The Need for a Future Millennium

[Retrobyter]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:02 AM, Josheb said:

... That sovereignty, that power, authority, that rule has always been there eternally and there is not and has never been a point in time or space when the triune God did not rule. 

...

Hi, Josheb.

(Part 8)

When the Word became flesh, was born as the King of the Jews, was named "Yeshua`" ("Jesus"), and was called "the Son of God," He was ... DIFFERENT ... than His Father! He had and has a UNIQUE mission for mankind! Not only did He die for the sins of the whole world, but He also bears their names before His Father and makes intercession for them because He was and is as ONE OF THEM!

However, HIS OWN sovereignty is now to be over the world of human beings, past, present, and future!

That's what He was saying, both in the parables and in the prophecies He spoke:

Luke 19:11-27 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman (referring to Himself) went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy till I come.'

14 "But his citizens (referring to the Pharisees etc.)  hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!"

15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.'

17 "And he said unto him,

"'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.'

18 "And the second came, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.'

19 "And he said likewise to him,

"'Be thou also over five cities.'

20 "And another came, saying,

"'Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.'

22 "And he saith unto him,

"'Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?'

24 "And he said unto them that stood by,

"'Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.'

25 "(And they said unto him,

"'Lord, he hath ten pounds!') 

26"'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me!'"

Thus, Yeshua` is going to return, having received the Kingdom from His Father, and shall begin to reign!

He said as much in the Olivet Discourse!

Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory (brightness), and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory (His brightness): 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, 

"'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me."

37 "Then shall the righteous answer him, saying,

"'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?'

40 "And the King shall answer and say unto them,

"'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.'

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,

"'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.' 

44 "Then shall they also answer him, saying,

"'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?'

45 "Then shall he answer them, saying,

"'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.'

46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

(BTW, I think this is the ONLY time He referred to Himself as "the King.")

[Retrobyter]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:02 AM, Josheb said:

...

All temporally-divided rules of God are bad theology. This is why all such eschatologies fail both scripturally and logically. 

God has kept His promises. He just did not keep them the way some people think He has to keep them. It is not God who is slow in keeping His promises; it is that the promises - according to the New Testament - were not all to be read as stated. They were veiled. They weren't just words about earthly matters; they were spiritual words about spiritual matter that the natural man could not understand. If anything the Jews should all be angry at not coming right out and speaking more plainly! Yet to this day a veil remains over their eyes..... according to the new revelation. In the end one of the biggest problems to avoid in eschatology is that of Judaizing Christianity. That practice was repudiated in the epistolary.

...

Hi, Josheb.

(Part 9)

Actually, that's not true. What is called "Judaizing" today is not what we find in Galatians 2, for instance: Paul said, ...

Galatians 2:11-21 (KJV)

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 

12 For before that certain came from James (the pastor of the Jerusalem church), he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself (from the Gentiles), fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all,

"If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

That's the Judaizing that was discouraged and condemned in the early churches! It was being two-faced! Being all "goody-two-shoes" with the Jews, but relaxing when it was just the Gentiles present.

However, this same Paul who told the Galatians these things, also told the Romans later,

Romans 2:17-3:4 (KJV)

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 

24 "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you," as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,

"That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

Do not be misled; this fact about the Jew being one who is a Jew inwardly did not begin with the believers after the First Advent! DAVID knew this was a matter of the heart, not the deeds of the Law! The prophets of God, like MICAH, communicated this to the children of Israel, as well!

[Retrobyter]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:02 AM, Josheb said:

...

Couple of questions for you. Real plain. Real simple. When Jesus comes back to earth to sit on his earthly throne, will there be an actual physical throne on which he sits? ...

Hi, Josheb.

(Part 10)

Yes, but wherever He sits will be His throne. As the presence of the Queen of England makes the flags fly over the palace in which she currently is found; so too, wherever the King of Israel graces with His presence will be a Holy Place!

[Retrobyter]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:02 AM, Josheb said:

... If so, in what building will that throne be placed? Where will Jesus live? Will it be in a palace where the throne also sits or will there be one building for the throne room and another separate building where he lives, where his living room, dining room, kitchen, and a bedroom in which he can lay his head at night? Will any of this be in a physical temple of stone, or does the temple exist at all? Will the temple also be a separate building? Will Jesus have a palace from which to rule, a residence from which to live when not doing official king duties, and a temple where people gather to worship God? 

