AdHoc - Regarding, "There is NO rapture for the Jews.

[The Light]

5 hours ago, Bawb said:

It does make a difference when you look at Wiki AND check the references... There is nothing wrong with Wiki, as I've BRIEFLY demonstrated, you have to check the references that are cited at the bottom of the page. Kind of like what we all have to do with folks telling us what the Bible clearly states. Ole Ronnie Reagan said it best, "Trust BUT verify"!

Just saying...

Blaising, Craig A.; Bock, Darrell L. (November 1993). Progressive Dispensationalism. Wheaton, IL: Bridgepoint Books. ISBN 9781441205124.

https://books.google.com/books?id=xsumJRsOWVMC&pg=PT34&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Scofield Bible: Its History and Impact on the Evangelical Church, Magnum & Sweetnam. Pages 188-195, 218.

https://www.academia.edu/579280/Defining_Dispensationalism_A_Cultural_Studies_Perspective

J. N. Darby. "How the Lost Sheep was Saved".

The year in which Darby left the Church of Ireland, a branch of the Anglican Church, is not certain but a consensus of opinion is that it was possibly around 1831. Searches for formal documentation of his resignation have been made in the Church of Ireland archives, but nothing has been found. It is widely believed that Darby and Lady Powerscourt were romantically attached but friends persuaded him that any marriage may prove a distraction.

Dictionary of Premillennial Theology. Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications. 1996. ISBN 0-8254-2351-1. p. 82

https://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Premillennial-Theology-Mal-Couch/dp/0825424100?asin=0825423511&revisionId=&format=4&depth=1

Marsden, George M (2006). Fundamentalism and American Culture (2nd ed.). New York: Oxford University Press. pp. 351. ISBN 0-19-530047-5. p. 46

Goddard, "The Contribution of Darby," p. 86

J. N. Darby, "The Doctrine of the Church of England at the Time of the Reformation"

"Thy Precepts (magazine), Jan/Feb 1996, Vol. 11, # 1" (PDF). "The Correspondents of John Nelson Darby, with Geographical Index and Chart of Travels. For the three volumes of Letters of J. N. Darby, it gives the page #, the language it was written in, recipient, place written, and date written; also contains a geographical index and a chart of his travels."

"The Man of Sorrows". www.plymouthbrethren.com. (it's actually)>>>>

http://plymouthbrethren.org/

{Dates of J.N.Darby's Collected Writings, Published by Bible and Gospel Trust 2013}

{Dates of J. N. Darby's Collected Writings, page 4 & 5, Published by Bible and Gospel Trust 2013}

"John Nelson Darby : Biography". www.museumstuff.com.

Winston Terrance Sutherland, B.S., Th.M. (May 2007). "John Nelson Darby: His Contributions to Contemporary Theological Higher Education (Dissertation Prepared for the Degree of Doctor of Philosophy)" (PDF).

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc3609/m2/1/high_res_d/dissertation.pdf

University of North Texas. pp. 20–21. "John Nelson Darby died in Bournemouth, on 29 April 1882 of protracted illness (Pickering, 1986; Turner, 1986). In John Nelson Darby: A Memorial, is outlined the funeral service of the revered theologian. Therein is documented that he “was brought to Bournemouth some weeks before his death, to the house of Mr. Hammond, an exClergyman of the Church of England.” A large following attended the burial, “from eight to ten hundred” participating in prayers, singing hymns (some written by Darby), and reading, with comment, the Scriptures. “There has been a large plain stone to mark the resting place of the richly-gifted servant of the Lord” displaying the caption: JOHN NELSON DARBY “AS UNKNOWN AND WELL KNOWN.” DEPARTED TO BE WITH CHRIST, 29TH APRIL 1882. AGED 81 2 COR. V. 21. Lord let me wait for thee alone, My life be only this, To serve Thee here on earth unknown, Then share Thy heavenly bliss. J. N. D"

Charles Henry Mackintosh. "The Assembly of God; or, The All-sufficiency of the Name of Jesus". "The termini of the church's earthly history are Pentecost (Acts 2), and the rapture. (1 Thess, 4: 16, 17)]"

Elmer L. Towns (1 January 2000). "The Ten Greatest Revivals Ever: from Pentecost to the Present". Liberty University. Retrieved 13 March 2011. "Years later, Nee To-sheng, better known outside of China as Watchman Nee, was influenced by a single British missionary, Margaret E. Barber. In 1909, Barber had submitted to believer’s baptism and left her Anglican mission to become an independent faith worker. She conducted “breaking of bread” meetings similar to those of the Christian Brethren. Nee To-sheng organized the Little Flock, a Brethren-style indigenous Chinese denomination. The True Jesus Church and Little Flock soon had more adherents than all other mission-sponsored churches combined."

