Two questions for pretribulationists

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

AdHoc.....Where is the wrath on men in this Chapter? And is not the whole matter God's doing? Who gives the order for Satan to be ejected from heaven?

In Rev Chapter 12:17..... "So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus". This is Satan's wrath (enraged) against men.

The dragon was ENRAGED..... not joyful as you claim....(The Abomination of Desolation is Satan JOY, not his wrath.)

AdHoc....And is not the whole matter God's doing? Who gives the order for Satan to be ejected from heaven?

Of course, it is God who orchestrates these events....and all events throughout history.

 

I think you misread me. The Great Tribulation starts with the Beast taking up his position in the Temple. This is three and one half years before the end of the age, and it is Satan's high point. But it is the final provocation for God against men - for it is men who have placed the Beast in power and it is men who have adorned the Holy Place with a man.

Satan's subsequent wrath is a danger to the Woman and her Seed, but God warns "the Land and the Sea". Why? Because joining Satan's persecution of the Woman is the subject of the Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46. This judgement is for "ALL Nations" and what they did to "the least of my Brethren".

If you are not sure, cut and paste every mention of the word "wrath" in Revelation, in its context, make a list and see what you come up with.

Go well bro.

[The Light]

6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

And who are "they who have the testimony of Jesus Christ"... if the all the believers have been raptured to heaven?

The Church is raptured to heaven before the 70th week of Daniel, which is before the seals are opened. After the Church age is over, God turns His attention to the Jews. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, part of Israel has its blindness removed and understands that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah. Those are the ones that keep the commandments and now have the testimony of Jesus. The 144,000 (12,000 from each tribe) are first fruits of the next harvest. That is the harvest that you see in Rev 7 which occurs with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

There are two raptures. One pre trib or pre 70th week for the Church and one pre wrath for the 12 tribes across the earth.

Those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection will be on earth during God's wrath. The Church and the 12 tribes across the earth that became believers will be in heaven when God's wrath occurs. 

[DeighAnn]

49 minutes ago, The Light said:

The Church is raptured to heaven before the 70th week of Daniel, which is before the seals are opened.

Then who is the information for?  Who is it written to?

[JoeCanada]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, part of Israel has its blindness removed and understands that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah.

Hi Light...

I'm sure that you must have scripture(s) to support this.

4 hours ago, The Light said:

The 144,000 (12,000 from each tribe) are first fruits of the next harvest. That is the harvest that you see in Rev 7 which occurs with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Hmmmm...... how is it that John sees a great multitude so large that no-one can count.....if there are 144,000 ( obviously a crowd that is easily counted)

We are way off topic here....but that's the way it usually goes....lol

[The Light]

42 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Light...

I'm sure that you must have scripture(s) to support this.

Hmmmm...... how is it that John sees a great multitude so large that no-one can count.....if there are 144,000 ( obviously a crowd that is easily counted)

We are way off topic here....but that's the way it usually goes....lol

Brother, you are not following. The 144,000 are the 1st fruits of the harvest. The harvest is the great multitude. (The great multitude actually includes the dead in Christ, the alive Church that will be raptured, those alive of the 12 tribes that are raptured when the Great Tribulation is shortened and the dead.  When you have acceptable first fruits it is a guarantee of a harvest. Since the 144,000 are of the 12 tribes and are first fruits, you know the harvest is of the 12 tribes.

As I said, the Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened via the pre tribulation rapture. The Church are the kings and priests of Rev 5. 

The great multitude is the gathering from heaven and earth, where the Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. 

Mark 13 

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

After this gathering that occurs at the 6th seal, the wrath of God occurs which is the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The great multitude will be in heaven for the marriage supper.

[WilliamL]

  

On 12/12/2021 at 9:16 AM, JoeCanada said:

And who are "they who have the testimony of Jesus Christ"... if the all the believers have been raptured to heaven?

All the "elect" among the believers will be raptured at the 6th Seal. The "firstborn" only are taken up to the sanctuary, according to Divine law. But at the Rapture, "every eye will see Him [Jesus]," and many from unbelieving Israel will then come to faith, per Zech. 12:10.

57. The Firstfruits and the Harvest 2.0; Part 1

Explains the prophetic application of OT laws about the firstfruits, the firstborn, and the full harvest, as these laws relate to the End Times.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2686-the-firstfruits-and-the-harvest-20-part-1/

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The Great Tribulation starts with the Beast taking up his position in the Temple.

The GT starts with the Son of Perdition in the Holy Place. Whereas the Beast comes along only after the Rapture, when he 'ascends out of the Abyss.' Rev. 11:7 etc. The Abyss is not opened until the 5th Trumpet, well after the 6th and 7th Seals.

The Beast is post-trib; the Son of Perdition is pre-trib .

22 hours ago, The Light said:

The Church is raptured to heaven before the 70th week of Daniel...

The 70th week of Daniel is history, already fulfilled. Nothing in Daniel 9:26b-27 mentions anything at all about the End Times.

44. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 6: Do Verses 26b-27 Prophesy Future Events?

Lists the seven specific prophecies found in Daniel 9:26b-27, and tests whether the belief that they will be fulfilled in the future can be substantiated by other biblical End Time prophecies.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1605-daniel-924-27-examined-part-6-do-verses-26b-27-prophesy-future-events/

45. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 7: Were Verses 26b-27 Fulfilled Historically?

