What if others will be in heaven?

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

You have misunderstood.

My post did not mean that people cannot be judged, unless they have heard the gospel!  I meant that people cannot be saved, unless they have heard the gospel, repented and believed in Jesus Christ.

People are, ever since the fall of Adam, by default, under God's condemnation.  If they die in that condition, they will go to hell.

The second issue in this post is found in paragraph one lines 4-8.

"I meant that people cannot be saved, unless they have heard the gospel, repented and believed in Jesus Christ."

To put it in another way people who are Saved from condemnation in Hell are the only people who are in the  righteousness of Jesus Christ their Judge, in whom their bowing before him.  

No one is in the righteousness of Jesus Christ a) unless first he has heard the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that he died for the forgiveness of the sins for every one who ever lives before the Cross and everyone their after. Without any exception. 

How does Jesus determines whether someone who is standing before him is in right standing with him?

This question is answer because Jesus Christ can see in the heart of the person standing before him faith in him for the forgiveness of his sins. 

To have forgiveness of his sins in his death on Cross it includes that his sins are under his blood and that he is in Jesus Christ righteousness or in the righteousness of the one whom he is standing before him. 

And to be in his righteousness he is also in his Eternal Life.  

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, David1701 said:

You have misunderstood.

My post did not mean that people cannot be judged, unless they have heard the gospel!  I meant that people cannot be saved, unless they have heard the gospel, repented and believed in Jesus Christ.

People are, ever since the fall of Adam, by default, under God's condemnation.  If they die in that condition, they will go to hell.

The third issue is found in paragraph two the last paragraph which reads as follows. 

"People are, ever since the fall of Adam, by default, under God's condemnation.  If they die in that condition, they will go to hell."

Edited October 8, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Waggles]

Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat thereon, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and no place was found for them. 
12  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and booklets were opened: and another booklet was opened, which is that of life: and the dead were judged out of the things written in the booklets, according to their works. 
13  And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead in them: and they were judged each according to their works. 
14  And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 
15  And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. 

[David1701]

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

There are three issues raised in this post.

The first one is found in paragraph one lines 1-4.

"My post did not mean that people cannot be judged, unless they have heard the gospel!"

This is the heart of the matter. Everyone has to appear after his death before Jesus Christ "every knee shall bow down before him...

Before anything else everyone will stand before Jesus Christ to be announced according to whether he has believe or he has refused to believe.  

Everyone's works follows them. 

To repeat everyone appears without their works then when it has been determined if they have believed in the Gospel or not then the works of everyone comes in place. 

We have come to the understanding that there are people who only have works. Those are the people who because of no fault of their own they do not have in their hearts faith or denial in Jesus Christ. 

The question is are those people ready to appear before Jesus Christ to be deal according to their faith or their denial of their Judge Jesus Christ? 

I don't think you understand fallen man's condition.  He is a sinner who is hostile towards God, hates the light and will not come to it and he does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.  He is under God's condemnation and is, by nature, a child of wrath.

Unless God makes such a person born again, he will not enter the kingdom of God, by faith in Jesus Christ.

When a natural man (one not born again) dies, he has had no change of nature; so, he is hostile towards God, hates the light and will not come to it and does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.  He will go to hell.

Edited October 8, 2021 by David1701

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

I don't think you understand fallen man's condition.  He is a sinner who is hostile towards God, hates the light and will not come to it and he does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.  He is under God's condemnation and is, by nature, a child of wrath.

Unless God makes such a person born again, he will not enter the kingdom of God, by faith in Jesus Christ.

When a natural man (one not born again) dies, he has had no change of nature; so, he is hostile towards God, hates the light and will not come to it and does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.  He will go to hell.

Can you support your statements? 

Is this happening in the place or town where you live?

This is not what is taking place in real life, that's why you did not provide any example of people or Nation that fits that description. 

There are many and perhaps all of the examples are to the contrary, so I am not surprised that you did not post any example for study. 

Nicodemus is not described like that, Jesus Christ did not describe the people around him or the people of the neighboring countries Egiptians, Syria, Lebanon, Greeks, Egyptians, Assyrians, Hittites...,

[Amigo42]

On 10/6/2021 at 12:41 PM, Arrabon said:

 

@Amigo42

For me this is like you said in your post I quoted, HERETICAL thinking. You said it.

Not that your a heretic, but your posted thoughts open the door for some to believe there are other ways to honor God and get to heaven, than God's very "NARROW" thinking, Matthew 7:14, "14But small is the gate and"NARROW" the way that leads to life, and only a few find it."