Romans 11:23

Charles Spurgeon (June 1869). "Mr. Grant on "The Darby Brethren"". Sword and Trowel. Archived from the original on 20 December 2016. Retrieved 17 March 2013.

Grant, James (1875). The Plymouth Brethren: Their History and Heresies. London: William Macintosh. p. 60.
Sources
John Nelson Darby – as I knew him, William Kelly, Words of Truth: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Neatby, William B. (1901). A history of the Plymouth Brethren. pp. 13–18, 182–198 etc.
Stokes, George T. (October 1885). "John Nelson Darby". The Contemporary Review: 537–552.
Stunt, Timothy (2004). "John Nelson Darby". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (online ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/7141. Retrieved 18 December 2013. (Subscription or UK public library membership required.)
Weremchuk, Max S. (1993). John Nelson Darby. Loizeaux Brothers. ISBN 978-0872139237.
    My Brethren, a biography of J. N. Darby
    The writings of John Nelson Darby
    Darby & Other Resources
    Works by or about John Nelson Darby at Internet Archive
    Works by John Nelson Darby at LibriVox (public domain audiobooks)
    L’Attente actuelle de l’église et prophéties qui établissent la vérité du retour personnel du sauveur, exposées en onze soirées à Genève (1840)
    Francisci Riberae Villacastinensis, In sacram beati Ioannis Apostoli & Euangelistae Apocalypsin commentarij
    Bible translated by John Nelson Darby
    J.N. Darby's Early Years
    Correspondence between Darby and Rev. James Kelly of the Church of England – 5 megabytes
    Henry Groves: Darbyism – Its Rise, Progress & Development
    Papers of John Nelson Darby – Archive of Darby's personal papers at the University of Manchester Library, Manchester, England
    Writings by J. N. Darby and his contemporaries
    Roy A. Huebner: Historian regarding J. N. Darby, early Brethren, their theology, and dispensationalism
    Synopsis of the Books of the Bible by John Nelson Darby

My point is, if you did some research, you would find that there is evidence of the pretrib rapture much earlier than John Nelson Darby.

That said. There are two raptures. I don't think John Nelson Darby taught that. But the Word teaches it.

 

[truth7t7]

11 minutes ago, The Light said:

Evening Truth7t7,

I have never read the Scofield Bible nor did I read anything from John Nelson Darby. I was able to come to the conclusion that there was a pretribulation rapture simply by reading the Bible. At first, I thought, that there was a pretribulation rapture, but in time realized there was a rapture at the sixth seal and it was a post trib or pre wrath rapture. After a period of time I realized, wait a minute, there are two raptures. One for the Church and one for the twelve tribes. The fig tree has two harvests. Look that up on wiki. Also, Jacob had two brides. There are two harvest feasts in the feasts of Israel. Everyone is running around wondering what happens to the Church during the 70th week of Daniel and they aren't even on the earth. They are in heaven during the 70th week of Daniel because the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. And that's what the Word says.

Thanks for the response, scripture clearly teaches the church will be present on earth to witness the second coming Luke 21:28

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

scripture clearly teaches that there will be one future resurrection and final judgement of "All" that are in the graves John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Bawb]

15 minutes ago, The Light said:

My point is, if you did some research, you would find that there is evidence of the pretrib rapture much earlier than John Nelson Darby.

That said. There are two raptures. I don't think John Nelson Darby taught that. But the Word teaches it.

 

I don't agree with that point of view. I base this belief on Biblical patterns. There were no "secret escapes" of Hebrews prior to the Pesah. They all left in unison in the Exodus. I don't know of an "advance party".

Also, Lot was basically told by the Messengers Get your crap and let's go... No one else other than his family escaped or was told.

And there are Eight Things The Bible Says Will Happen Before Jesus Returns Again

A Falling Away - The Apostle Paul clearly tells us that “the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared” (1 Timothy 4:1-2). There has undoubtedly been a falling away from the faith; just look at plummeting church attendance. But there is also a falling away from the truth of the Bible with man-made doctrines that have distorted and twisted Scripture to fit what false teachers/pastors/prophets believe. This is a falling away from the truth of God and falling into error, and many are being led astray.

