And as for the people who stay under the false preachers, and false teachings, God says in Isaiah 30:9-13, "That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord: 10 Which say to the seers, See not and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: 11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel (Jesus) to cease form before us." 

There is nothing we can do about this situation because it has been already prophesied.  However, God warns His people to come out from among them, not wonder about it.  2 Corinthians 6:17, "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separated, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you."   

And 2 John 1:9-10 warns that "Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, received him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

When it comes to "us" examining ourselves, we are not to look at the behaviors of others before looking at ourselves.  We have to be careful to not fall into Romans 2:21-22,, "Thou therefore that teaches another, do thou teach thyself? thou that preaches a man should not steal, does thou steal, Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, doest thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, doest thou commit sacrilege?"  

I pray to God Almighty that we follow the gospel and not be persuaded to follow falsehood based on our own arrogance and pride. One scripture that is really important to understand is 2 Peter 3:16 which says, "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."   This scripture should cause us all to pray to God, regularly, for discernment of the gospel of Christ!

Just to clarify, my post was written to address a Christian suffering, which the bible addresses as trials that we go through.  And while going through these trials, we are not to think God is punishing us because of a sinful behavior, because our sins have been forgiven through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross who shed His blood for us.  But we are to understand the trials are to address our sinful nature.  God needs to change us to be like Christ, to be holy before Him, Hebrews 9:14, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 1:9, Titus 3:5,  Titus 2:14.  There are many more scriptures that explain this process.  It's the sanctification process that we go through, 1 Timothy 2:21, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."  These are not just words.  This is a real process that we go through ordained by God, and it's not a walk in the park.  The definition for sanctification means: to make holy, set apart as sacred, consecrate, to purify or free form sin.  The furnace of fire is to purify as mentioned in 1 Peter 4:12, "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the "fiery trial" which is to try you.....  and 1 Peter 1:7, "That the trial of your faith being much more precious than gold that parisheth, though it be tried with fire..."  Peter is quoting from Isaiah 48:10, "Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." 

Jesus said in John 15:20, that "...The servant is not greater than his Lord. If  they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you..."  These words spoken by Christ, God will honor. Those in Christ who are Christ's servants, will have to deal with what Christ prophesied.  No one likes it, but we love God, and we go through it knowing we are being perfected in Christ through the Holy Spirit.  

But, if a Christian does not go through this, then this verse applies as someone else pointed out, Hebrews 12:8, "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then ye are bastards, and not sons."  

 

God bless!

[Kelly2363]

38 minutes ago, biblelesson said:

What's confusing about your post is you seem to be focused outside of yourself, and judging the sinful wrongs of the many false preachers and elders in these churches when the bible has provides us warnings about them, and deals with the very subject you are talking about. You are saying no more than what God has already said in, Matthew 7:15-20, Ezekiel 13:3, 1 John 4:1, Romans 16:8, Deuteronomy 18:20,  Corinthians 11:13-15, just to name a few.  It will be these false preachers, teachers, apostle, etc. who will assist with causing many to fall.  They are causing many to fall away now.  Micah 3:5 says, "Thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.

The things I witnessed to in my post - and the effect I spoke about - may very well have been a looking to others conduct - albeit that I can only discern why you feel a need to say it - yet I did not say that any of the brethren in that witness were false. They were all believers and holding to a living faith. I could have named them individually. I simply bore witness of their failings and the effect that has had in the churches. What I elected not to do was speak of false prophets and teachers that came into the churches and devoured the flocks. None of the brethren I spoke about are false brethren. `they are all alive and they are all born again. None were tares or false brethren. They are all sheep. 

[biblelesson]

32 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

The things I witnessed to in my post - and the effect I spoke about - may very well have been a looking to others conduct - albeit that I can only discern why you feel a need to say it - yet I did not say that any of the brethren in that witness were false. They were all believers and holding to a living faith. I could have named them individually. I simply bore witness of their failings and the effect that has had in the churches. What I elected not to do was speak of false prophets and teachers that came into the churches and devoured the flocks. None of the brethren I spoke about are false brethren. `they are all alive and they are all born again. None were tares or false brethren. They are all sheep. 

What you mentioned related to falsehood in the ministry, so that's why I mentioned it. 

This is what you said: "Well I suppose I made several visible points because I stated them - but if you mean what was not stated then I mean that tribulation as it is coming will be punishment on a wicked and perverse house that has made a commodity out of the flock. And that will first descend upon the pastors and the elders - and then likewise to those who have upheld them in their abuses. There is no hope at all for the false prophetic ministry of 40 years ago that brought these effects and consequences in." 

 

[Kelly2363]

7 minutes ago, biblelesson said:

What you mentioned related to falsehood in the ministry, so that's why I mentioned it. 

