covenant Leviticus 16:16 debuncts the theory that the Old Covenant is different to the New Covenant. They are identical, its the individual who makes the promise to keep it that is different.

[adamjedgar]

1 hour ago, Biblican said:

Well said. Thank you.

I can disapprove that with a single text...John 14:15

“If you love me, keep my commands.

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, adamjedgar said:

So no one here who is of the negative against this topic keeps any commandments? You just live by the spirit right?

 

Which spirit are you being led by and how do you know...by what moral compass are you testing the spirit guidance you apparently are receiving?

How do you read all of the following texts? (Take particular notice of the last one below)

John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

1 John 2:3
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the very commandment you have heard from the beginning, that you must walk in love

Proof-texting does not establish your argument, my friend. Pitting scripture against scripture and picking those verses which suit your fancy only leads to ruin. Viewed in their proper context in light of the harmony of the scriptures, according to the teaching of the Lord and also His apostles, walking in His Spirit has always been our Father's intention for man. This is the gift of His Son, the Comforter who leads us in all truth. 

There's also the matter of assuming evil on the part of others, judging blindly from ignorance. Who are you to judge another's servant? Take care and examine yourself first, examining the log in your own eye before pointing at the speck in your brother's eye.  

For the sake of the reader who may be young in the faith or vulnerable to self-styled preachers of the Law who come among us saying, "Don't do this and do that!," the words of the apostle from the 5th chapter of Galatians encourage us in that freedom which Christ Jesus gave to us all. 

It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

 Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace. For we, through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. (verses 1-6)

And later in the chapter,

For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but serve one another through love. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the desire of the flesh is against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, in order to keep you from doing whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. (verses 13-18)

Why do you scoff at walking in His Spirit, @adamjedgar? We whose faith is in the Son of the living God have no need for the wisdom of man, those fleshly admonitions to do this and abstain from that, all of which are a form of godliness which is opposed to the Spirit of God. 

Be careful regarding the accusations you throw about, my friend. The scriptures testify of Christ, not of you. 

[adamjedgar]

33 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Be careful regarding the accusations you throw about, my friend. The scriptures testify of Christ, not of you. 

No one was ever saved by the law...we are not saved by keeping the law, we cannot keep the law perfectly, nor can we pay the price for others who have sinned who chose not to keep the law. The bible says because one man sinned (Adam) we are all condemned! (Romans 5:12 i think)

Rom5:12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

 

In my earlier post, I simply quoted a large number of texts that very specifically all say exactly the same thing (John 14:21, John 14:23, John 15:10, 1 John 2:3, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:16)...they are irrefutably identical in meaning and support exactly what is stated in John 14:15. Not a single one of them is even taken out of context!

 

BTW, all of the texts (John 14:21, John 14:23, John 15:10, 1 John 2:3, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:16) are concordance study links to the text below John 14:15...so they are scholarly links from researchers on biblehub.com not my own!

 John 14:15

15If you love Me, you will keepe My commandments.

 

 I am not attempting to place my own interpretation on anything the text says. (you can use this template and then highlight errors in your reply)

"if you love me" - who are we to love? Is this not Jesus/Mighty God? 

"you" - who is the you here? Is this not Jesus followers 

"keep my commandments?" is not this phrase quite self explanatory? Do you disagree that this means keep the 10 commandments? A google search tells me that commandments are Gods 10 commandments (i can post dozens of google search results for commandments that prove this if you want)

 

So based on a very very simple and self explanatory breakdown of Jesus statement in John 14:15, very clearly, as supported by all of the other texts I also posted;

To love God is to keep his commandments. His commandments are the moral law of love.

As i said before, the wages of sin was death before sin even entered this world. I have already irrefutably proven that by quoting Genesis 2:16

16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

 

God made this statement to Adam immediately after he placed him in the middle of the Garden of Eden. Note the 5th word in verse 16 God "COMMANDED" him. 

 

If as you say, the law was only instituted because of sin, how do you explain Genesis 2:16?

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by adamjedgar

[adamjedgar]

1 hour ago, pinacled said:

 Without cost( equivocal exchange) there are many provisions of forgiveness found available in torah(law).

For instance there is the release of bond servants during the 7th yr.

Not least there's the relationship between david and saul. Do not render evil for evil. David always saw saul as forgiven far as I can see.

 

hmmm, i should think that after reading 1 Samuel 28 and 29, it seems to me that God had completely forsaken Saul due to his persistent rejection of Gods commands. To add to this, Saul then went to a witch and asked her to divine up the spirit of Samuel.

