1st and 2nd Resurrection differences

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It is patently clear that all this could not happen if the dead were already in heaven. If they were in heaven, all that would happen is that the living would be caught up to join them. But TOGETHER - impossible. The dead could not rise FIRST because they are already there. And the dead would "PRE-VENT" the living, which is impossible if the go up TOGETHER.

Pretty sure I covered this but if not let me know. 

 

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Next, you alluded to Revelation 19. That is simply answered. It is the scene AFTER judgment of the Church, for we see only SOME are blessed. I is THOSE, a select group. How did they get there? Why, it is explained in 1st Thessalonians above. How they got there is not the context of Revelation 19. The author expects yo to know that.

What judgment of the Church?  Where and When is the Church judged? WHERE is that written?   It would HAVE TO BE BEFORE a pre trib rapture correct?  Is it being judged now?  Let's say you are not in sin this moment but the moment Christ returns you are in sin.  DO you stay or go?  Does that effect the whole congregation or just the individual.  Does it effect the WHOLE BODY OF CHRIST?  How many can have unrepented sin in the body of Christ before THERE CAN'T BE A PRE TRIB RAPTURE?  Why doesn't anyone who believe in it ask these kinds of questions?  

THE kingdom of heaven IS coming to the earth.  NO one is going UP to heaven AFTER the tribulation.  

Maybe we need to explore what CAUGHT UP in the air means more thoroughly.  Do you know of any scripture that speaks of Christ ASCENDING again to heaven after being seated on the right hand of God?  Any scripture telling us He leaves being seated before enemies made footstool to come grab the church and return?  Any scripture about what happens with them?  Are they seated on the right hand of God being the 'Body of which He is the head'?  Would that mean that unrepented sin would then be seated next to GOD?  or as I asked do those get left behind?  Wouldn't that become  'luck' as opposed to being 'Just'.  Would God give us just one detail on this event?  I have never found a single scripture that mentions anything but the beginning of sorrows taking place before the trib.  

I may not be able to answer this question because of those and many other questions I have about 'the church' as it's own entity, I don't know.  Maybe I got lucky and did, but it doesn't feel like it.  Sorry.  d

 

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Morning,
I realize I still have to go back to the questions you asked yesterday but I thought I would answer this one as I agree the book of John is about GOD, and I believe the whole reason for our existence is for His pleasure and for us to dwell with Him and to recognize ALL He is and ALL He is offering us.  I believe for God to end up with those who TRULY love Him from down deep in their souls He had to start out with a set number of souls with free will.  He had to allow them to be in different situations to make choices so that when the attrition was over He would end up with the perfect number of people who live and loved in a manner that didn't raise up His fury so He could just sit back and enjoy - for that age.  

I believe GOD is JUST and that every man will stand alone in judgment to win entry into that house.  WHERE that place/house/tabernacle is doesn't matter.  The only thing that matters is that GOD REFINES US as much as possible or as much as we will allow now so that on that day of judgment we have the best chance of walking away with the prize and not just going up in smoke BECAUSE HE IS A CONSUMING FIRE and that fire consumes evil.  I believe everything that takes place is for God to KNOW WHO WE REALLY ARE and eternal life is a really long time.  

SURE the details matter for the JUSTICE OF it all in the end but in reality they don't matter that much now because we are in sinful flesh.  When we receive our immortality and an incorruptible body, those details will work themselves out.  We need to be able to STEP into our roles as rulers and priests with Christ for His kingdom without the 'need to be taught' who God is and what God wants and how God works and what God feels so that we can do the best job possible.  We can't be Jesus who was a perfectly clean vessel to fill up with all of who He is but we can clean up our vessels ourselves to the point we can be useful.   

THE WORST way to spend our time right now is not learning and teaching HIS TRUTH because not only are we not receiving points for learning that but we are getting demerits for teaching lies. Would be better to just study and evangelize than to do what we do here IF we are not teaching truth.  THEY will be in better shape than those getting it wrong.  AND we are responsible for ALL those who go astray or become deceived because of our words.  Sure we can come to truth ourselves and repent but that won't help those who didn't and their blood will be on our hands.  God isn't kidding the least little bit about those who teach being called because the price we pay is enormous if we aren't and we get it wrong. 

WOW, I forgot what the question was so stopping and going back to read yesterdays questions and go from there.  You tore me up and I was exhausted and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for that.  You must be really good only having the two fingers to type with, I don't know how you did it.  Any ways please forgive the 'off topic' rant THANK GOD I can't yell at myself for derailing....I stop     d

Hey. Get it off your chest. I went to bed feeling frustrated that I could not keep up with you. But upon waking I knew the Lord was just dealing with my ego. You'd think at my age I'd have learned something. By the way, between you and the other learned saints you made yesterday a taxing day for me.