This is what you said: "Well I suppose I made several visible points because I stated them - but if you mean what was not stated then I mean that tribulation as it is coming will be punishment on a wicked and perverse house that has made a commodity out of the flock. And that will first descend upon the pastors and the elders - and then likewise to those who have upheld them in their abuses. There is no hope at all for the false prophetic ministry of 40 years ago that brought these effects and consequences in." 

 

Yes and in that what I said was visible - but your comment to which I replied and now incites your current reply was expressly answering your relevant question and did not and was not about false anything. It was clearly stated. I don't think that this matters to pursue it. Shalom.

[biblelesson]

15 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

Yes and in that what I said was visible - but your comment to which I replied and now incites your current reply was expressly answering your relevant question and did not and was not about false anything. It was clearly stated. I don't think that this matters to pursue it. Shalom.

Ok, maybe I have misunderstood you.  So back to the original post.  How do you see the suffering Christians go through in your own personal life, and that we suffer based on our sinful nature to be conformed to Christ, and not based on sins we commit?  Jesus covers our sins.  But our sinful nature is what God is working with!  God shows us ourselves through the sufferings, and then heals those areas that need healing to produce a Christ like faith and the Fruit of the Spirit in us. 

What do you think?

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by biblelesson

[Kelly2363]

1 hour ago, biblelesson said:

Ok, maybe I have misunderstood you.  So back to the original post.  How do you see the suffering Christians go through in your own personal life, and that we suffer based on our sinful nature to be conformed to Christ, and not based on sins we commit?  Jesus covers our sins.  But our sinful nature is what God is working with!  God shows us ourselves through the sufferings, and then heals those areas that need healing to produce a Christ like faith and the fruits of the Spirit in us. 

What do you think?

 

I think you have misunderstood me clearly. And there seems to be no shortage of that on Internet forums. What I do know, however, as a fact of face to face life in the churches and in private with Pastors and Elders - and even occasionally with some brethren that are extremely gifted and have a good account to their ministries - this subject is misunderstood even when it is stated plainly. The reason for that seems to be essentially characterised in what you opened the thread with. Unless of course I have misunderstood you.

But if we take the element I have highlighted in red above then what could I say of that - seeing as you have asked me?

Well I would say that it sounds like the truth. And even in saying that the inflection already gives cause to be concerned that I am saying that it is a lie. That is the problem with spiritual meanings. A truth must be true as God reckons truth and as the Scripture proves its meaning - but truth must also be set in the reality of the experience of brethren in the churches - so that a sounds like the truth - may not in fact do any harm and neither might it be a lie. Whereas, it may in truth be well short of what is either needful or biblically true. And the measure of that is set in prophetic lines that cannot be easily explained.

So if for example you were in my church and you shared onetime and said precisely what you have said in red above - then it is likely that almost the entirety of the church would say Amen. Only a bitter person may stumble at it. And a bitter person may have good cause to be bitter because he may have been genuinely harmed in the church itself. So when he hears that which asserts a meaning that tells him that Jesus' blood covers his sins - or that He bore his sins in His own body - or that He was chastised for his iniquities - he may well remember that these things were once his and yet he also may know that he is broken and cannot even receive such a simple truth. Spiritual meanings and effects do not simply run one way from God to men - but they also run from men to God. The Father sees that man's heart and one day He will answer his cries. 

Almost all the Pastors and Elders I know refuse to see that condition - overlooking that reality they almost always press the man to forgive without even acknowledging the offence - or else rebuke him if he shows the least anger and speaks out. And in churches that have thrown off any truly godly restraint he may be encouraged to join in the parade despite his condition of bitterness and a way is found to accommodate his condition and the man is eventually drawn into the same ill effect that grips his Pastor and the Elders so that his position is twice as bad as it was when he was stumbled by a harsh hand. 

Some believers are simply carnal and fleshy and don't want to live holy and godly lives. Other believers are bitter as described above and other believers are spiritually full of pride. The list can be almost endless - but every part of it has a reality that consists of all believers being beneficiaries of Christ' sacrifice of Himself for their sin - and their walk that either glorifies Him or else in the end puts Him to an open shame. In our time that condition is nearly full. So to answer your question in red above then prophetically I say that it is not nearly sufficient to express the truth of what God has done to provide us a way to walk by faith - and a way to escape by reasonable means. What God did to answer these things was laid down from the foundation of the Earth. And that meaning is altogether Christ crucified for sin and our death and resurrection in Him and only then when we have truly understood the Cross - do we find even a semblance of liberty to say what you have said in a time when the Cross is almost entirely refused because it speaks of an end to life and the grave. 

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Kelly2363
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