Are these 2300 or 1150 days in Daniel 8:14

[adamjedgar]

On 11/26/2021 at 6:49 PM, Charlie744 said:

I agree with you on the 457 as the starting point for the 70 weeks prophesy. But the one coming out of the 4 ‘TERRITORIES’, not kingdoms is the beast of papal Rome. Pagan Rome is the iron legs of the chapter 2 metal man image- there is no space between Greece, the 3rd kingdom and pagan Rome, the 4th kingdom. This is just one reason why God used a metal man to symbolize the coming kingdoms- so we could not insert another kingdom or ruler between them. It keeps us from miss interpreting the verses. 

The ‘link’ is not the ‘little horn’ because he is not shown on chapter 2, and the book of Daniel is not about him. He is just a villain in all of this. The ‘link’ can be no one but the Messiah. If you look for Him in these verses you will find Him.

Try and leave ALL the history books from you- they will ONLY steer you away from the correct interpretation. ALL interpretations can be found in Daniel itself and the books of the Tankh like Jeremiah and Ezekiel. The SDA have so much right but they personalized the 2,300 days. They could not figure it out so they brought the prophecy down to a 6 foot level (man’s level), and made it about them. They calculated the second coming of Jesus using the 2300 days and converted it to years and determined He must be coming back in 1844. And they were the only ones able to interpret this correctly and were the new chosen people to usher in the second coming. God would punish them as He did David for calculating His return- He warned us not to do this. Rather than learn from their error, they doubled down and recalculated the date for the year zero AND now state He would cleanse the Sanctuary in heaven and not yet return to earth- but they still were the chosen people (despite the Bible teaching there is neither Jew nor Greek and ALL fall short). They continue to set themselves up above all other denominations - God despises pride And although they have interpreted so much of Daniel correctly (more than any other group), God has kept His foot on their neck for trying to lift themselves above others (my opinion found while interpreting Daniel). The 2300 days are about Jesus. 

Charlie

I cannot ignore history...i dont think any christian should. In my own training as a school teacher many years ago, history in education, history in Design and Technology, history in the Philosophy of Christian education were all subjects i was required to study. there is good reason for this...

The world around us is best explained from the perspective of the Bible, however, to say that history and the Bible are at odds with each other is in my opinion a flawed approach. We cannot look forward without also looking back, God demonstrated that throughout the entire Bible narrative.

I dont think its right to say the SDA's personalised the 2300 day/year idea...that was the Millerites not the SDA's. The actual reality is that the SDA's did not obtain this doctrine until later and in the early days the young SDA denomination leadership actually resisted it.

Having said that, i think that the reality is, the groups that came out of the Millerite movement of 1844 such as SDA's, Jehovah's Witnesses, Bahai's etc...they all knew that something important had happened, however, it was a matter of figuring out what!

Clearly the idea that the end of the world was the "what" is mistaken, however, something significant did happen...I do not personally believe that its just a simple arival of new denominations. Obviously God has through the ages raised up individuals and groups to further his message, and i think that is certainly part of the 1844 event, however, the question is, what was it that God raised up the group/s to do specifically?

Once upon a time it was claimed the 3 angels message was the only message.

Here is the thing, in reference to your statement about God punishing those who promote such doctrines i ask you this...

Can you provide examples of doctrines that are gained specifically from bible texts where God has punished anyone? I would be interested in discussing those because to my understanding Jesus never earbashed anyone for furthering His work. In the bible, in almost every situation i can think of where a false religion is mentioned or illustrated, that religion has aimed to denegrate the one true God and lead people away from him. I do not see any church that genuinely promotes the true God, his plan of salvation, and the work of Jesus as being worthy of any punishment at the judgement.

 

I can find examples of so called religions where i think God will punish those in said religions who know what they are doing is against the wishes of the Almighty...almost always we can isolate such individuals because of their fruits or actions. I think these are highlighted by our Lord in Mark 7

 

18“Are you still so dull?” He asked. “Do you not understand? Nothing that enters a man from the outside can defile him, 19because it does not enter his heart, but it goes into the stomach and then is eliminated.” (Thus all foods are clean.)i

20He continued: “What comes out of a man, that is what defiles him. 21For from within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,j 22greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. 23All these evils come from within, and these are what defile a man.”