...

Hi, Josheb.

(Part 11)

To answer these questions, I will simply quote Psalm 45:

Psalm 45:1-8 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician upon Shoshannim, for the sons of Korah, Maschil, A Song of loves.}

My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.

6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad.
 

We also have the words of YHWH God through His prophet Y'chezk'eel ("Ezekiel"):

Ezekiel 43:1-9 (KJV)

1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east: 2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. 3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face. 4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. 5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.

6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me. 7 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places. 8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger. 9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

Ezekiel 44:1-5 (KJV)

1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. 2 Then said the LORD unto me;

"This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. 3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same."

4 Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD: and I fell upon my face. 5 And the LORD said unto me,

"Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary."

Ezekiel 45:1-8 (KJV)

1 Moreover, when ye shall divide by lot the land for inheritance, ye shall offer an oblation unto the LORD, an holy portion of the land: the length shall be the length of five and twenty thousand reeds (25,000 E-W), and the breadth shall be ten thousand (10,000 N-S). This shall be holy in all the borders thereof round about. 2 Of this there shall be for the sanctuary five hundred in length (500 E-W), with five hundred in breadth (500 N-S), square round about; and fifty cubits (50 cubits of 21") round about for the suburbs thereof. 3 And of this measure shalt thou measure the length of five and twenty thousand (25,000 E-W), and the breadth of ten thousand (10,000 N-S): and in it shall be the sanctuary and the most holy place. 4 The holy portion of the land shall be for the priests the ministers of the sanctuary, which shall come near to minister unto the LORD: and it shall be a place for their houses, and an holy place for the sanctuary. 5 And the five and twenty thousand of length (25,000 E-W), and the ten thousand of breadth (10,000 N-S), shall also the Levites, the ministers of the house, have for themselves, for a possession for twenty chambers.

6 And ye shall appoint the possession of the city five thousand broad (5,000 N-S), and five and twenty thousand long (25,000 E-W), over against the oblation of the holy portion: it shall be for the whole house of Israel.

7 And a portion shall be for the prince on the one side and on the other side of the oblation of the holy portion, and of the possession of the city, before the oblation of the holy portion, and before the possession of the city, from the west side westward, and from the east side eastward: and the length shall be over against one of the portions, from the west border unto the east border. 8 In the land shall be his possession in Israel: and my princes shall no more oppress my people; and the rest of the land shall they give to the house of Israel according to their tribes.

So, we have a definite place where He shall live as well as where He shall "work" (reign) in the Temple.

[Retrobyter]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:02 AM, Josheb said:

...

Has the earthly-kingdom model been thought through that far and what those answers mean theologically when measure by whole scripture? 

...

Hi, Josheb.

(Part 12)

Sure! He will LITERALLY be upon this earth, reigning from NEW allotments of land within the Land of Israel, and will be in a newly constructed Temple building.

I would advise anyone who would tend to discount the prophecies of the Old Testament, the TANAKH, that one would be wise to consider how YHWH God and His Messiah will react to such anti-Messiah behavior.

[Retrobyter]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:02 AM, Josheb said:

...

Because there is a lot to potentially discussed relevant to this op . Much with which I probably will not agree. Some good insights and comments but much of it, imo, is not read through the eyes of the newer revelation. At any rate, I appreciate the additional content and your own effort to review your own words. I'm doing the same but I don't have a lot of time for a more thorough examination. I'm encouraged you're still mindful. I'll try not to be too critical . 

Hi, Josheb.

(Part 13)

Thank you for your kindness and good insights, as well.

Going back to the part about Israel not being mentioned much in Revelation, when one considers that YHWH God's and His Messiah's Kingdom will be stationed in Israel, from the capital city, Yerushalayim, one can find it wherever Yochanan (John) talked about the Kingdom.

Revelation 11: says,

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (YHWH God), and of his Christ (His Messiah, Yeshua`); and he shall reign for ever and ever."

