The Great Tribulation Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Sealed Church Is Protected, Dont Be Deceived

[The Light]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

The biggest problem I see with equating the 7th trump of Revelation with the trump in I Thes 4:16:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first".....

 The trumpet in Rev is blown by an angel, where in 1 Thes it is the trump of God, blown by God.

The Great Sound of a Trumpet is the "long last trumpet" blast on the feast of Yom Teruah, which is also Rosh Hashanah which is the Feast of the Blowing of Trumpets. 

Tekiah Gadolah literally is "great sound of a trumpet"

Jesus referred to this trumpet blast directly by saying " And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds"................ Matt 24:31

In 1Cor 15:52, Paul referred to the "last trumpet". There are three trumpet blasts on mo-edim (feasts of the Lord). The first trumpet was blown on Pentecost and the last trumpet was blown on Yom Teruah, which as shown above was the long trumpet blast.

 

 

Great post JoeCanada.

First trump on Pentecost. Last trump on the Feast of Trumpets. Also, a trumpet on the Day of Atonement. 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Diaste,

The biggest problem I see with equating the 7th trump of Revelation with the trump in I Thes 4:16:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first".....

 The trumpet in Rev is blown by an angel, where in 1 Thes it is the trump of God, blown by God.

So, when looking at replies I always go check the relevant passage. I may have missed something by 'that much', or completely. I have been known to miss a thing or two in the past and it will likely happen again.

But when I look at 1 Thess 4:16 I don't see where it says God himself sounds the trump. I see the trump is 'of God', as in possessed, or owned. Or perhaps determined or ordered, sanctified with special significance even. Am I missing it?

16 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The Great Sound of a Trumpet is the "long last trumpet" blast on the feast of Yom Teruah, which is also Rosh Hashanah which is the Feast of the Blowing of Trumpets. 

This appears to be Talmudic and therefore tradition of rabbis. I don't place a lot of stock in that tradition when it comes to prophecy. I feel Jesus set the record straight when He confronted the Sanhedrin; vipers and hypocrites. 

16 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Tekiah Gadolah literally is "great sound of a trumpet"

Jesus referred to this trumpet blast directly by saying " And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds"................ Matt 24:31

I don't see "Tekiah Gadolah" in Lev 23:24, if that's to what  you refer.

I also don't see a link to the feasts in Matt 24:31. I don't know Jesus referred to any or all feasts or holy days from the deep past. I always assumed He fulfilled them all and it's all new. We don't need any of that anymore. No sacrifices, no days of atonement, no religious rules or ruling religious bodies. 

16 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

In 1Cor 15:52, Paul referred to the "last trumpet". There are three trumpet blasts on mo-edim (feasts of the Lord). The first trumpet was blown on Pentecost and the last trumpet was blown on Yom Teruah, which as shown above was the long trumpet blast.

Paul surely knew of the 7th trump of Revelation. And what 'last trump' of Yom Teruah? There is no such trump said to be a last trump on that day, in scripture, that I have seen. 

The main argument here is not who owns what trump and who sounds said trump, it's when.

The last trump, the sound of a great trump, a loud trump, the trump of God, all occur as portents of a singular combination; The coming of Christ and the gathering of the elect. Even though the trumps are not described the same, these trumps are linked to both.

Matt 24:

"They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds,"

1 Thess 4:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up"

1 Cor:

"But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him."

" We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

So then, unless we have 3 comings of Jesus and three unrelated trumps it's inescapable the three mentions of a trump are one and the same; and not describing different trumps but attributes of the very same trump.

The trump as above is loud, long, last and is God's. One trump with 4 attributes.

My Jeep is a TJ, a Wrangler and a Chrysler; 4 names for the same vehicle. 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, The Light said:

Thanks for detailed answer. Can you answer me this? Is this taught in Churches, that the seals and trumpets run concurrently?

I don't know. Pretrib is the most popular doctrine and it's all I hear when it comes to this topic. But an organization is probably more about numbers than truth in any case so whatever keeps people in the pews and donating is what will be preached. Cynical? Maybe. Truth? Certainly.