Increase of Lawlessness - Paul also wrote that “the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming” (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8). Apparently, the “mystery of lawlessness” was already at work in Paul’s day; but today many who profess Christ do not keep the commandments. And although we can’t be saved by the commandments, those who are saved strive to do so (1 John 3).

Love of Many Growing Cold - Jesus prophecies about the end of the age in saying, “because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold” (Matthew 24:13). Paul adds that “people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God” (2 Timothy 3:2-4). All you have to do is look at the news to see how lovers of self and haters of others has exploded in the world.

Persecution - The Voice of the Martyrs says that in just the last decade and a half of this century, there have been more killed for their faith than in all the time since Christ was crucified 2,000 years ago. In other words, take all of those killed for their faith for the last 2,000 years and then those killed in the last few decades and we see that more have died for their faith in recent years than in the previous 2,000 years!

Gospel Preached Worldwide - In the Olivet Prophecy, Jesus said about the end times that “this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come” (Matthew 24:14). Aren’t we closer than ever to the saturation point of the Gospel today? The Gospel has been proclaimed throughout the whole world on every continent and nearly every people group through ministries, missionaries, and other Christians. Jesus’ return appears to be very close.

Calling Evil Good - When you look around the world today, especially in the media, what used to be evil or bad just a few decades ago is now taunted as “good,” and what used to be upheld as those things that are good, are now seen as evil in the eyes of the world. Isaiah the Prophet sent a warning from God and said, “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter” (Isaiah 5:20). The word “woe” is not just a groan or a moan, but this word means “a judgment,” so God will send His righteous judgment on all who call what is good, evil, and upon all who deem evil as good. People who do good things are now despised and ridiculed, but when people see evil, they actually rejoice. How backward this world is.

Wars and Rumors of Wars - There is a war on terrorism right now. Many nations have been impacted, but the death toll from terrorist attacks continues to grow, but there are also threats from radical countries like North Korea that threatened to blow the lid off of world peace. Jesus warned that in the last days, “you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains” (Matt 24:6-8). Undoubtedly, there is more violence on the earth every day and it will only grow worse as Jesus’ second coming nears and that leads to another sign of Jesus’ return; violence will fill the earth.

Growing Violence - Jesus said that one of the signs leading up to His second coming would be like “the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man” (Matt 24:37), “For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark” (Matt 24:38). What were the days of Noah like? They were doing business as usual, marrying and giving in marriage, eating and drinking (partying?), but just as in the days of Noah, “The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Gen 6:5). More than that, “the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and the earth was filled with violence. And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth” (Gen 6:11-12). That’s when God sent His flood of judgment and that same judgment is coming again when Jesus Christ appears for the second time, and when they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory, “even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him” (Rev 1:7b) because they know their time of judgment has come.

Conclusion - Know that these things must happen before Christ appears for the second time (among other things), which include a falling away from the faith and the truth, growing lawlessness, the natural love of many growing cold, increased persecution, and the Gospel being proclaimed worldwide. I believe these have already happened; therefore, I see no reason that Jesus cannot come back today or tonight. All the more reason to hear what Jesus said: “Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming” (Matthew 24:42). “Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect” (Matthew 24:44).

We aren't going anywhere until Yeshua comes back first. I don't see anything contrary to this statement anywhere in the Bible...

Edited December 27, 2021 by Bawb

[The Light]

1 minute ago, truth7t7 said:

Thanks for the response, scripture clearly teaches the church will be present on earth to witness the second coming Luke 21:28

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

scripture clearly teaches that there will be one future resurrection and final judgement of "All" that are in the graves John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

And when these things BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, then look up

The Church will not be on earth during the 70th week of Daniel. When we see these things begin to come to pass...........

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Bottom line is...when you see these things begin to come to pass, look up, your redemption draweth nigh....AND YOU CAN ESCAPE ALL THE THINGS THAT WILL COME TO PASS.

The Church will not be here when these things come to pass.

[The Light]

18 minutes ago, Bawb said:

 

Conclusion - Know that these things must happen before Christ appears for the second time (among other things), which include a falling away from the faith and the truth, growing lawlessness, the natural love of many growing cold, increased persecution, and the Gospel being proclaimed worldwide. I believe these have already happened; therefore, I see no reason that Jesus cannot come back today or tonight. All the more reason to hear what Jesus said: “Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming” (Matthew 24:42). “Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect” (Matthew 24:44).