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven (Greek: enoigee ho naos tou Theou ho en too ouranoo = "was-opened-upward the temple of-the God the-one in the sky"), and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The Temple's roof was opened to (upward+in) the sky, and all these things were seen and heard. In Revelation 12, the first 6 verses are there to "identify the players." Then, we read,

Revelation 12:7-12 (KJV)

7 And there was war in heaven (in the sky): Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven (in the sky). 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,

"Now is come salvation (rescue), and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ (His Messiah): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time!"

This is when the Messiah's Kingdom begins; however, for a while, He will be fighting His enemies and reclaiming His Land.

In Revelation 14 we read,

Revelation 14:1-5 (KJV)

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This is not a scene from "Heaven"; HaKeves Elohiym (The Lamb of God) shall be literally standing on Mount Zion! That's a very real mountain right there in Jerusalem! God's throne is found there, too!

We also read,

Revelation 14:17-20 (KJV)

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying,

"Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe."

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

In Revelation 15:8 we read,

Revelation 15:8 (KJV)

8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Which implies that otherwise, people (priests) were able to enter into the Temple.

Revelation 16:16 (KJV)

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

This last word is the Greek words "Har Magedoon," a transliteration of the Hebrew words "Har Megiddown" meaning "Mountain of Megiddo," which is a lookout over a pass in the mountains 30 kilometers southeast of Haifa, today called "Tel Megiddo".

It's the look out over the highway that runs north to south through the mountains from the Plain of Jezreel, a natural staging area for armies to gather and regroup.

After a brief introduction to the players again, we read,

Revelation 17:9-14 (KJV)

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Then, after a look of triumph over Babylon the Great, we read,

Revelation 19:1-21 (KJV)

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying,

"Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

3 And again they said,

"Alleluia (Greek transliteration of the Hebrew phrase, "Hallelu-Yah" meaning "Praise YHWH"). And her smoke rose up for ever and ever."

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying,

"Amen; Alleluia."

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying,

"Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great."

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying,

"Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me,

"Write, 'Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.'"

And he saith unto me,

"These are the true sayings of God."

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me,

"See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

11 And I saw heaven opened (I saw the sky opened), and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called "Faithful (Trustworthy)" and "True," and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called "The Word of God." 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven (in mid-sky),

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant (the rest) were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Things happen fairly quickly from Revelation 11 to Revelation 19, and all that while, YHWH God and His Messiah are reigning right here, on this earth, in Jerusalem!

So, when we get to Revelation 20, the Thousand Years (the Millennium) are merely the 1,000 years that haSatan is locked up and thrown into the abussos, the Abyss, the pit with "no bottom." It's not about God or His Messiah reigning; it's about His co-rulers, His subordinate kings reigning with Him before haSatan is freed.

YHWH God's and Yeshua`s Israel is in Revelation!

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

God promised them life if they obeyed. He also promised them death if they did not obey. God patiently and repeatedly admonished and brought them back, but eventually He'd had enough. 

 

Jeremiah 3:1-25
"God says, "If a husband divorces his wife And she goes from him And belongs to another man, Will he still return to her? Will not that land be completely polluted? But you are a harlot with many lovers; Yet you turn to Me," declares the LORD............. Then the LORD said to me in the days of Josiah the king, 'Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there.  I thought, 'After she has done all these things she will return to Me'; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.  And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.  Because of the lightness of her harlotry, she polluted the land and committed adultery with stones and trees.  Yet in spite of all this her treacherous sister Judah did not return to Me with all her heart, but rather in deception,' declares the LORD................ 'Surely in the LORD our God Is the salvation of Israel.  "But the shameful thing has consumed the labor of our fathers since our youth, their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.  "Let us lie down in our shame, and let our humiliation cover us; for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even to this day. And we have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.'"

Despite the plea to repent and return they did not and this is how God left it. 

Jeremiah 31:27-34, 37
"'Behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast.  As I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant," declares the LORD.  In those days they will not say again, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge.' But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.  Behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,  not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,' declares the LORD.  'But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.  They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,' declares the LORD, 'for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more...... Thus says the LORD, If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,' declares the LORD.'"

