ERROR: That the Body of Christ becoming complete depends on a certain number of Gentiles.

[Marilyn C]

30 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Ephesians 4 was not written to nor for (all) Israel. Ephesians 4 was written by a regenerate convert to Christ to regenerate converts to Christ - both Jewish and Gentile - and it was written explicitly about the regenerate convert to Christ. There is absolutely no mention of Israel in Ephesians 4 and the only time Israel is mentioned in the entire book of Ephesians is in chapter 2 where the following is stated, 

 

Ephesians 2:11-13
"Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called 'Uncircumcision' by the so-called 'Circumcision,' which is performed in the flesh by human hands — remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.  But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ."

 

We are now included in the commonwealth of Israel. There's no distinction between the body of Christ and the commonwealth of Israel. 

It is not the Old Testament that defines "Israel"; it is the New. It is in the New that we discover the revelation not all Israel is Israel. It is in the New that we have revealed those belonging to Israel or those who live by faith, not faithfulness. It is in the New that we discover the Church is not separate but grafted in, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, the two are made one, the wall of enmity destroyed...... that God has reconciled both to Himself in one body on the cross. 

 

Ephesians 2:16-17
"And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh."

Hi Josheb,

Yes I agree that Eph. was written to the Body of Christ, (Jew & Gentile) however Eph. does reveal that God has eternal purposes in Christ, (Eph. 1: 10) and that is revealed in all of God`s word, not just Eph.

As to us being in the Commonwealth of Israel, that is not what is said there. We were excluded in relation to coming near God, but now we are in Christ we are brought `near by the blood of Christ.` 

There is a big distinction between the two - one a heavenly calling, the other an earthly calling. 

We are NOT grafted in to Israel, but the `root,` which is holy, nourishes and supports us. Israel can never do that. (Rom. 11: 16 - 18)

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

34 minutes ago, Josheb said:

The New Testament speaks of salvation using all three tenses: past, present, and future. We have been saved, we are saved and are being saved, and we will be saved. 

Conversion is instant. 
Salvation is a process. 

Our salvation is not complete this side of the grave. It is only in resurrection that we become incorruptible and immortal in spiritual bodies. There are literally billions of members in Christ's bodies; millions of hands, eyes, and feet. Not a single one of them perfect on this side of the grave. The only perfection we have is that of the head, which is Christ (in whom there is nether Jew nor Gentile ). 
 

Point of clarification: the waiting is not causal; it is correlative. My waiting or your waiting - our waiting is not what causes us to go to heaven. I have read/heard some say otherwise. 

I agree that salvation is a process. And that is an individual process.

I am addressing a corporate maturity of coming to the revelation of truths by the Holy Spirit over the centuries. 

The `eagerly waiting,` (Heb. 9: 28) is an expectant attitude that draws him to the Lord and helps him be concerned to help others in their journey. 

An earthly focus leads us to value earthly things whereas God`s word says -

`If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set you mind on things above, not on things on the earth.` (Col. 3: 1 & 2) 

 

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Administrators, healers, counselors, givers, servers, elders/overseers, writers/readers (most people in the first century were illiterate), givers, stewards, and more. Think about all the people involved in making a local congregation function. Not a single one of them can or should be manifested in the flesh; every single one of them a provision of Christ to and for his body. 

And for future reference: few if any of the lists in the Bible are exhaustive. The works of flesh are not limited to fifteen conditions any more than the fruit of the Spirit is limited to nine. Be wary of teachers/preachers who take lists to be exhaustive. Take note also of teachers/preachers who teach every believer has one of the "five-fold ministries" because the text itself plainly, explicitly states SOME, not all, were given.  

 

Ephesians 4:11-12
"And he gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ...." 

 

Some, not all. Many sheep, few shepherds. The beginning of chapter 4 is about the "vertical" relationship between leaders and the rest of the body and the latter portion of the chapter is about "horizontal" or peer-oriented relationships. Note also that there is nothing in the passage limiting a person to just one role, not to one role in perpetuity. Paul was an apostle. He was also the other four. We might assume all apostles inhabited all the roles mentioned but there are at least two dozen apostles mentioned in the NT and only a few were cited as prophets and pastors. Some have been given the "five-fold ministry" "test" and been led to believe that is their "ministry" and that is who they are an what they do, having their place in the body defined by a (man-made) test. 