As far as being saved by His blood, or any other way we choose to believe to be saved, it is certainly by a choice, as are all the other parts of our faith, and none of it happens without us knowing it.

We live in a real world of choices being made by the minute, so I stand against your reasoning, and I stand against the entire post, and wish whole heartedly that you hadn't been capable of thinking like this. I know your a good brother, so I am a bit shocked.

We have our marching orders from God Himself in

Matthew 28:19-20, "19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

I will be praying for you my brother.

Arrabon

So what of unborn children and those who have mental disabilities?

[Kelly2363]

2 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

So what of unborn children and those who have mental disabilities?

 

My first born son was conceived in his mothers body on the 26th July 1987 on the night of my wedding. The Lord spoke to me in my spirit and told me that my bride had conceived and gave me his name. So I told my wife that she was with child and gave her the name of my first born son. 

I spoke of him in this OP and made reference to his broken body. Yet in truth not only is his body broken but so also is his mind. He is severely disabled and neurologically brain injured. He cannot speak and he cannot direct the course of his own life in any part. When he was 3 months old he was dedicated to God in the church and nine members of the church prophesied over him. Some spoke with compassion seeing that even then his injuries were visible. Others spoke in a spirit of knowing the heart of the Father and so they spoke more meaningfully into why my son was known of God - yet in the sight of men he was broken.

When I speak to my son - by praising God in his hearing - he lifts his hands and agrees. When I ask him as one asks a small Child - "where is Jesus?" he places his hand on his heart and groans - because he cannot speak with his mouth. 

When the midwife wheeled his life support machine out of the theatre after he was born she said to me "congratulations - you have a son." So I said to her "his name is Daniel." Then I committed him to the Lord knowing that if the Father gave me his name on the night he was conceived - then whether he lived or died - he belonged to God.

So it is with all men who are born - who die in the womb or in childbirth or in infancy - but not so with you or with any other in possession of their own minds and in charge of their own bodies. Fear God - because to him you shall give an account - as we all shall give an account. 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Kelly2363
Spelling

[David1701]

10 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Can you support your statements? 

Is this happening in the place or town where you live?

This is not what is taking place in real life, that's why you did not provide any example of people or Nation that fits that description. 

There are many and perhaps all of the examples are to the contrary, so I am not surprised that you did not post any example for study. 

Nicodemus is not described like that, Jesus Christ did not describe the people around him or the people of the neighboring countries Egiptians, Syria, Lebanon, Greeks, Egyptians, Assyrians, Hittites...,

You're joking, right?  If not, then what has your church been teaching you?  What I posted was Christian basics, which is why I didn't supply any quotes - I thought you would know what scriptures I referred to.

I said:

1) That fallen man is a sinner, who is hostile towards God.

Rom. 8:6-9 (WEB)

6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.
8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.

Here we see clearly that man is either "in the flesh", hostile towards God and unable to please him, or he is "in the Spirit", if the Holy Spirit dwells in him.  There is no other condition.

2) I said that fallen man hates the light (i.e. the gospel and the Lord) and will not come to it.

John 3:19,20 (WEB)

19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 
20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 

This is, again, very clear.  Fallen man loves darkness and hates the light, nor does he come to the light.

This is why Nicodemus was told that you (plural) MUST be born again, in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.  We MUST be born again, in order to come to the Light for salvation, in repentance and faith - it is absolutely essential.

Incidentally, contrast the unregenerate man's attitude to the light, with one who has been born again.

John 3:21 (WEB) But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.” 

3) I said that fallen man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.

1 Cor. 2:14 (WEB) Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Again, very clear: the natural (unregenerate, without the Holy Spirit) man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, because he finds them foolish.

You claim that you don't see these biblical truths in real life.  Well, if that's true, then you are blind indeed.

What does the Lord himself say about fallen man's condition?

Luke 13:1-5 (WEB)

1 Now there were some present at the same time who told him about the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2 Jesus answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 
3 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way. 
4 Or those eighteen, on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them; do you think that they were worse offenders than all the men who dwell in Jerusalem? 
5 I tell you, no, but, unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.” 

All major branches of Christianity teach that every aspect of man is depraved and that fallen man cannot come to the Lord in faith, without God's enabling.  The Bible is very clear about it.

Rom. 3:9-19 (WEB)

9 What then? Are we better than they? No, in no way. For we previously warned both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one. 
11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God. 
12 They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not, so much as one.”  
13 “Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit.”  “The poison of vipers is under their lips;”  
14 “whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” 
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood. 
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways. 
17 The way of peace, they haven’t known.” 
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”  
19 Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.

I see and hear this every day, in real life.  What has blinded your eyes that you cannot see it?