 

I do not believe that SDA church is the one true church...I dont think that the SDA denomination hierarchy believe that either to be honest. My understanding from many Christians in a number of denominations that i have had some dealings with is that the true church has nothing to do with denominations...Jesus did not say such things nor did the apostles.

Jesus i think illustrates the one true church beautifully when he started his recruitment of disciples in Matthew 4:19 with the words "come follow me"! (that is the one true church...those who head that call)

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

I cannot ignore history...i dont think any christian should. In my own training as a school teacher many years ago, history in education, history in Design and Technology, history in the Philosophy of Christian education were all subjects i was required to study. there is good reason for this...

The world around us is best explained from the perspective of the Bible, however, to say that history and the Bible are at odds with each other is in my opinion a flawed approach. We cannot look forward without also looking back, God demonstrated that throughout the entire Bible narrative.

First, this is a wonderful response and I apologize if I generalized or provided an opinion that was severely truncated.  All of the subjects have multiple sub-subjects and it would take years to properly communicate all one's thoughts for each...

I assure you I have an appreciation for history but OUR history books are not inspired by God. We must agree our history books are flawed by many factors - lack of information, personal agendas, history is written by the victors not necessarily by what actually took place or the reasons behind the events. Most importantly, do you really believe our history books could be on par with God's Word? His Word is absolutely flawless and it makes no sense to think we could or should compare it to our history books for any reason. That is exactly why Daniel has yet to be interpreted - we (man) have been testing it, comparing it, judging it to our understanding of OUR flawed record keeping. God wrote His Words in advance of them every taken place - and they are flawless. We look back and can not get it right!  Take Daniel, there are so many talented, brilliant academics, scholars and theologians since Origen and Justin Martyr, Augustine, and all the way to today's brilliant folks -  they do not share the same interpretations... Today's scholars have all of their notes and papers to consider as well as all the religious and secular history books for the past 2,000 years and still no consensus.   They are using the wrong approach - they are attempting to interpret Daniel by comparing it to our history books , and all the information just mentioned (historical approach), and then add to those interpretations another level of personal agendas, etc. The most notable being the RCC who have hijacked much of Daniel (especially 9:24 -27), and purposely redirected Daniel's prophecies of the coming Messiah all the way to Revelation. Completely corrupted Daniel and the Catholic and Protestant churches have accepted this circa 1520 new interpretation constructed by the Jesuits (Ribera or similar spelling).

Which brings me to the point I mentioned earlier. Daniel is written in the OT and to the Jews FIRST. If Paul and his fellow Jews would have been able to interpret Daniel they would certainly not have any secular sources to compare to.... God has given us ALL the information we need to interpret Daniel (within Daniel or the other books such as Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc.). Therefore, God would not have given the Jews the book of Daniel knowing it could or would not be interpreted correctly UNTIL we were able to compile our religious and secular history books some 2,000 years later. And we still can not do it because of the 'approach'....  we can not expect a different answer if we go down the same rabbit hole... 

 

 

3 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

I dont think its right to say the SDA's personalised the 2300 day/year idea...that was the Millerites not the SDA's. The actual reality is that the SDA's did not obtain this doctrine until later and in the early days the young SDA denomination leadership actually resisted it.

This is where I understand it might come across as 'too judgemental or harsh'. It was not meant to be but at the same time, everything in the OT and the NT is (to me)  quite clear: The ONLY people who were 'CHOSEN' by God were Abraham and his descendants - the Jews. NO ONE ELSE. God selected them to be His Priests on the earth to introduce and teach the One true God to the world. They failed miserably! However, NO OTHER GROUP OF PEOPLE could have come close to accomplishing what God wanted of them. God does not make mistakes - He chose these people above all others that would ever come upon the earth - He knew what He was doing... but they are still HUMAN, and subject to all the flaws and weaknesses as every other man on the planet.... but thank God He did not choose any other group.

The reason I mention this is because the SDA's DO believe they have been chosen to be the church that has the message for all Christians. And this is largely due (my opinion) because they believe the Sabbath, which is of course one of the 10 commandments must be obeyed - and I believe they are correct. They also believe (again, my experience), they are the only ones who have the correct interpretation of Daniel - 2,300 days being the MOST important issue in Daniel as compared to other denominations.