Tests the view that the seven prophesied events were fulfilled during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D. Also, explains the reason for the time-gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/

Edited December 13, 2021 by WilliamL

[JoeCanada]

On 12/8/2021 at 9:06 AM, JoeCanada said:

1) Pretribulation claims that believers would lose their blessed hope if they were persecuted by the Antichrist, then by that reasoning they must believe that so-called “tribulation saints” will lose their blessed hope since they will be persecuted by the Antichrist.

My question: please give me one passage where “tribulation saints” lose their blessed hope.

One passage will suffice.

Alright.... there has yet to be a satisfactory answer to this question from those who believe in the pretrib doctrine. Maybe having 2 questions was a bit much, so we'll just have one question at a time. 

(The term 'tribulation saints' is a term dreamt up and used by pretribulationists. I'm not calling anybody out, I'm just stating facts). 

So.......................... anybody?

Can anybody answer this question? 

................................................................................................................................................????????????????????????????????????

Anyone?????????????????????????????????????????????

What exactly is this blessed hope that pretrib thinks that a believer would lose under persecution?

Oh great....that's another question. Sheeeesh!

 

[AdHoc]

9 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

  

...

The GT starts with the Son of Perdition in the Holy Place. Whereas the Beast comes along only after the Rapture, when he 'ascends out of the Abyss.' Rev. 11:7 etc. The Abyss is not opened until the 5th Trumpet, well after the 6th and 7th Seals.

The Beast is post-trib; the Son of Perdition is pre-trib .

...

I would have appreciated some scripture for that because you have just created a problem. In Revelation 7 the Beast is introduced and allowed to reign 42 months. During this time it is given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them (13:7). How so if the rapture has occurred?

As for Daniel's 70th week being complete, how is it possible when the sequence of Matthew 24 is (verse 15) WHEN you see the abomination of desolation, flee ... (verse 21) THEN shall be tribulation as never before .... (verse 29) IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of THOSE days ... (verse 30) THEN shall the Son of man appear. The grammar indicates these events being IMMEDIATELY SEQUENTIAL. But another problem arises. The daily oblation spoken of in Daniel was to be offered at God's dwelling place (Ex.29). The Temple must be standing for this. But Daniel designates the prince WHO IS TO COME as a prince of the people who destroyed the Temple. Now, when Daniel was in Babylon, Solomon's Temple had already been destroyed, so the "people who destroyed the Temple" must be Romans and the Temple that of Zerubbabel. So which Temple is standing for Daniel 9:27?

There was no third Temple yet. The 70th Week must be future.

[AdHoc]

4 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Alright.... there has yet to be a satisfactory answer to this question from those who believe in the pretrib doctrine. Maybe having 2 questions was a bit much, so we'll just have one question at a time. 

(The term 'tribulation saints' is a term dreamt up and used by pretribulationists. I'm not calling anybody out, I'm just stating facts). 

So.......................... anybody?

Can anybody answer this question? 

................................................................................................................................................????????????????????????????????????

Anyone?????????????????????????????????????????????

What exactly is this blessed hope that pretrib thinks that a believer would lose under persecution?

Oh great....that's another question. Sheeeesh!

 

The difficulty I think, is, nobody is owning up to using the term "blessed hope". Which poster used it?

OK. I personally don't use the term "Tribulation saints", but what do you think we should call those who the Beast makes war with and overcomes in Revelation 13:7? The Bible calls them saints and they are there when the Beast reigns 42 months. Then, what name do you give the seed of the woman in Revelation 12 who, "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" and who must flee to a wilderness and be helped by the earth (v.16) because of persecution 1260 days (42 months). And what do you call those of every nation who greet the Lord with Palms, praise Him for salvation, have their garments washed in Christ's blood but who weep for the hardship of "going through THE Great Tribulation"? In Revelation 18:4 "God's people" reside in Babylon the Great, and are called to come out. Do you think they will come out? And if not what shall we call them who receive of Babylon's plagues?

I think the pre-tribers are at least honest. They can't explain these examples, but they admit that there are saints on earth during the Great Tribulation. I don't agree with their reasons for them being there, but ... well ... they're there.

[JoeCanada]

9 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The difficulty I think, is, nobody is owning up to using the term "blessed hope". Which poster used it?

This term is used by Dr Thomas Ice....the big Kahuna of pretribulation, and millions of his followers use it.

 

10 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

but what do you think we should call those who the Beast makes war with and overcomes in Revelation 13:7?

The church, believers in Christ

 

12 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Then, what name do you give the seed of the woman in Revelation 12 who, "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" and who must flee to a wilderness and be helped by the earth (v.16) because of persecution 1260 days (42 months)

The church, believers in Christ, those have "the testimony of Jesus Christ"

 

14 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

And what do you call those of every nation who greet the Lord with Palms, praise Him for salvation, have their garments washed in Christ's blood but who weep for the hardship of "going through THE Great Tribulation"?

The church, believers in Christ

 

16 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

In Revelation 18:4 "God's people" reside in Babylon the Great, and are called to come out. Do you think they will come out?

Yes....they are God's people. 

 

19 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

what shall we call them who receive of Babylon's plagues?

These are the 'earth dwellers, those who dwell on the earth..... the unbelievers.'

 

21 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I think the pre-tribers are at least honest. They can't explain these examples,

Oh, they do try though. I've heard more "twists" of Scripture than the 50's dance era to Chubby Checker. To say that's 'honest'   well.......?