 

God kept His promises. He kept His promise of land. He even allowed them a king when He had expressly told them "No." God kept His promise of a redeemer. God also kept His promise of destruction. God was faithful and they were not. God declared Israel covenant breakers and divorced them. The God who hated divorce divorced His chosen people as harlots. covenant-breaking harlots and chose another to whom He gave a new covenant........ grafting them into an already existing tree that is Israel. For not all Israel is Israel. The Israel of God is Christ crucified and resurrected, not a blood-line of covenant-breaking harlotrously sinful human beings that the divorce-hating God divorced. 

 

Hosea 11:1
"When Israel was a youth I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son."

Matthew 2:14-15
"So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt.  He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 'Out of Egypt I called My son.'"

 

According to Matthew, Jesus is the Israel of God. 

Israel thought they were special.

They were not. 

They are not. 

No eschatology in Christianity thought they were relevant in any way until John Darby showed up. Whether you got your view from Darby or not it is not a view of scripture ANYONE in Christianity has held until recent times and it can only be arrived at through a highly eisegetic inferential reading of the scriptures. This is important, Roy, because when you complain about my interpreting things and all you've done is offer another interpretation what you've done is frame the conversation in terms of two competing interpretations..... 

...neither of which may be true. 

And the plain fact in hundreds of my posts is that I do very little interpretation. Way less than you. I take scripture as written. When I pair verses or passages together I do so because the scriptures themselves do so, not based on any pre-existing eschatology, especially not one invented in the 19th century. So it should be understood by framing the discussion(s) in terms of competing interpretations all you've done is undermine your own view! Instead of competing interpretations we shoul be pursuing.... 

...the truth! 

The objective truth as scripture asserts it, not as humans interpret it, especially not any eisegetically inferential interpretation. 

 

 

God kept His promises. He kept His promise of land. He even permitted them an earthly king when He was their King. He kept His promise of a redeemer and He kept His promise of divorce and He kept His promise of a new covenant given to a people He grafted in. 

The promise of a millennium was not made to Israel. The book of Revelation was written to Christians, not Jews. 

 

Hi, Josheb.

Let me ask you 2 simple questions:

What do you think of the Zionist Movement and the re-birth of Israel?

Was that of God or was it something else?

[Retrobyter]

On 11/22/2021 at 2:20 PM, Josheb said:

Zionism from the Jewish pov is completely understandable. They deny the New Testament and Jesus as the prophesied Messiah. This is often a point Christian Zionists fail to consider when agreeing with Jewish Zionism. There's a world of difference between the two (no pun intended). Zionism, therefore is completely misguided, but as the root of our faith in Christ and the only democracy in the Middle East I am a supporter of the restoration of the state of Israel. 

Hi, Josheb.

I thank God for the "misguided" Christian Zionists in the 1930s and 1940s. Have you ever read the Zion Legacy Books by Bodie and Brock Thoene? The struggles they had in the early 1940s to make a path back to the Land for the homeless Jewish populations, from all over Europe and Russia were nothing if not God-protected!

Since the Balfour Declaration, Great Britain was a "protector" of the Jews trying to get home, but they were also bound by their agreements with the failed remnants of the Ottoman Empire at the time. With one hand tied behind their backs, and struggles by the Jews, often in secrecy, they were hiding as often from the Brits as they were hiding from the Arabs!

It was not an easy road back to their Land, and in many ways, it still isn't, because the restoration was incomplete. They still have an Arab control over the Temple mount; they still have a population that was brought in by the Jordanian (Transjordanian) mandate of the British (the "Palestinians," who didn't migrate to the area until Jordan learned that there was Jewish interest in the Land again). The Old City of Jerusalem is still divided in four sections: The Armenian Quarter, the Christian Quarter, the Arabic Quarter, and the Jewish Quarter. And, of course, the Arabic Quarter is where the Dome of the Rock is found. It was a particularly dangerous time for them. The Jordanian Mufti was in charge of Jerusalem, and the Arabs and Hitler's Nazis were colaborators during the War.

The miracles of the 6-Day War, and the War for Jewish Independence are two such miraculous periods.

My grandmother used to tell me the story about how one of our relatives took the story of Gideon tying the foxes' tails together around torches and setting them loose in the fields to destroy the enemy's crops, and he applied it to setting the fields afire to stop the tank invasions. She said, the tanks were blowing up all over the place like popcorn!