 

James 3:1
"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment."

 

The developer of that test should have taken that verse more seriously.

 

Hi Josheb,

I wasn`t disagreeing with you, just wanted to hear what you thought. And so, thank you for quite a detailed reply. 

I do agree that there are many ministries in the Body of Christ and that of the 5 mentioned they can themselves hold more than one office. 

Thanks again, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

That is in fact what the verse plainly states. The contrast is plain: formerly excluded, now brought near. Both reconciled in one body on the cross. Fellow citizens with the hagion, the holy ones set apart by God - the holy ones set apart by God that includes the prophets (Old Testament) and the apostles (New Testament), with Christ as the cornerstone. 

Get out your Bible and look it up. I provided the scripture. I provided links to the Greek, the Strong's, the comparative passages. I did not add to or subtract from the text one miniscule fraction of a bit. 

It is what is said there. 

Hi Josheb,

I do agree that Israel are called holy ones, as is the Body of Christ. And in the Body we know, and agree that there is not division, Jew, or Gentile etc...

However I do not agree that the OT saints have the same inheritance as the Body of Christ. They have been promised the city, (Heb. 11: 16) while those in the Body of Christ have been promised to sit with the Lord on His throne in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21)

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

I am addressing the op. The word of Christ defines the body of Christ and its completeness thereof. 

And as I see what I started with refers to the complete Body of Christ come to the `unity of faith` as Eph. 4, shows, giving us more detail.

Now what do you see as the `unity of faith?` Care to share?

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

No there is not.

The Israel into which we are grafted is not bloodline nor geo-political nation-state Israel. The Israel into which we are grafted is Christ.

Jesus is Israel! 

 

Hosea 11:1
"When Israel was a youth I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son."

Matthew 2:15
"He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 'Out of Egypt I called My son.'"

 

I did not invent that connection; God did. I did not invent that identity; God did that. Through the inspired Matthew God said God's Son, Jesus, is Israel. The Jews would not have understood that at Exodus 4:22. They would not have understood it from Hosea, either. They would have wrongly understood that to be about their blood-line or (later) their national status. It is not until the newer revelation that which was previously veiled to the never-perceiving and never-understanding was made known to those in whom the Spirit of the Most High dwells. This is why I say...

 

... stop Judaizing Christianity! 

 

Not all Israel is Israel. 

And, again, I remind everyone that what Paul is writing about in Romans 11 is explicitly said to occur "at the present time"! None of it is 21st century events. 

 

Romans 11:17-24
"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.  You will say then, 'Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.'  Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.  Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise, you also will be cut off.  And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.  For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?"

 

We are in fact grafted into the tree, not the root of the tree. We are a branch; they are the already-existing branches of the cultivated tree. Christ is the root. We are partakers with them of the root of the olive tree. Those from Israel who believe remain the tree into which we are grafted. Those who do not believe get cut out (and burned up) unless they believe, at which point they can be grafted in again.

I own a small orchard. branches are never grafted to the root. Doing so can kill a tree. Most trees you by at a nursery are trunks grafted into a root different that the rest of the tree; a root that is heartier than the rest of the tree. When planted the root must be thoroughly buried because it is not then shoots of the root, the original tree from which the root was taken, grow up instead of the tree and the tree can die if overtaken by the tree that grows from the root. I'm sure other posters here who own orchards will confirm this (or it can easily be looked up online ). 

Hi Josheb,

Now we know that scripture has first a local and for the prophet`s time and secondly that which was predictive of the divine purpose in the future.

Israel was called God`s son as seen by the context of Hosea 11, and then we know from Matt. 2: 15 that it was also foretelling of Christ, God`s Son.

`the root is holy....and you ...were grafted in among them and with them become partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree....remember that you do not support the root, but the root support you.` (Rm. 11: 16 - 18)

The focus is on the `root,` there, as well as the type of tree, which we agree is Christ.

It would be good to have an orchard. Than you for those details. I do remember that happened with a lemon tree my parents added to.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Hi Marilyn. Short answer here. The scriptures are everywhere regarding God's elect. If God chose a people for Himself that means that there is a prescribed amount that will come into the body. The fullness or completeness comes when the last person ordained to eternal life  (Acts 13:48)  becomes saved. At that point there is no longer the need for this sinful wretched earth to continue, and it could be a matter of seconds before Christ comes for His church or  assembly of the firstborn, " which are written in heaven" ( Heb.12:23).