Good.

As you say, if we deign to teach, we'd better have our ducks in a row. 

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Stepping up.  

I believe it is about heaven but not ONLY ABOUT heaven.  I believe the words of God have meanings for ewes and sheep and sheep from milk to meat from called to chosen from Jews and Greeks to Kings and Queens of the Nations and His words also cover AGES past and future.  I do understand that there are specific words written for specific peoples at specific times but that they all 'carry over' meaning for all times also.  Some past events  written of are over and done yet those same words ALSO speak to future events.  TIME WILL TELL. 

John.  First I think the four gospels work to show different sides to the life of Christ.  Him as a man, Him as God, the kingdom being proclaimed and rejected Christ being proclaimed and rejected.  

I believe most of John follows more along the lines of 'the rejection' and it's effects and what would come from those effects.  (Yes, it covers all aspects but it's angle is from that view point)  So it is about the earth life to follow and the heavenly, though not going to be on earth right then still to continue.  

I think the acknowledgement of that rejection can be seen with Martha and saying 'the last day' and Jesus not only NOT acknowledging that but His words CHANGING the resurrection FROM THE LAST DAY (though there must/will/was be 'a last day' for all the prophecies from the Old Covenant to be fulfilled as written)
to HE IS THE RESURRECTION and THE LIFE and BELIEVING THAT, BELIEVING IN HIM is/will soon be how we will be coming to Our Father as opposed to Him coming to us.  

As Christ will be going to heaven to provide a place for us after death, the Holy Spirit is being sent to provide us resting places before death.  SO the ABODES are to be found in a CHRISTIANS life well before death and immediately after also.  The fear of being in bondage to death, KEPT FROM the presence of God WILL BE TAKEN AWAY.  That is why it had to be kept secret or else Satan would not have performed as he did.  (trying to out maneuver God.  You would think with all the times he has failed that he would begin to 'see' but that is how PRIDE works.  Even when your face is put in the dirt there is something that tells you you are still right and can work it all out...just got to get them to 'believe' you)

I hope I stepped up.  If not let me know and I will try to do better.  d



 

I appreciate your effort. Thanks.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

They are with God and I believe the significance is they are the very elect.  They didn't just believe, they didn't just follow the laws, but when GREAT GREAT GREAT tribulation, that is to a flesh body, came, THEY STOOD and withstood and they endured to the ending of their lives.  They lost their lives rather than tring to save them by REFUSING to deny or sway from their faith in God.  They are under the altar because they are RIGHT THERE in the tabernacle or temple WITH GOD.  They will remain there until it is time for Christ to return as King of kings and Lord of lords to rule and reign with Him when he sits on His throne on earth.  And when the Lords Day is done and Satan is released and gathers all together who will oppose God, GOD in a moment will end it and His throne judgment will come to earth at which time THE MESSIAH will no longer be needed and will again become with God and Jesus Christ though no longer in the 'place' as Saviour will still be King of kings and Lord of lords.  

This makes me think of when Satan was ruling before the fall and how God rules His Kingdoms with Kings

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rank and file, order no chaos

Vessels of gold and honorable down to vessels of wood without honor.

And the only thing we take with us are our works....


d

Okaayyy. I didn't get your point but thanks for your answer.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

But you do so erroneously. It is not semantics. 

 

I asked if I could be shown an example of a disembodied spirit. 
I asked if there was any interest in learning a different point of view. 

 

If I cannot be shown an example of a disembodied (human) spirit then that is important to this discussion. If there's no interest in either a unified understanding of the tripartite view or an alternative then that too is important. It's not personal. 

I think that you should show how the "disembodied spirits" are crucial to out faith. Statements of perceived error are easy. It's their proof that counts. 

I think, in view of the latest exchange, that you should show, with scripture, a disembodied spirit and define it.

[Your closest friendnt]

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your point of view. The grand question is, is this book inspired by the Holy Spirit or not? When Satan tempted Eve, he contradicted God. Is this the truth then, seeing as it contradicts God? No, Satan's words are a lie, but the RECORD of his lying words is true. No doubt Solomon brought his wisdom into the matter. No doubt also that Solomon went badly off the rails. So you and I, and all Christians have to decide; Is my Bible the inspired record, or is it subject to the corruption that all men since Adam, except our Lord Jesus, suffer from?