We aren't going anywhere until Yeshua comes back first. I don't see anything contrary to this statement anywhere in the Bible...

You seem to have conveniently left one out.

2 Thes 2

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You say that you see no reason that Jesus cannot come back today or tonight. Then tell me, who is the man of sin? I can tell you who it is. It is Nimrod, but he has not been revealed.

That said, this coming of Jesus is at the gathering, when EVERY EYE will see the coming of the Lord. When the Church is raptured only those believers will see His appearing.

I've got two raptures in my Bible. One when its like the days of Noah, when Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood and a second when it's like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came. I've got one coming at the trump of God or voice of God and I got a second coming at the last trump which is blown on the feast of trumpets. I've got one coming at the early summer grain harvest feast and I've got a second coming at the fall fruit harvest. I've got one coming when he comes for his first bride and I've got one coming when he comes for his chosen bride. I've got one coming before the 70th week of Daniel and I've got one coming before the wrath of God.

Maybe you need to borrow my Bible.

[truth7t7]

38 minutes ago, The Light said:

And when these things BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, then look up

The Church will not be on earth during the 70th week of Daniel. When we see these things begin to come to pass...........

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Bottom line is...when you see these things begin to come to pass, look up, your redemption draweth nigh....AND YOU CAN ESCAPE ALL THE THINGS THAT WILL COME TO PASS.

The Church will not be here when these things come to pass.

We disagree, the Church will be present on earth to see the events of the tribulation

Your suggesting "Escape" as meaning a pre-trib rapture, isn't even a reality in the context, assumption in speculation

Luke 21:31KJV

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Edited December 27, 2021 by truth7t7

[The Light]

3 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

We disagree, the Church will be present on earth to see the events of the tribulation

Your suggesting "Escape" as meaning a pre-trib rapture, not even a reality in the context, assumption in speculation

Luke 21:31KJV

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

You seem to miss the details. What you are posting now says. WHEN YOU SEE THESE THINGS COME TO PASS.

He is talking to the twelve tribes. He switched to talking in a parable in verse 29.

Luke 21

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

Those that see these things come to pass, should know that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

What does he say to the Church?

When you see these things BEGIN TO COME TO PASS.....you can escape ALL THE THINGS THAT WILL COME TO PASS.

Two groups, the Church and the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth.

One group, the Church is told when they see these things begin to come to pass, we can escape all these things that will come to pass.

The second group, the twelve tribes are told when they see these things come to pass, the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Two completely different scenarios. Two raptures.

[truth7t7]

37 minutes ago, The Light said:

You seem to miss the details. What you are posting now says. WHEN YOU SEE THESE THINGS COME TO PASS.

He is talking to the twelve tribes. He switched to talking in a parable in verse 29.

Luke 21

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

Those that see these things come to pass, should know that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

What does he say to the Church?

When you see these things BEGIN TO COME TO PASS.....you can escape ALL THE THINGS THAT WILL COME TO PASS.

Two groups, the Church and the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth.

One group, the Church is told when they see these things begin to come to pass, we can escape all these things that will come to pass.

The second group, the twelve tribes are told when they see these things come to pass, the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Two completely different scenarios. Two raptures.

I disagree

Jesus is speaking to the Church, those persecuted for his name, those that are filled with the Holy Spirit, having a mouth that the Spirit will give (The Church)

Luke 21:12-15KJV

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Edited December 28, 2021 by truth7t7

[The Light]

22 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

I disagree

Jesus is speaking to the Church, those persecuted for his name, those that are filled with the Holy Spirit, having a mouth that the Spirit will give (The Church)

Luke 21:12-15KJV

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Come on Brother. Do you really not understand that "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" means before the false Christs, the wars and rumors of wars, famine and pestilence they are going to lay their hands on them. He is talking about the events of 70AD. This has nothing to do with the Church. 

[truth7t7]

22 minutes ago, The Light said:

Come on Brother. Do you really not understand that "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" means before the false Christs, the wars and rumors of wars, famine and pestilence they are going to lay their hands on them. He is talking about the events of 70AD. This has nothing to do with the Church. 

I believe preterism's 70AD fulfillment is a teaching in error

"Future" events unfulfilled below

Matthew 24:15 Daniel's Abomination Of Desolation 

Matthew 24:21 Great Tribulation

Matthew 24:29-31 Second Coming of Jesus Christ

Edited December 28, 2021 by truth7t7