On 11/22/2021 at 2:20 PM, Josheb said:

But it is not a means of bring the Jews to salvation. That is a works-based soteriology! 

Well, yes, and .... no. It all depends on how one defines "salvation." That's why I say that it is better to stick to "justification by God" for what some call "personal salvation" and use "salvation" mostly for the biblical definition found in the prophecies. That is, "national rescue or deliverance."

On 11/22/2021 at 2:20 PM, Josheb said:

Israel has not been reborn. The modern geo-political nation-state of Israel bears very little resemblance to the Israel of the promises of God in the Old Testament. It is Israel in name only. It does not possess the land promised by God. It is not a theocracy. It certainly isn't a monarchy, not that I think it should be ). There's no temple. Israel has not been reborn. It might yet be but it is not now reborn. 

And any rebirth the requires the things just listed in order to bring the Jews to salvation is a works-based soteriology. That is not Christianity and it therefore cannot be a part of Christian eschatology. 

Israel has certainly been reborn, though not in the John 3 sense. As a nation, it is back again. It is populated by the Jewish people, children of Yhudah ("Judah"), a tribe (or three) of Israel. It has people as citizens who can trace their roots to Yhudah, Bin-Yamiyn (Benjamin), or Leviy (Levi), including Cohaniym (Priests). Indeed, it is likely that a person with a last name of "Cohn," "Cohan," "Kohn," or "Kahn" are people descendent from the Tribe of Leviy, in the priestly division.

These are the remnants of the Southern Kingdom or "Judea," that was extant in the First Advent.

The fact that the nation is still in its infancy explains it bearing "very little resemblance to the Israel of the promises of God in the Old Testament." Compound this fact with the fact that the Messiah hasn't yet returned (or come the first time, in their perspective), and one can see that their ignorance is largely due to the little influence that Christians have had on the Jews or on their country.

This is where the Messianic Jews come into the picture. They have a large, albeit secretive, presence there in Israel, and Jews are coming to understand that the Messiah Yeshua` is INDEED their long-expected Messiah! With the influence of the Messianic Jewish presence and the concerts that men like Paul Wilbur have had in Israel, the Jews are returning to their Messiah! And, this is all of God's Power and Wisdom.

Paul said, 

Romans 11:25-32 (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is [will be] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Isaiah 59:20-21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For ...

as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

It is our responsibility to show them mercy that they also may stop their unbelief and obtain God's mercy through us by learning trust in God for His righteousness!

We are COMMANDED to...

Psalm 122:6 (KJV)

6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

And, their peace will only come in strength when Sar Shalom, the Prince of Peace, returns!

Edited November 24, 2021 by Retrobyter

[Retrobyter]

On 11/22/2021 at 1:56 PM, Josheb said:

Again, there is an enormous inconsistency. Jesus reigns like the Queen of England but he does not reign all until he comes down to earth and sets up his millennium reign. 

Hi, Josheb.

What's "inconsistent" about that? Yeshua` will reign over all PEOPLE OF THE EARTH. He is never said to reign over all Creation; that's His FATHER'S job!

Starting out small like a grain of mustard seed, like a rock cut out of the mountain without hands, and like leaven among a large lump of dough, it will take time to "grow into a tree large enough for the birds of the air to nest" and "become a great mountain that fills the earth and "leavens the whole lump!" That should not come as a great surprise; that's what Paul said about it in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (the 1st Resurrection). 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power (the 2nd Resurrection).

25 For he (the Messiah) must reign, till he (God the Father) hath put all enemies under his (the Messiah's) feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. [But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest (obvious) that he (God the Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him (the Messiah).]

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (the Messiah), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God the Father) that put all things under him (the Messiah), that God may be all in all.

Again, to "put down all rule and all authority and power, subduing all things unto Him," will take time to perform!

This should not come as a surprise to anyone; after all, how did Yeshua` the Messiah approach His own people during the First Advent? He chose to come to them one-on-one for the most part, and crowds got in His way! He would heal people and then tell them not to tell others about it! And, Yeshua` NEVER went to the Gentiles during His lifetime! He was "not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24.)