There two reasons are the basis for their belief they are 'chosen' to lead the Christian community to salvation - they have the right message / interpretation. Please do not get me wrong, this could be and is said about the RCC and almost any other Christian denomination - Mormons, JW, etc., THEY ALL BELIEVE THEY HAVE THE CORRECT INTERPRETATION AND WAY TO THE LORD.

I do not know anything much about the history of the SDA but I do know what I have seen and experienced. They have so much right! To me, they believe in two things; the Scripture and Jesus Christ. And from my viewpoint, this is exactly what the first century Christians would have looked like - Paul preaching the Scriptures to the pagan world and Jesus the Messiah.

But this does not mean the SDA has all their interpretations in order. Specifically, the 2,300 days is incorrect. This is where I meant they ' personalized' it... they made it about themselves - they were prideful in thinking they could determine the second coming.  I think Jesus Himself had something to say about attempting to predict the second coming.....But just as God has always been, He was merciful  - I imagine He understood just how much they wanted His second coming to be in 1844, He did not punish them. However, instead of the group coming to their senses and realizing their mistake was against God and not just a mathematical calculation error, they came right back and altered their date by one year and declared the Sanctuary would be cleansed in heaven instead of God coming down to earth. Now this is what I meant by God putting His foot on their necks - they have the right approach (they are doing what Jesus told them above most others in honoring the 10 commandments and believing He is our Lord and Saviour), but they put themselves above other Christians....  and remember, they should never feel they are above other Christian denomination because they keep the Sabbath - this is a requirement from God, they are not doing something special.... that they should feel it should elevate them above others (and I am sorry but I believe they do believe this and it has alienated them from other Christian denominations / people, and is the reason why they have not been allowed to grow as a church - sort of like Nebuchadnezzar who was 'cut down' and humbled....   

3 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

Having said that, i think that the reality is, the groups that came out of the Millerite movement of 1844 such as SDA's, Jehovah's Witnesses, Bahai's etc...they all knew that something important had happened, however, it was a matter of figuring out what!

Nothing important happened in 1844 except they did not realize how they disobeyed God in trying to predict His second coming. That date is just as important and valuable as any other prediction of the end of the world during the past 300 years. Throw it in with Nostradamus or the Mayans or Caycee, etc.  What they needed to do was figure out the 2300 days interpretation of Daniel as it APPLIED TO THE MESSIAH (His first coming), not His second coming. Look at all the mistakes they made: they ASSUMED the 2300 time period began at the SAME TIME  as the 70 weeks prophecy (457 BC). Second, they decided to interpret the 'mornings and evenings' days to years because of a day for a year principle that was found in Numbers and Ezekiel - if fact, they use this principle in almost every situation in Daniel where any sort of time reference is mentioned (that is crazy). Each author of the 66 books is not bound by 'a' principle found in an earlier book... they have their own message to deliver. It has to fit within the context of the writings. They also apply the Day - for - year principle to 'time, times and 1/2 times' - why? Same for 1290 and 1335 days - why? Then, they build a theology around that day for a year principle - ie., the 2300 days interpretation which generated the 1844 prediction.

3 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

Clearly the idea that the end of the world was the "what" is mistaken, however, something significant did happen...I do not personally believe that its just a simple arival of new denominations. Obviously God has through the ages raised up individuals and groups to further his message, and i think that is certainly part of the 1844 event, however, the question is, what was it that God raised up the group/s to do specifically?

Once again, God would never again choose a 'chosen' people. Now, there is neither Jew nor Greek, and there is only one mediator - Jesus the Messiah and He has sent His Holy Spirit to be our counselor. We have ALL the information now - we have the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit and Jesus our Messiah... we no longer need man to intercede for OUR SALVATION. That does not mean we do not still need teachers and theologians, pastors, etc. They help us understand His Words, but there are NO 'chosen' groups between Jesus and us.

3 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

3 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

Once upon a time it was claimed the 3 angels message was the only message.

Here is the thing, in reference to your statement about God punishing those who promote such doctrines i ask you this...

Can you provide examples of doctrines that are gained specifically from bible texts where God has punished anyone? I would be interested in discussing those because to my understanding Jesus never earbashed anyone for furthering His work. In the bible, in almost every situation i can think of where a false religion is mentioned or illustrated, that religion has aimed to denegrate the one true God and lead people away from him. I do not see any church that genuinely promotes the true God, his plan of salvation, and the work of Jesus as being worthy of any punishment at the judgement.