 

Hi Walter,

Some points I agree and some not. 

God has purposes and His timeline and it does NOT depend on a certain number of people being saved. That would make God dependent on mankind. God is about His business and that is to have all rulership under Christ. And that involves every realm in His great kingdom. 

Each rulership is in an appointed time and then God moves on to the next rulership to come under Christ. 

If it was all a matter of numbers God could have sorted it all out just after Adam and Eve and then humanity would go on without all the horror of the ages.

Marilyn.

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi AdHoc,

I would appreciate your thoughts too on what I have outlined to Josheb.

regards, Marilyn. 

Hi and good evening (down-under),

12 hours have passed and much has been written since your above request. But it is a crucial subject and I would like to comment. I'll comment on the main points raised, that is; (i) the maturity of the Church, (ii) the Commonwealth of Israel, and (iii) Israel itself. I will do point (i) only this round.

(i) The Church as a corporate entity, fulfills four purposes. It is (i) the Bride / Wife of Christ, (ii) it is God's testimony for the ages, (iii) it is God's House on earth, and (iv) it is an Instrument of Government in God's Kingdom on earth. Had Adam and Eve not fallen, these four goals would have been quickly realized by the eating of the Tree of Life. God's divine nature would have been added to a perfect human, and this man, in total dependence and obedience to God, would have been a "help meet" which exuded God's ways, been a holy place for God to dwell with His people and His creature, and it would have subdued and brought all of the earth under God's rule. But this did not happen.

So God starts a work to first raise up a corporate man from the doomed rest of men, and then rid the scene of the consequences of man's rebellion. Then, taking the chosen group, God does a work of changing them from marred sinners to a holy and righteous people (Rom.8:29). Then, when God changes the world's government from mere men to the Church, He resurrects His people (or changes those still living) so that their bodies conform to the rigors of a 100% righteous government. There is one hook in all this.

The greatest test facing God is that, having made man in His likeness and image, man has a free will. And because of the damage done by the fall, man always tends to move away from God (Rom.7:14-24, Gal.5:17). Even when God supplies all the resources, man inherently rebels. So to encourage His Church to embrace and apply the resources, God sets a reward and a loss before His Church to be administered at the end of the age of the Gentiles. That is, every member of the House(hold) of God must give account of their SERVANTHOOD. This very wise way of God is to encourage the individual saint to play his part in this transforming/sanctifying process. And his part is simple but brutal. The saint is to refuse the demands of his body and deny the demands of his soul for the sake of God's things.

The result though of this restrictive way is glorious. God promises the self-denying saint the following rewards if he/she is mature by their death, or in the case of the living, the rapture. The end of the age is a harvest and the saint is judged after rapture on their works after conversion. God sets aside the first one thousand years of His everlasting Kingdom on earth for three things

1. The diligent saints form a representative Bride and are allowed into the joyous and prestigious Wedding Feast of Jesus, most famous of Men, blessed of the Father and glorious Sovereign of the whole earth. A wedding feast that puts the sum of all previous royal wedding feasts into the shadows, for its pomp and prestige are prepared by none other than Jehovah
2. The diligent saints will form God's earthly part of a heavenly army to join Him in the slaughter of Armageddon. Just as they have "overcome" during their lifetimes, it will be given to them to shed the blood of God's enemies personally.
3. The diligent saints will be named co-kings with Jesus Christ to rule a city, or cities of the Nations (Lk.19:17-19). They will be glorious kings having a greater glory than Solomon and will join Christ is ruling the Nations with a rod of iron for the first 1,000 years of Christ's Kingdom

Those who did cooperate with God to their loss, and those who did seek out an intimate relationship with Christ their Lover and coming Bridegroom, will enjoy God's approval, high position and Christ's attentions for 1,000 years. Those who fall short, those who loved themselves too much to take up their crosses daily and deny their souls, those who were not interested in a close intimate walk with Jesus, those who did not do the will and instructions of God, and those who thought everything was for free will,

1. Not lose their rebirth and divine life, but find themselves put out from the presence of Christ for 1,000 years
2. Not lose their salvation, but be in disgrace before Christ, men and angels for 1,000 years
3. Be touched by "perdition" (exquisite lack of well-being - lit. Gk.) for 1,000 years
4. Continue their training to maturity, NOT in the age of grace, but in the age of the "rule of the rod of iron"
5. Have such regret that they will weep and gnash their teeth in bitterness for 1,000 years.