So, when He arrives for His Second Advent, we should expect Him to approach Gentile nations one-by-one, as often as is possible and prudent to do so. Outside of His initial war tribunal (the judgment of the sheep and the goat nations in Matthew 25), I believe that He will offer His leadership to those nations that are most likely to accept His leadership first! Then, He will subdue the others, each in its turn, until all kings and governors call Him their King - their Emperor!

When all of His enemies have been subdued, it will be then that He also subdues death itself at the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire. (John 20:7-15.)

 

On 11/22/2021 at 1:56 PM, Josheb said:

Isaiah 66:1
"Thus says the LORD, "Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?"

Acts 7:48-49
"Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made by hands, as the prophet says, ‘Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest?"

This is true for God the Father, and before the Word was made flesh, it could be said about God the Word, as well. HOWEVER, when the Word was made flesh, He became limited by himself as a body. When the body was born, He was called "Yeshua` (Jesus)." His titles were He was "God's Messiah (Christ) to be Israel's King"; He was called "the King of the Jews, the "Son of God," and He was haKeves Elohiym ("the [Yearling] Lamb of God".)

Then, we could read of the Messiah,

Luke 2:40 (KJV)

40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

and,

Luke 2:52 (KJV)

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

We read,

John 1:35-39 (KJV)

35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith,

"Behold the Lamb of God!"

37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them,

"What seek ye?"

They said unto him,

"Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master [Teacher],) where dwellest thou?"

39 He saith unto them,

"Come and see."

They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

We also can read,

Matthew 21:18 (KJV)

18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.

And, we can also read,

John 4:1-6 (KJV)

1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee. 4 And he must needs go through Samaria. 5 Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.

We also read,

Matthew 14:22-23 (KJV)

22 And straightway Jesus constrained his disciples to get into a ship, and to go before him unto the other side, while he sent the multitudes away. 23 And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.

If one is understanding that "He was one with the Father" correctly, why did He have to pray? In this case, it certainly was not to show His disciples how to pray; He was alone!

This wasn't restricted to His earthly life, either. He was still a physical body in the resurrection:

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

And, when He was lifted off the earth, we read,

Acts 1:1-11 (KJV)

1 The former treatise [Luke] have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but

"wait for the promise of the Father, which," saith he, "ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,

"Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

7 And he said unto them,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (into the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (into the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (into the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (into the sky)."

So, Paul said,

Ephesians 1:15-23 (KJV)

15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus (Master Yeshua`), and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ (our Master, Yeshua`, the Messiah), the (God the) Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him (God the Father): 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his (God the Father's) mighty power, 20 Which he (God the Father) wrought (worked) in Christ (in the Messiah), when he (God the Father) raised him (Yeshua` the Messiah) from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places (Greek: en tois epouraniois = "in the places-above-the-sky"), 21 Far above all principality (literally), and power (literally), and might (literally), and dominion (literally), and every name that is named (literally), not only in this world (age), but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

There's more of the Father's deeds than of the Son's in these verses.

On 11/22/2021 at 1:56 PM, Josheb said:

What the prophet had prophesied was claimed in the NT to be fulfilled, and fulfilled in the resurrected and ascended Christ.

Not in their entirety! They were BEGUN to be fulfilled, but the whole was not "fulfilled" completely, nor in the "resurrected and ascended Messiah!" Be careful of the word "all." It is often limited in the context in which it is found.

On 11/22/2021 at 1:56 PM, Josheb said:

Psalm 110:1
"The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Acts 2:34-36
"For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'The LORD said to my Lord, 'sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.' Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified."

 

To be the Messiah is to be King. 

Hmmm.... not precisely. To be ANOINTED (which is what "Maashiyach" or "Messiah" means) does not mean that one is already KING, just as David was God's anointed one while King Saul was chasing Him all over the Land, trying to kill him! It wasn't until after Saul was dead, that David first became the King of the tribe of Yhudah (Judah) in Hevrown (Hebron), and then later became the King of Israel in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). While he never ceased being God's Anointed One, His time of being King was limited to his last 40 years.

Yeshua` Himself said He wouldn't be "the King" until He returned. (Matthew 25:31-40).

On 11/22/2021 at 1:56 PM, Josheb said:

I am not the one interpreting the OT to fit my views. I am believing what the New Testament writers were inspired by God to say about the promises first made to a rebellious, idolatrous, harlotrous covenant-breaking King rejecting and King murdering people God divorced. Jesus does need to come to earth to rule the earth; he rules it now. God does not need a millennium to bring Jews to salvation. That is a salvation by works. 