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

You're joking, right?  If not, then what has your church been teaching you?  What I posted was Christian basics, which is why I didn't supply any quotes - I thought you would know what scriptures I referred to.

I said:

1) That fallen man is a sinner, who is hostile towards God.

Rom. 8:6-9 (WEB)

6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.
8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.

Here we see clearly that man is either "in the flesh", hostile towards God and unable to please him, or he is "in the Spirit", if the Holy Spirit dwells in him.  There is no other condition.

2) I said that fallen man hates the light (i.e. the gospel and the Lord) and will not come to it.

John 3:19,20 (WEB)

19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 
20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 

This is, again, very clear.  Fallen man loves darkness and hates the light, nor does he come to the light.

This is why Nicodemus was told that you (plural) MUST be born again, in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.  We MUST be born again, in order to come to the Light for salvation, in repentance and faith - it is absolutely essential.

Incidentally, contrast the unregenerate man's attitude to the light, with one who has been born again.

John 3:21 (WEB) But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.” 

3) I said that fallen man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.

1 Cor. 2:14 (WEB) Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Again, very clear: the natural (unregenerate, without the Holy Spirit) man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, because he finds them foolish.

You claim that you don't see these biblical truths in real life.  Well, if that's true, then you are blind indeed.

What does the Lord himself say about fallen man's condition?

Luke 13:1-5 (WEB)

1 Now there were some present at the same time who told him about the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2 Jesus answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 
3 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way. 
4 Or those eighteen, on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them; do you think that they were worse offenders than all the men who dwell in Jerusalem? 
5 I tell you, no, but, unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.” 

All major branches of Christianity teach that every aspect of man is depraved and that fallen man cannot come to the Lord in faith, without God's enabling.  The Bible is very clear about it.

Rom. 3:9-19 (WEB)

9 What then? Are we better than they? No, in no way. For we previously warned both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one. 
11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God. 
12 They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not, so much as one.”  
13 “Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit.”  “The poison of vipers is under their lips;”  
14 “whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” 
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood. 
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways. 
17 The way of peace, they haven’t known.” 
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”  
19 Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.

I see and hear this every day, in real life.  What has blinded your eyes that you cannot see it?

Your scriptures reference about what Jesus said in Luke 13:1-5 

Luke 13:1-5 (WEB)

1 Now there were some present at the same time who told him about the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2 Jesus answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 
3 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way. 

4 Or those eighteen, on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them; do you think that they were worse offenders than all the men who dwell in Jerusalem? 
5 I tell you, no, but, unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.” 

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees  the .most righteous people in the Nation of Israel..whose portion after death was to be gather to the Bossom of Abraham.....

Another time Jesus said to his disciples "unless your righteousness surpasses the righteousness of the Pharisees you cannot be Saved. 

Jesus never said anything against his disciples in the way he spoke about the Pharisees, yet Jesus said with this example that the Pharisees were more righteous than his disciples. 

He said unless your righteousness surpasses the righteousness of the Pharisees......

You shall not be Saved...

 In this example Jesus mention what kind of righteousness they needed to have to be SAVED. 

Jesus talked of a righteousness higher than the righteousness of the righteousness of the Pharisees. 

His disciples righteousness were not as high as the righteousness of the Pharisees and said: "then who can be Saved".

The disciples of Jesus Christ and the Pharisees were at that time before the Cross.  

 

[David1701]

38 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Your scriptures reference about what Jesus said in Luke 13:1-5 

Luke 13:1-5 (WEB)

1 Now there were some present at the same time who told him about the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2 Jesus answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 
3 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way. 

4 Or those eighteen, on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them; do you think that they were worse offenders than all the men who dwell in Jerusalem? 
5 I tell you, no, but, unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.” 

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees  the .most righteous people in the Nation of Israel..whose portion after death was to be gather to the Bossom of Abraham.....

Another time Jesus said to his disciples "unless your righteousness surpasses the righteousness of the Pharisees you cannot be Saved. 

Jesus never said anything against his disciples in the way he spoke about the Pharisees, yet Jesus said with this example that the Pharisees were more righteous than his disciples. 

He said unless your righteousness surpasses the righteousness of the Pharisees......

You shall not be Saved...

 In this example Jesus mention what kind of righteousness they needed to have to be SAVED. 

Jesus talked of a righteousness higher than the righteousness of the righteousness of the Pharisees. 

His disciples righteousness were not as high as the righteousness of the Pharisees and said: "then who can be Saved".

The disciples of Jesus Christ and the Pharisees were at that time before the Cross.  

 

Never mind...