I would have to pass on this since it would certainly take time to research or provide you with a proper response. And as with every topic, each response will open up another sub-topic and so on... and we are already getting far from the original topic and may never get back there... The bible is full of situations where God would warn the Jews over and over again to come back or stop the idolatry, etc., only to find them continue to disobey - then, when enough is enough, He will punish them (70 years in Babylon). God hates pride!!!! And IF an individual or church attempts to elevate or separate themselves above others will get a reaction from God. I believe the SDA's have done this and still do promote they maybe one of the few if not the only Christian church that honors and keeps the Sabbath - even though it is a command and not something they bring to the table. The 2300 days in and off itself would never (my opinion) be thought of as an offense to God (never), because it is simply their interpretation. But it is what they have done WITH that interpretation that might offend God - distinguishing themselves above other Christian denominations by believing they have the correct interpretation along with keeping the Sabbath this elevating themselves. (Now, if one does not believe they are separating themselves or elevating them above others, then this opinion is worthless). 

 

3 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

3 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

 

I can find examples of so called religions where i think God will punish those in said religions who know what they are doing is against the wishes of the Almighty...almost always we can isolate such individuals because of their fruits or actions. I think these are highlighted by our Lord in Mark 7

 

18“Are you still so dull?” He asked. “Do you not understand? Nothing that enters a man from the outside can defile him, 19because it does not enter his heart, but it goes into the stomach and then is eliminated.” (Thus all foods are clean.)i

20He continued: “What comes out of a man, that is what defiles him. 21For from within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,j 22greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. 23All these evils come from within, and these are what defile a man.”

 

I do not believe that SDA church is the one true church...I dont think that the SDA denomination hierarchy believe that either to be honest. My understanding from many Christians in a number of denominations that i have had some dealings with is that the true church has nothing to do with denominations...Jesus did not say such things nor did the apostles.

Jesus i think illustrates the one true church beautifully when he started his recruitment of disciples in Matthew 4:19 with the words "come follow me"! (that is the one true church...those who head that call)

I totally agree with you... but man just wants to be in control and in power and wants others to follow their lead.... Jesus ensured that EACH ONE OF US MUST DECIDE WHO THEIR LORD AND SAVIOR IS AND EACH WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. His now demands and offers us a 'one on one' relationship with HIM... doesn't meant we should do away with churches or pastors, but when we meet Him, He will not accept a weekly attendance sheet from our church to secure salvation. 

Sorry for the long winded response... just kept going....  Hope to hear back and share thoughts, Charlie

[adamjedgar]

great answers Charlie and very insightful.

A couple of things we do differ on but all in all i think generally we both agree on most things above.

I think its probably a little incorrect that God has not allowed the SDA church to grow...its has more than 3 times the number of world wide members compared with JW church, and twice as many as Mormonism...I think its fair to say that God has indeed blessed the group.

I do agree that due to the apparent uniqueness of a few doctrines, it is unfortunate that the SDA movement has been labelled a cult (the bad type of cult), as some of these seemingly unique doctrines are not unique at all:

1. The name - which seems to indicate that its the only christian church which keeps sabbath...obviously a misunderstanding from those who know little about christianity i would imagine)

2. The state of the dead - SDA's believe that "the dead know nothing and have no further reward" until the second coming of Christ (for those who are saved),

3. The wicked do not see the second coming, they are raised after millenium

4. The Sanctuary Doctrine/Investigative Judgement of 1844

5. Vegetarianism

6. Tithing

7. No drinking of Alcohol

 

I found some interesting stuff that i would love to explore...it seems an incredible coincidence that the separation of church and state in Itally (the first time it ever happened) was during the reign of a pope elected in 1846 is close to 2300 years after 457 B.C (it misses out by 2 years). I think the war where papal army was first defeated happened in 1860, although the official invasion of Italy was about 10 years later. The rebellion that forced his initial exit and exile for a time from the Vatican happened in 1848.

 

Pope Pius IX

a turning point in the history of the Catholic Church. My guest David Kertzer is the author of the new book "The Pope Who Would Be King: The Exile Of Pius IX And The Emergence Of Modern Europe."