Nope. They aren't "saved" in the Millennium; they are justified by God as they come to Him for His mercy when they see the nail prints in His hands and feet and realize that their King was crucified for their sins, as  "haKeves Elohiym," the Lamb of God.

The Temple and the sacrifices of the Millennium are merely PICTURES of what God had already done for them on nailing the Son of God to the cross, the same as baptism doesn't "save" a person but is just a PICTURE of the death, burial, and the resurrection of Yeshua` the Messiah.

[Retrobyter]

On 11/22/2021 at 11:46 AM, Josheb said:

God promised them life if they obeyed. He also promised them death if they did not obey. God patiently and repeatedly admonished and brought them back, but eventually He'd had enough. 

Jeremiah 3:1-25
"God says, "If a husband divorces his wife And she goes from him And belongs to another man, Will he still return to her? Will not that land be completely polluted? But you are a harlot with many lovers; Yet you turn to Me," declares the LORD............. Then the LORD said to me in the days of Josiah the king, 'Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there.  I thought, 'After she has done all these things she will return to Me'; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.  And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.  Because of the lightness of her harlotry, she polluted the land and committed adultery with stones and trees.  Yet in spite of all this her treacherous sister Judah did not return to Me with all her heart, but rather in deception,' declares the LORD................ 'Surely in the LORD our God Is the salvation of Israel.  "But the shameful thing has consumed the labor of our fathers since our youth, their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.  "Let us lie down in our shame, and let our humiliation cover us; for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even to this day. And we have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.'"

Hi, Josheb.

There's some truth to this much, but don't forget the TIME element! Things can change after so much time. For instance, the first men (and women) who came out of Egypt died in the wilderness for their lack of faith in YHWH God and their disobedience.

But, the next generation was led by Joshua into the Land!

On 11/22/2021 at 11:46 AM, Josheb said:

Despite the plea to repent and return they did not and this is how God left it. 

Jeremiah 31:27-34, 37
"'Behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast.  As I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant," declares the LORD.  In those days they will not say again, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge.' But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.  Behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,  not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,' declares the LORD.  'But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.  They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,' declares the LORD, 'for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more...... Thus says the LORD, If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,' declares the LORD.'"

I am totally baffled by this thinking.

Read for understanding. This says the exact opposite to what you are claiming!

Let's break this down:

Jeremiah 31:27-34, 37
"'Behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast.

This is a GOOD thing! He is "sowing" like a farmer "the seed of man and the seed of beast (domestic animals) into the houses of Israel (the Northern Kingdom) and the house of Judah (the Southern Kingdom)! He's going to make them PROSPEROUS!

 As I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant," declares the LORD.

Again, it's a GOOD thing! He is going to protect them as they build and plant!

 In those days they will not say again, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge.' But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.  

This, too, is a better thing to hear: Instead of the children suffering for their fathers' sins, they will only suffer for their own sins! That means that things could change in a single generation!

'Behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,' declares the LORD.  'But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.'  

This, too, is a VERY good thing! They will have a NEW Covenant with the YHWH God, and so that one doesn't think this isn't the same people, they are listed: "with the house of Israel (the Northern Kingdom) and with the house of Judah (the Southern Kingdom)!

And, it will be an even better Covenant! He'll write His Law within them and on their heart!

They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,' declares the LORD, 'for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more...... 

This is AWESOME! Here He is telling them that He shall forgive their iniquity and He will never remember their sin again! THIS is Justification by God!

Thus says the LORD, If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,' declares the LORD.'"

And, this too, is an amazing promise! He's not saying that He WILL cast off all the offspring of Israel; He's saying exactly the OPPOSITE! He's saying that IF one can measure the vast expanse of the Universe and find the foundations of the earth (below the crust of the earth), then God will do that! These are IMPOSSIBLE things to do; therefore, God casting them off is JUST AS IMPOSSIBLE!

 

On 11/22/2021 at 11:46 AM, Josheb said:

God kept His promises. He kept His promise of land.