A big decision.

So here's the question that counts. In Luke 8 we read; 

53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead. 54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. 55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

The record is that "HER spirit cane AGAIN". The grammar tells us two things. 

1. the spirit that came was hers - she owned it or it was particular to her
2. if so, then it was the spirit that departed her when she died
3. if so, then the word "AGAIN" confirms that she had the same spirit before

I think it's clear that the spirit, whether in a person or departed a person, lives on.

We' ve got the atheist out of the way.

And there a few matters highlighted in your post, one of them is that the Devil did not speak matters of truth to Eve, and you forgot that you are talking to me about this matter and as we have never agreed on your point of view about the comments the Serpent made to Eve, you talked about me agreeing with your comments in a way that you had my permission to do so when you did not.

Snd perhaps having someone else in your mind who has agree with your comments in Genesis about the Comments of the Serpent to Eve.

Or perhaps you assume that you were in a conversation with the one who taught you to speak about the comments of Serpent to Eve.

To trust the words of someone you are looking up that there creditable because you learn from it is not a good reason to trust that his understanding it rooted in the bible.

For that reason you are cencirly and neglect fully mistaken about how cencirly truthful was the Serpent to Eve.

Had you looked up the relevant passage in Genesis you would have seen that for yourself and would have not say untrue full comments about the Serpent. 

In your own words we cannot denied what it is recorded.

We cannot go with a populous opinion and ignore the record in Genesis .

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

Great. 

Start with the fact there are no such things in the Bible as disembodied human spirits. They can be seen. If they can be seen then they have mass. In 1 Corinthians 15 35-54 Paul explicitly states we are raised with a spiritual body. Jesus is the first resurrected person and he had a body. If we go back to the Genesis creation account then we find the word the KJV translates as "soul" is more accurately "being." God took a pile of dust from the earth and breathed into it His life-giving breath (many teachers say "spirit," but that's not what the Hebrews says). 

In one of your posts you acknowledge we are bodies. THAT is the correct position. We don't "have" a body; we are a body. We don't "have" a soul; we are a soul.  We don't simply "have" a spirit; we are a spirit. The body raised is a different body in constitution but there is a one-to-one correlation between the body buried and the body resurrected. The "tripartite" view of humans is old but it has never been the only view (theologically speaking). Many Christians have been dualist and many noumenous or unified. 

There are no disembodied spirits in the Bible. 

When someone interacts with a dead human in the Bible that dead person still has their personhood. They have their soul and their spirit and whenever seen they have a body. In the account of Lazarus or the rich man they have fingers and mouths and can interact with physical conditions like water. They are not bodiless. 

To be human is to have a body, soul, and spirit but to remove one of those constituent parts is to lose the whole. To lose one of the parts is to cease to be human. 

Jesus said we'll be like the angels. We will be like the angels when t comes to marriage.  People over-generalize this to make that statement say things it does not say and things that do not reconcile with the whole of scripture. When we resurrect, we may be like angels in many ways but we won't be angels; we will be humans. As far as we know from scripture, no other creature in all of creation is made in God's image, offered redemption and salvation, regenerated by and indwelt with God's own Separate and Sacred Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. 

We are unique. 

We shed a corpse, but that does not mean we are bodiless. 

I could agree with a lot that you say here, but I have to say that your premise is incorrect. You mentioned a "spiritual body" and then attribute this body as still attached to the person in death. The term "spiritual" has two meanings:

1. It has its origin in the spirit or Holy Spirit
2. It is spirit in substance

In the case of Christ's body, He pointedly said that it is not spirit in substance (LK..23:39). Rather, point number 1 is true. The body in resurrection is constructed, not in the womb, but by the Holy Spirit and in heaven (2nd Cor.5:1-2). Added to this, it says in verse 8 that we an be "absent from the body". This is the revelation of scripture. At death, we put off our bodies, are absent from them, are naked and wait for the day when we put them on again.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Davids flesh would ALWAYS remain in the dirt.  To this day ALL flesh that has died is still in the dirt.  THAT is why God gave EVERY SEED TWO BODIES.  

Don't fear man who can kill the body but fear HIM who can kill the body and soul...

JUST because we rise in an incorruptible body doesn't mean we RECEIVE our immortality.  BOTH LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN WERE in paradise.  They were in bodies as they could see and recognize each other.  We KNOW the lake of fire won't be killing LAZARUS but we DON'T know about the rich man.  

The 'seen' and the 'unseen' realms.  They can cross over but WE CAN'T because of our earthy bodies.  ALL WILL STAND IN JUDGMENT.  