This chastisement, like Hebrews 12 says, is to produce righteousness for wayward sons whose father loves them. After 1,000 years of loss and chastisement, they too will be mature. And so, at the end of the millennium, God can renew the creature and present the COMPLETE and MATURE and GLORIOUS Bride He wanted for His Son Jesus (Rev,21 & 22).

I just summarized the New Testament. I'm sure there will be questions and objections. If not, I will comment on the "commonwealth" next.

[Dennis1209]

The way I look at it: There is a set time for the age of Grace, the church age, before the Rapture. When that time comes, there will be a last person to be saved before the Tribulation. 

Fulness of the Gentiles: Is a little complex in my thinking. When is the "fulness of the Gentiles" complete? 

When the Tribulation begins in Revelation chapter 6, all the focus is shifted to Israel, Daniels 70th week, and the time of Jacob's trouble. Yet the Antichrist and Gentile world is still running the show.

So, is the fulness of the Gentiles (all believers) finished at the Rapture, or at the second coming of the Lord? I'm not sure?

[angels4u]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

The way I look at it: There is a set time for the age of Grace, the church age, before the Rapture. When that time comes, there will be a last person to be saved before the Tribulation. 

Fulness of the Gentiles: Is a little complex in my thinking. When is the "fulness of the Gentiles" complete? 

When the Tribulation begins in Revelation chapter 6, all the focus is shifted to Israel, Daniels 70th week, and the time of Jacob's trouble. Yet the Antichrist and Gentile world is still running the show.

So, is the fulness of the Gentiles (all believers) finished at the Rapture, or at the second coming of the Lord? I'm not sure?

Hi Dennis, You might find this article written by Jack Kinsella interesting :

 

Fullness of the Gentiles
By Jack Kinsella

By every measurable historical standard, the city of Jerusalem should have fallen into oblivion centuries ago. The city was destroyed in AD 70 by the Romans and its founders and traditional inhabitants were killed or fled into exile in foreign lands.

It has no natural wealth. It has no coastline. It sits inconveniently upon a mountain. It overlooks nothing of strategic military value.

It is on no ancient trade route. The King’s Highway of David’s time ran north and south through modern Jordan. Jerusalem was well off the beaten path — folks didn’t pass through Jerusalem on their way to somewhere else — Jerusalem was the end of the line.

Like other historical ‘end of the line’ cities, once its reason to exist was extinguished by the destruction of its native population, so should its history.

The once-great city of Babylon, for example, is little more than a living museum, devoid of influence or even much interest outside scholarly circles.

Over the centuries, it has been fought over by the Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks, Ptolemies, Seleucids, Romans, Byzantines, Persians, Arabs, Seljuks, Crusaders, Mongols, Mamelukes, by the Turks, the British, Jordan and most recently, by those Jordanians who became ‘Palestinians’ after Jordan’s defeat in the 1967 War.

Jerusalem remains one of the most contested cities on earth to this day. That list doesn’t include the approximately two hundred million Islamic fundamentalists or Islamic states like Iran or Saudi Arabia who have conducted a decades-long shadow war to ‘liberate’ the city from Jewish control.

Despite two thousand years of war aimed at destroying the Jews and seizing their city, in this generation, the Jews again inhabit an undivided Jerusalem.

“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24)

Jesus’ sweeping prophecy concerning the future of city of Jerusalem and its inhabitants was fulfilled to the letter throughout history, including its restoration to Jewish hands. Note that its restoration signals the fulfillment of the ‘times of the Gentiles’.

The Apostle Paul called himself the ‘apostle of the Gentiles’ (Romans 11:13) but Paul had formerly been known as Saul of Tarsus, a Pharisee (lawyer) and Jewish religious leader. Paul explains that the Church is a ‘graft’ from the original tree (Judaism), saying,

“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” (Romans 11:25)

Here we find the same phraseology that was employed by Jesus concerning the ‘times of the Gentiles’. Jesus referred to the times of the Gentiles as being ‘fulfilled’. Paul speaks of the ‘fulness of the Gentiles’.

Paul says that, following the ‘fulness of the Gentiles’,

“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.” (Romans 11:27)

Paul notes that, during the Church Age, “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes,” but Paul cautions; “but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.”