Pius became pope in 1846. He was the last pope to rule over the Papal States, which covered much of what is now Italy. There was no separation of church and state until a rebellion by Italian nationalists forced Pope Pius IX into exile, which led to the creation of modern Italy. After the pope returned from exile without the Papal States to rule over, he was confined to the Vatican, giving the Vatican a new significance. Pius also instituted the doctrine of papal infallibility. He saw freedom of speech in of the press as incompatible with Catholicism. https://www.npr.org/2018/04/24/605252936/why-pius-ix-might-be-the-most-important-pope-in-modern-church-history

Edited November 28, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Charlie744]

48 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

great answers Charlie and very insightful.

A couple of things we do differ on but all in all i think generally we both agree on most things above.

I think its probably a little incorrect that God has not allowed the SDA church to grow...its has more than 3 times the number of world wide members compared with JW church, and twice as many as Mormonism...I think its fair to say that God has indeed blessed the group.

I do agree that due to the apparent uniqueness of a few doctrines, it is unfortunate that the SDA movement has been labelled a cult (the bad type of cult), as some of these seemingly unique doctrines are not unique at all:

1. The name - which seems to indicate that its the only christian church which keeps sabbath...obviously a misunderstanding from those who know little about christianity i would imagine)

2. The state of the dead - SDA's believe that "the dead know nothing and have no further reward" until the second coming of Christ (for those who are saved),

3. The wicked do not see the second coming, they are raised after millenium

4. The Sanctuary Doctrine/Investigative Judgement of 1844

5. Vegetarianism

6. Tithing

7. No drinking of Alcohol

 

I found some interesting stuff that i would love to explore...it seems an incredible coincidence that the separation of church and state in Itally (the first time it ever happened) was during the reign of a pope elected in 1846 is close to 2300 years after 457 B.C (it misses out by 2 years). I think the war where papal army was first defeated happened in 1860, although the official invasion of Italy was about 10 years later. The rebellion that forced his initial exit and exile for a time from the Vatican happened in 1848.

 

Pope Pius IX

a turning point in the history of the Catholic Church. My guest David Kertzer is the author of the new book "The Pope Who Would Be King: The Exile Of Pius IX And The Emergence Of Modern Europe."

Pius became pope in 1846. He was the last pope to rule over the Papal States, which covered much of what is now Italy. There was no separation of church and state until a rebellion by Italian nationalists forced Pope Pius IX into exile, which led to the creation of modern Italy. After the pope returned from exile without the Papal States to rule over, he was confined to the Vatican, giving the Vatican a new significance. Pius also instituted the doctrine of papal infallibility. He saw freedom of speech in of the press as incompatible with Catholicism. https://www.npr.org/2018/04/24/605252936/why-pius-ix-might-be-the-most-important-pope-in-modern-church-history

You have got to stop writing these enjoyable thoughts... there are so many branches that come from this 2300 days discussion and they all are interesting.

 I will be stepping out soon but will do two things:

1) respond to this particular post,

2) respond to the 2300 days discussion and attempt to have you move away from interpreting the 2300 days (SDA) view, which is just one of the reasons I started studying Daniel, to interpreting the 2300 as it should only apply to the Messiah- after all, the Scriptures are about Him, not man or a Christian denomination

Charlie

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

great answers Charlie and very insightful.

A couple of things we do differ on but all in all i think generally we both agree on most things above.

I think its probably a little incorrect that God has not allowed the SDA church to grow...its has more than 3 times the number of world wide members compared with JW church, and twice as many as Mormonism...I think its fair to say that God has indeed blessed the group.

Well, I guess it is all relative.  In my opinion, and as mentioned earlier, they are the closest Christian group to what I would expect to  see if we were back in Paul's day and followed his teachings. Paul had two rules, if you will, he knew the Tanakh better than almost anyone. inside and out, and would teach to the gentile world. Second, he would preach Jesus the Messiah and show them how the Scriptures spoke of Him and His plan of salvation for mankind. That is it in a nutshell, and the SDA follow those two rules. You can not fault them or any other group for their interpretations - those of Daniel or Revelation. No one understands them, but they like all truly try to understand them. Conversely, the RCC also interprets the Scriptures but they corrupt and change them KNOWINGLY. But of course, God prophesied this would happen in Daniel 8 for they are surely the 'little horn'. But I believe they should have a following of folks in the hundreds of millions because they kept to these two rules. But...... they apparently have the worst marketing team on the planet , and or what I believe is they are holding themselves back by thinking / claiming they have the  right interpretations of Daniel and Revelation and are meant to show the rest of the Christian community the way to obey  the Lord is by keeping the Sabbath, etc.... (just my opinion, but it has become prideful in a way that I believe God may be saying.... hold on now!). 