Not in all parts. First, their numbers were still quite small, so they may have been spread over the entire area, they were not yet filling the Land full. Furthermore, they were to possess the Land from the River Euphrates to the River of Egypt. Now, some think this to be a wadi that is on the eastern border of Egypt, but I rather think He was talking about the Nile!

On 11/22/2021 at 11:46 AM, Josheb said:

He even allowed them a king when He had expressly told them "No." God kept His promise of a redeemer. God also kept His promise of destruction. God was faithful and they were not. God declared Israel covenant breakers and divorced them. The God who hated divorce divorced His chosen people as harlots. covenant-breaking harlots and chose another to whom He gave a new covenant........ grafting them into an already existing tree that is Israel.

Wow. One must read the REST of the story of Hosea! God TAKES THEM BACK, just as Hosea took back His wife Gomer!

If His chosen people were divorced for good, then there wouldn't BE an "existing tree that is Israel!"

On 11/22/2021 at 11:46 AM, Josheb said:

For not all Israel is Israel. The Israel of God is Christ crucified and resurrected, not a blood-line of covenant-breaking harlotrously sinful human beings that the divorce-hating God divorced. 

 

Hosea 11:1
"When Israel was a youth I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son."

Matthew 2:14-15
"So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt.  He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 'Out of Egypt I called My son.'"

 

According to Matthew, Jesus is the Israel of God. 

You forgot the word "of" here. Yeshua is OF the Israel of God! Remember the lineages that were so carefully recorded in Matthew and Luke!

Please read the rest of Hoshea`s prophecy!

Hosea 3:1-5 (KJV)

1 Then said the LORD unto me,

"Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine."

2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley: 3 And I said unto her,

"Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee."

4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: 5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Hosea 13:9-14 (KJV)

9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.
10 I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?
11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.
12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid.
13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children.
14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Hosea 14:1-9 (KJV)

1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
3 Asshur (Assyria) shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.
7 They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon.
8 Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found.
9 Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.

On 11/22/2021 at 11:46 AM, Josheb said:

Israel thought they were special.

They were not. 

They are not. 

They were special to God and they still ARE special to God! And, SHAME on the head of anyone who contradicts the Scriptures to say otherwise!

On 11/22/2021 at 11:46 AM, Josheb said:

No eschatology in Christianity thought they were relevant in any way until John Darby showed up. Whether you got your view from Darby or not it is not a view of scripture ANYONE in Christianity has held until recent times and it can only be arrived at through a highly eisegetic inferential reading of the scriptures.

You're forgetting the early part of the First Century A.D. when the Apostles were still around and were teaching in the synagogues of the Land. When anti-Semitism reared its ugly head in the late First Century, it caused many of those who called themselves "Christian" to go astray.

On 11/22/2021 at 11:46 AM, Josheb said:

This is important, Roy, because when you complain about my interpreting things and all you've done is offer another interpretation what you've done is frame the conversation in terms of two competing interpretations..... 

...neither of which may be true. 

And the plain fact in hundreds of my posts is that I do very little interpretation. Way less than you. I take scripture as written. When I pair verses or passages together I do so because the scriptures themselves do so, not based on any pre-existing eschatology, especially not one invented in the 19th century. So it should be understood by framing the discussion(s) in terms of competing interpretations all you've done is undermine your own view! Instead of competing interpretations we should be pursuing.... 

...the truth! 

The objective truth as scripture asserts it, not as humans interpret it, especially not any eisegetically inferential interpretation. 

Well, when one reads the Scriptures wrongly, then it is not unexpected for them to come to wrong conclusions about "the objective truth."

Forgetting whole parts of a prophecy, as in Hosea above, would hardly be called "objective!" To the contrary, I find it obvious that one is ignoring the objective Truth of God's Word for his or her own agenda.

On 11/22/2021 at 11:46 AM, Josheb said:

God kept His promises. He kept His promise of land. He even permitted them an earthly king when He was their King. He kept His promise of a redeemer and He kept His promise of divorce and He kept His promise of a new covenant given to a people He grafted in. 

The promise of a millennium was not made to Israel. The book of Revelation was written to Christians, not Jews. 

Well, that's your belief. But, He KEEPS His promises, especially to His people, the children of Israel; He is a DYNAMIC God, not a STATIC God!