Then Paul wraps it all together by saying, “For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” (Romans 11:29)

This is one of the great mysteries of Scripture. The Jews are enemies of the Gospel for ‘our sakes’. What does that mean?

Jesus taught that His mission was to come first to the Jews. When approached by the Samaritan woman begging Him to help her daughter, Jesus told her, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24)

To the Jews He prophesied, “I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.” (John 5:43)

If the Jews had accepted their Messiah at His First Advent, there would have been no Church Age and the Lord would have set up the Millennial Kingdom right then and there.

Jesus prophesied that because of their rejection of Him, “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” His prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem and the beginning of the ‘Times of the Gentiles.’

The usurper who comes in his own name and is received as the Messiah comes after the ‘fulness of the Gentiles’ is come in.

Jeremiah calls it the ‘Time of Jacob’s Trouble’ (Jeremiah 30:7). Jesus calls it the ‘Tribulation’ (Matthew 24:29). The prophet Daniel outlines the Tribulation’s six-fold purpose, from the perspective of Israel;

“(1) to finish the transgression, and (2) to make an end of sins, and (3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and (4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and (5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and (6) to anoint the most Holy.” (Daniel 9:24)

Assessment

Let’s connect the dots and see how the Big Picture develops here. Jesus said that the restoration of Jerusalem to Jewish control would signal that the ‘fulness of the Gentiles be come in’.

Jesus said of the generation on earth at that time, “This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.” (Luke 21:32)

Paul says that the Jews, as an institution, rejected Jesus so that the Gentiles would have a chance at salvation. He said that God would not return His attention to Israel until ‘the fulness of the Gentiles be come in’. The ‘fulness of the Gentiles’ indicates a finite number — a ‘quota’, so to speak — of Gentiles who will come to know Christ during the Church Age.

Once that quota — the Church Age ‘elect’ have been gathered, God returns His attention to the Jews, “And so all Israel shall be saved” — because “the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”

That Jesus offered salvation first to Israel is confirmed by His own Words as recorded by John.

The ‘Time of Jacob’s Trouble’ is so-called because of its purpose as outlined by Daniel — the six-fold purpose that culminates with the ‘anointment of the most Holy’ as Messiah and the beginning of the Millennial Reign from Jerusalem.

Note how clearly the two Dispensations are divided. Until the Crucifixion, God’s attention was focused on Israel. Until the ‘fulness of the Gentiles be come in’ God’s attention is focused on the Church.

The Church, as the ‘Bride of Christ’ serves no role in Daniel’s six-point outline for the Tribulation Period. Take another look at Daniel 9:24 before we go on.

The transgression was finished at the Cross. The Blood of Christ takes away all sin. (1st John 1:7) His death and resurrection reconciled the Church to God.

“And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” (2nd Corinthians 5:18-19)

To the saved believer reconciled to God by the Blood of Christ, ‘everlasting righteousness’ is a gift of grace through faith, ‘sealing’ the vision and prophecy of the Old Covenant and introducing the New Covenant with the Church.

The believer knows that Jesus is ALREADY anointed King of King and Lord of Lords and is awaiting His return at the end of the Church Age.

There is no role for the Church Age during the Time of Jacob’s Trouble — it doesn’t begin until after the ‘fulness of the Gentiles’ is come in. And this is the generation in which Jerusalem was recovered from Gentile control, signaling the approach of the fullness of the Gentiles’.

The Tribulation serves two main purposes; the first is the judgment of God on a Christ-rejecting world. The second is the nation redemption of Israel. By definition, Church-Age believers have NOT rejected Christ, and need no further redemption.

The Bible says that, before the unfolding of the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, there will come an ingathering of Church Age believers:

“Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Revelation 3:10)

Jerusalem is the signal that this is the generation that will see the ‘fulness of the Gentiles be come in’. It was of that generation that Paul promised:

“For this we say unto you BY THE WORD OF THE LORD, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall…be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1st Thessalonians 4:15,17b)

The time is short. Don’t let anybody steal your victory. Jesus is coming soon for His Church, and “THEN shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.” (2nd Thessalonians 2:8)

Get excited! The time is short, the fulness of the Gentiles is at hand; the Lord IS coming soon!

“Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (2nd Thessalonians 4:18)Fullness of the Gentiles - Rapture Forums