2 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

I do agree that due to the apparent uniqueness of a few doctrines, it is unfortunate that the SDA movement has been labelled a cult (the bad type of cult), as some of these seemingly unique doctrines are not unique at all:

It is so easy to tarnish anyone or any group if you have the size or the money to do it... if they are a cult, what does that make the RCC? Mormons, JW?

2 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

1. The name - which seems to indicate that its the only christian church which keeps sabbath...obviously a misunderstanding from those who know little about christianity i would imagine)

Well, they are the David against the Goliath - (RCC and the Protestant church) who both worship on Sunday.... 

2 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

2. The state of the dead - SDA's believe that "the dead know nothing and have no further reward" until the second coming of Christ (for those who are saved),

Well, I have done my own research on this as well, and for ME, there is absolutely no doubt the dead know nothing. They are in their grave awaiting the resurrection  - they will be raptured up with those living in Christ and those dead not in Christ will be resurrected to judgement.

There are a gazillion verses in the Scriptures confirming the dead know nothing. Once again, the RCC has promoted purgatory, and indulgences, and claim the parable of Lazarus is not a parable but is real....

2 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

3. The wicked do not see the second coming, they are raised after millenium

As I mentioned above, I certainly believe this.

2 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

4. The Sanctuary Doctrine/Investigative Judgement of 1844

This is tied into the 2300 days and completely incorrect.. but it is just a bad interpretation that has grown legs. It should have been cut off after 1844 when Jesus did not return... instead, they double downed and patched up their interpretation to where others don't take them seriously (reason for lack of following).

2 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

5. Vegetarianism

Daniel's diet is indeed a very healthy diet.... It is certainly not as tasty as a Shake Shack burger but healthier..

2 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

6. Tithing

Not sure here... Scriptures tell us to support our church and give.... and God will give in abundance.... can't out give God. 

2 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

7. No drinking of Alcohol

This of course comes from the Scriptures and there is so much written about the effects on man drinking wine - how about Belshazzar or Samson, or so many others.... But I should say that a Corona with that burger is awfully good.

2 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

 

I found some interesting stuff that i would love to explore...it seems an incredible coincidence that the separation of church and state in Itally (the first time it ever happened) was during the reign of a pope elected in 1846 is close to 2300 years after 457 B.C (it misses out by 2 years). I think the war where papal army was first defeated happened in 1860, although the official invasion of Italy was about 10 years later. The rebellion that forced his initial exit and exile for a time from the Vatican happened in 1848.

The Scriptures are not a history book and they are not meant to tell us about Italy or China or Muslim, etc.  This is about our salvation and our place in eternity. 

I would respectfully ask if you might tell me the important factors surrounding the 2300 days;

1) What might tell you is the starting date for them,

2) What might tell  you the ending date is,

3) Are the two dates based on two physical events or occurrences or might they be spiritual determined,

4) What are the 2300 days prophecy meant to accomplish,

5) Who is able to accomplish this,

There are only two approaches to solving this: historical and spiritual. Everyone to date has applied the historical approach - they search our history books to find those events where the Temple was destroyed or almost destroyed and corrupted to a point where no daily sacrifices could possibly take place. And to be candid, there are only a few and this is where the 'interpreters' have concentrated their attention. They need to match the verses or events in the Scriptures to OUR history books as though our history books are the "Gospel". In reality, it is exactly the opposite. The Scriptures are the "Gospel" and our history books are a compilation of what some folks wrote about years later.... 

So, regarding the 2300 days, maybe you might comment on the questions above and see where it takes you... hint: Messiah is the key, Charlie

2 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

 

Pope Pius IX

a turning point in the history of the Catholic Church. My guest David Kertzer is the author of the new book "The Pope Who Would Be King: The Exile Of Pius IX And The Emergence Of Modern Europe."