Can you imagine how much harder it is to DIE in an incorruptible body?  Brings shivers to my spine.  THAT IS WHAT FEAR IS TO ME.  Someone killing this flesh body is super easy.  We die from all kinds of little things.  These bodies are easy to kill and these bodies either go into shock and we pass out or go directly to death.  SOME get to go to the right side of the gulf, some don't.  We also have to remember that NOT the earth only BUT HEAVEN WILL BE SHAKING OUT THE WICKED.  

Again, I hope I stepped up, and if I didn't please let me know and I will try harder.  People just got me paranoid of either going off topic or going to long or cutting it too short or leaving the first century or not rightly dividing or numerous other things I do wrong so I can't ever really tell anymore which actually may be better cause I have to get out of the way....d

You're doing fine. I am flattered that you even heeded my request. Rather than rebut you, let me give my understanding of the matter, and you can compare.

The best documented death in scripture is that of our Lord Jesus. He allowed men to kill His body. In doing so, they "pierced" Him in five places not counting His crown of thorns. Three days later He ROSE from the dead and that evening presented Himself to the disciples. Thomas was not there, and refused the testimony of the others that Jesus was risen. A week later he was present and the Lord presented Himself to Thomas. The proof for Thomas was that he  could put his fingers into these five wounds.

When Jesus appears from the sky at His return, it will again be decisive that He was "pierced". It will be the proof of Who He is to Israel and they will mourn.

The record shows that our Lord Jesus was resurrected in a body that was "pierced". We have to decide whether our Lord Jesus was in a new body, or His old. Hint; The tomb was empty. So also Lazarus. He needed to have the burial bandages removed.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

They are with God and I believe the significance is they are the very elect.  They didn't just believe, they didn't just follow the laws, but when GREAT GREAT GREAT tribulation, that is to a flesh body, came, THEY STOOD and withstood and they endured to the ending of their lives.  They lost their lives rather than tring to save them by REFUSING to deny or sway from their faith in God.  They are under the altar because they are RIGHT THERE in the tabernacle or temple WITH GOD.  They will remain there until it is time for Christ to return as King of kings and Lord of lords to rule and reign with Him when he sits on His throne on earth.  And when the Lords Day is done and Satan is released and gathers all together who will oppose God, GOD in a moment will end it and His throne judgment will come to earth at which time THE MESSIAH will no longer be needed and will again become with God and Jesus Christ though no longer in the 'place' as Saviour will still be King of kings and Lord of lords.  

This makes me think of when Satan was ruling before the fall and how God rules His Kingdoms with Kings

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rank and file, order no chaos

Vessels of gold and honorable down to vessels of wood without honor.

And the only thing we take with us are our works....


d

OK. The matter got lost, and it is a long explanation which altar it was. I let this pass if you agree.

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Pretty sure I covered this but if not let me know. 

 

What judgment of the Church?  Where and When is the Church judged? WHERE is that written?   It would HAVE TO BE BEFORE a pre trib rapture correct?  Is it being judged now?  Let's say you are not in sin this moment but the moment Christ returns you are in sin.  DO you stay or go?  Does that effect the whole congregation or just the individual.  Does it effect the WHOLE BODY OF CHRIST?  How many can have unrepented sin in the body of Christ before THERE CAN'T BE A PRE TRIB RAPTURE?  Why doesn't anyone who believe in it ask these kinds of questions?  

THE kingdom of heaven IS coming to the earth.  NO one is going UP to heaven AFTER the tribulation.  

Maybe we need to explore what CAUGHT UP in the air means more thoroughly.  Do you know of any scripture that speaks of Christ ASCENDING again to heaven after being seated on the right hand of God?  Any scripture telling us He leaves being seated before enemies made footstool to come grab the church and return?  Any scripture about what happens with them?  Are they seated on the right hand of God being the 'Body of which He is the head'?  Would that mean that unrepented sin would then be seated next to GOD?  or as I asked do those get left behind?  Wouldn't that become  'luck' as opposed to being 'Just'.  Would God give us just one detail on this event?  I have never found a single scripture that mentions anything but the beginning of sorrows taking place before the trib.  

I may not be able to answer this question because of those and many other questions I have about 'the church' as it's own entity, I don't know.  Maybe I got lucky and did, but it doesn't feel like it.  Sorry.  d

 

OK. The text is there for all to see. Your appreciation of it is different to mine. If we cannot agree what the text says, no further discussion can help. I'm happy to leave it at that.

It's been edifying to swap ideas. Go well sister.