Does this appear like the behaviour of one whom is likely to obtain salvation considering one of King Sauls last acts breached the first two commandments...he fell down and worshipped the spirit that was divined by the witch!

This appears to be offtopic from the two covenants

Edited December 10, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Biblican]

5 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

I can disapprove that with a single text...John 14:15

“If you love me, keep my commands.

And what are Jesus commands? He said He kept the Father's commandments, what are Jesus' commandments?  The first ones are repent, believe the gospel and follow Me. Then continue on with the Sermon on the mount which includes the commands to forgive and refrain from judging. The big one is love one another. Under the New Covenant where the law is internalized, Jesus' commands deal with the inner man and the condition of the heart, something the Pharisees missed. That's what made them Pharisees, then and now.

[adamjedgar]

You are right, "the big one is love"

John 14:15

If you LOVE me, you will KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS!

Edited December 10, 2021 by adamjedgar

[MrBear]

John 12:49

For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken

SHALOM❤️

[JohnR7]

On 12/2/2021 at 4:34 PM, adamjedgar said:

Having said that, how does that even make any difference? Are you suggesting that the definition of "the saints" are different post rapture to pre rapture? 

 

I was always taught that the Holy Spirit is removed from the world at the rapture. The Church age or the Holy Spirit dispensation will have come to an end. They also call this the "dispensation of the grace of God" Ephesins 8:2 

[steve morrow]

SEEKING  GODS  ANSWERS  OR  MANS 

 

EPHESIANS 5:6  let no man deceive you with vain words --- for because of these things cometh the wrath of  GOD  upon the ---the children of disobedience---

--5:7-- be not you therefore partakers with them 

 

PSALM 108:12  give us help from trouble ---for vain is the help of man---

HEBREWS 13:6  so that we may boldly say ---THE  LORD  is my helper---and I will not fear what man shall do unto me 

 

PROVERBS 16:7  when a mans ways ---please  THE  LORD  HE--- maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him 

1 PETER 2:21  for even hereunto were you called because  CHRIST  also suffered for us leaving us an example ---that you should follow in his steps---

JOHN 8:29  and  HE  that sent  ME  is with  ME  THE  FATHER  hath not left  ME  alone ---for I do always those things that please  HIM---

GALATIANS 1:10  for do I now persuade men or  GOD  or do I seek to please men ---for if I yet pleased men -- I should not-- be the servant of  CHRIST---

1 THESSALONIANS 4:1  furthermore then we beseech you --brethren--and exhort you by  THE  LORD  JESUS  that as you have received of us ---how you ought to walk --and to please  GOD-- so would you abound more and more---

 

*******JOHN 8:26  I have many things to say and to judge of you but  HE  that sent  ME  is true  ---and I speak to the world those things --- which I have learned of  HIM*******

--8:27-- they understood not that  HE  spake to them --of  THE  FATHER--

--8:28-- then said  JESUS  unto them when you have lifted up  THE  SON  OF  MAN  then shall you know that I am  HE  ---AND  I  DO  NOTHING  OF  MYSELF--- but as  MY  FATHER  hath taught me  ---I SPEAK THESE THINGS---

 

PHILIPPIANS 2:21  for all seek their own ---not the things which are  JESUS  CHRISTS---

 

JUDE 1:14  and enoch also the seventh from adam prophesied of these saying behold  THE  LORD  cometh with ten thousands of  HIS  saints 

*******1:15-- to execute judgement upon all and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed ---and of all their hard speeches --- which ungodly sinners have spoken against  HIM*******

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

[TheBlade]

"1 keep the commandments of God and

2. have the faith of Jesus

without BOTH of the above, we are also lost just like king Saul."
 

Then post that verse. You not the word of God said "without both of the above we are lost". How lucky? Hmm no such thing as luck.. how blessed were those that only had Christs word. John 3:16.. they heard that and just believed. Yeah not ever one was there 24/7 to hear write down every word.. no that  happen many years later Matt,Mark,Luke,John.

Now Christ did say.. if you love me keep my words/commands. Is that to mean salvation also? I don't know of one that was head over heals in love with JESUS when they were 1st saved...well they never knew Him. He told the 12 this years later. 

We would be in shock if we could see each heart. Well do they love the lord their God with all their heart all their soul and mind? ALL is all and that is all all means. Love each other like Christ loves us? No and no. Were in a fallen world.. its a work in progress. 

This is what I believe.. be nice if that was added to some posts. Well what the PO posted is just his own personal belief and then shared why he believes it. I do not agree. Forgive me cherry picking verses we can make the word of God say anything.. my post alone can prove that.  Tis.. strange how some see theory others see as fact..