Pius became pope in 1846. He was the last pope to rule over the Papal States, which covered much of what is now Italy. There was no separation of church and state until a rebellion by Italian nationalists forced Pope Pius IX into exile, which led to the creation of modern Italy. After the pope returned from exile without the Papal States to rule over, he was confined to the Vatican, giving the Vatican a new significance. Pius also instituted the doctrine of papal infallibility. He saw freedom of speech in of the press as incompatible with Catholicism. https://www.npr.org/2018/04/24/605252936/why-pius-ix-might-be-the-most-important-pope-in-modern-church-history

 

[adamjedgar]

An interesting thing about the SDA Sanctuary doctrine and those who disagree with it using Antiochus epiphanes (the little horn) but discredit any additional distant future application...

How does one then explain Revelation 11? This appears to be the exact same event...or a (then) future anti type of it!

Rev 11 cannot be Epiphanes...it's written hundreds of years later and is clearly vision of end times...

 

There is almost certainly a direct correlation between Daniel 8 and Revelation 11

 

This is why SDA's believe what they do about 1844. (Note the rev11 vision does not end in 1844...that is not the point...it's the start date for Daniel 8 that is key...and this must be related to Daniel 7 and the statue in Daniel 2.

 

Those are the links to the 457bc start dat and I think the sanctuary is the glue that binds them all together

Edited December 5, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, adamjedgar said:

An interesting thing about the SDA Sanctuary doctrine and those who disagree with it using Antiochus epiphanes (the little horn) but discredit any additional distant future application...

How does one then explain Revelation 11? This appears to be the exact same event...or a (then) future anti type of it!

Rev 11 cannot be Epiphanes...it's written hundreds of years later and is clearly vision of end times...

 

There is almost certainly a direct correlation between Daniel 8 and Revelation 11

 

This is why SDA's believe what they do about 1844. (Note the rev11 vision does not end in 1844...that is not the point...it's the start date for Daniel 8 that is key...and this must be related to Daniel 7 and the statue in Daniel 2.

 

Those are the links to the 457bc start dat and I think the sanctuary is the glue that binds them all together

Unfortunately, I have yet to study Revelation in any manner... why? Because until one understands Daniel, they have no chance of interpreting Revelation.

The 457 BC date has one purpose - to begin the start of the 490 years or the 70 weeks prophecy.  Within this time period EVERYTHING MUST TAKE PLACE.  ---- Everything about the Messiah, the Jews, the Temple, the Sanctuary..... Everything!

Consequently, the 2300 mornings and evenings will also fit quite nicely and perfectly within this 70 weeks. But if everyone attempts to attribute it in an historical manner, that is, apply it to Epiphanes, or the A/C or 1844 etc., or even His second coming, they will miss the message in Daniel. Daniel is all about the Messiah, not the four kingdoms, or some boogeyman (AC). Focus on the coming Messiah (first coming) and the 2300 days speaks to His 6 part mission found in Daniel 9. The Messiah must fulfill His mission within the last week of the 70 weeks. That is the total 'vision' period.  There is no such thing as the 'gap' theory. That was invented by the Jesuits to remove the tag that they (pope) was the 'little horn' of Daniel 8 - which he is.... they have been very successful in removing that tag and placing the AC (little horn) into the future so no one would continue to tie it to them.

The 457 BC date has no connection to the 2300 days..... try and tie it to the Messiah. thanks, Charlie It took me two months to find it.

[Marilyn C]

On 11/16/2021 at 8:00 AM, adamjedgar said:

Hi guys,

I have been doing a lot of research lately on the book of Daniel in particular chapters 2, 7 and 8.

 

Its a very controversial topic it seems

 

Daniel 2 is important i believe because it sets the theme of the entire book of daniel...ie the great statue is in reality all about the future from the time of Daniel until the time of the end (when the stone cut without hands hits the statute on the feet and completely demolishes it...i believe this will be fulfilled at the second coming of Christ) 

My belief is that Daniel 2 links with Daniel 7 because in chapter 7 we see that whilst the statue in chapter 2 appears royal, grand and refined, in truth those kingdoms represented by it act as beasts in their behaviour towards the wishes of God and his people and this is illustrated by the use of beasts instead of a statute of refined royalty.

I also see a link between daniel 7 and 8 because of:

1. the overriding theme set forth in chapter 2 - this book is about future kingdoms.

2. The little horn is mentioned and this links with Revelation 13

3. clearly these two animals are conquering world powers 

Over the last few months i have read a number of posts on various forums about this topic...one very popular theory is that Daniel 8 is fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes. I think that from my research thus far it is pretty clear that this theory is dead in the water...he was not a particularly successful conquerer nor was he a significant world power at the time.

For example, he was humiliated by the Romans in Egypt when the local Roman Governor drew a circle around him in the sand and gave him an ultimatum...he must make up his mind on returning home with his army before he could leave the circle...thus Antiochus left behind his Egyptian campaign with his tail between his legs at the hands of the Romans (who were very clearly a far more dominant world power at this time)...hardly the spoils of war from a great conqueror!

Another part of this popular Antiochus theory requires one to attempt to even link him with Daniel 8:14 by changing the interpretation of the 2300 day prophecy timeline. The proponents of this theory state that 2300 days is actually 2300 sacrificial days and that as the tradition contained 2 sacrifices per day (one in the morning and one in the evening), then in fact its only 1150 days.

I am interested in this last part from a traditional Jewish point of view...does the Jewish tradition read Daniel 8:14 as being 2300 days or 1150 days?

 

Hi Adam,

Here is my diagram of those days. See how they match up with Israel`s 7 months (+ 10 days) of cleansing the land after the Russian war.

[Marilyn C]

                                 Israel`s 7 years.

The Key point here is that God has given Israel 7 more years to complete its chastisement. This chastisement is to finish their 70 x 7 years (490), because of their rebellion against God, in not obeying Him.

`Seventy weeks (unit of 7) are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, (national rebellion)..& to anoint the Most Holy, (sanctuary)` (Dan. 9: 24)

483 years have been up to the time of Christ, and then Israel`s purpose has been put on hold while the Body of Christ is completed. Thus there is only seven more years for Israel before their chastisement is finished.

Russian War - before the 7 years.

God has said that He will bring Russia (the northern army) down to the mountains of Israel. There He will deal with them.(Ez. 39:2 & 4)

Peace Treaty - beginning the 7 years.

After the war a man from Iraq, makes a covenant between the Islamic nations of Iraq, Syria and Jordan, with Israel.

`He shall confirm a covenant with many for one `week.` (7 years) (Dan. 9: 27)

Sacrifices - 7 months & 10 days after Peace Treaty.

After the Russian war Israel will get busy burying the dead bodies of the great army.

`For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land.` (Ez. 39: 12)

 Ten more days will pass to make sure there are no more bodies. Then Israel will start their sacrifices. (7 months & 10 days = 220 days)

Middle of 7 years - the Image set up in the Temple.

`In the middle of the week, (7 years) he (anti-Christ) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.` (Dan. 9: 27) He sets up his image in the Temple. (Rev. 13: 15, Dan. 11: 31)

End of 7 years - 2,520 days, Temple Cleansed.  

This will be when the Temple is cleansed and rededicated. From the sacrifices through the desolation by the anti-Christ`s Image in the sanctuary, to the cleansing of the Temple.

`How long will the vision be concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation....`For 2,300 days, then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.`(Dan.8: 13 & 14)

 

  2,300 days plus the 220 days   = 2,520 days (7 yrs)

 

[Michael37]

On 11/16/2021 at 10:30 AM, adamjedgar said:

I have been doing a lot of research lately on the book of Daniel in particular chapters 2, 7 and 8.

Hi adamjedgar.

You mention the ministry of Bruce Gore whose material is indeed well researched and effectively presented. Some of his Preterist notions don't appeal to me, however, but the historical facts he expounds on as fulfilling OT prophecy are certainly desirable.

If you haven't checked out Chuck Missler on the Book of Daniel you are in for a YouTube treat, with the same caveat depending on escat preferences.

He speaks of the 2300 evening-mornings (Hebr. ereb boqer) most likely being the literal time between the rise of Antiochus Epiphanes and his atrocities until the recovery of Jerusalem and subsequent rededication of the Second Temple at the beginning of the Maccabean revolt against the Seleucid Empire in 164BC, which Hanukkah celebrates.