18 hours ago, The Light said:

I would not say that I had a pretrib background, but I believed in a pretrib rapture as that's usually what you got if you listened to people. As I began to study more it became very clear that the rapture takes place at the sixth seal. That meant the rapture was either post trib or prewrath, however you wanted to look at it. I knew that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 was not when Jesus comes to set up His kingdom on earth, when He sets His foot on the Mount of Olives. I knew that it was Jesus coming for a rapture, and that would occur at the 6th seal. Therefore, I knew that those that taught a pretrib rapture were wrong.

About the same path I walked. 

18 hours ago, The Light said:

Even though I was totally confident that the rapture occurred at the 6th seal, things just never added up. There were always problems that didn't make sense. Once I had the understand that the fig tree has two harvests things started adding up. It was not the Church that is raptured at the 6th seal, it is the 12 tribes across the earth. Once I realized that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel, I began to get a better picture. If God is going to take both Gentile and Jew as He declares, how does that work. Part of the Jews eyes aren't opened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That means the Church is raptured before the 70th week of Daniel and the final week is about Gods Chosen.

Didn't walk this path.

18 hours ago, The Light said:

Two raptures, two harvests, one when it is like the days of Noah and likewise also, one when it is like the days of Lot. 

I'll address the rest of your post soon as I found it interesting.

 

Blessings.

[Last Daze]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Paul surely knew of the 7th trump of Revelation. And what 'last trump' of Yom Teruah? There is no such trump said to be a last trump on that day, in scripture, that I have seen. 

Maybe Paul was referencing this verse:

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And march in the storm winds of the south.  Zechariah 9:14

And called it the last trump because of:

And the Lord their God will save them on that day
As the flock of His people;
For they are like the precious stones of a crown,
Sparkling on His land.  Zechariah 9:16

How do you know for sure that Paul knew of the 7th trumpet in Revelation?

[JoeCanada]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Paul surely knew of the 7th trump of Revelation

Hi Diaste,

 Paul's first letter to Corinth refers to "the" last trumpet, and his use of the article "the" indicates Paul expected his audience to know and recognize this particular trumpet blast. This wasn't "some" trumpet, it was "THE" the trumpet, so Paul must be referring to a trumpet already known to his readers in the day he wrote 1 Corinthians. 

Paul could not have meant the trumpets described in the Trumpet Judgments of Revelation, because the book of Revelation wasn't written and revealed to the Church until 40 years after Paul's death. The historical order of authorship for the New Testament books precludes the possibility that these are the same trumpets. No one in Paul's day could have known that trumpet judgments were a part of God's plan for Tribulation when Paul referred to "the" trumpet, so Paul was clearly speaking about some other trumpet. On the other hand, the final trumpet blast of Rosh Hashanah was very well known to Paul and his readers. 

 

[The Light]

On 12/25/2021 at 12:46 PM, truth7t7 said:

Scripture is very clear, the 144,000 are sealed and added to the church present on earth 

Scripture is clear. The 144,000 will be sealed and be the first fruits of the harvest of the 12 twelve tribe across the earth, which occurs at the 6th seal. As to the Church they will be raptured pretrib before the 7 seals are even opened.

[truth7t7]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Scripture is clear. The 144,000 will be sealed and be the first fruits of the harvest of the 12 twelve tribe across the earth, which occurs at the 6th seal. As to the Church they will be raptured pretrib before the 7 seals are even opened.

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture, the Church will be present on earth to witness the second coming

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Diaste,

 Paul's first letter to Corinth refers to "the" last trumpet, and his use of the article "the" indicates Paul expected his audience to know and recognize this particular trumpet blast. This wasn't "some" trumpet, it was "THE" the trumpet, so Paul must be referring to a trumpet already known to his readers in the day he wrote 1 Corinthians. 

Paul could not have meant the trumpets described in the Trumpet Judgments of Revelation, because the book of Revelation wasn't written and revealed to the Church until 40 years after Paul's death. The historical order of authorship for the New Testament books precludes the possibility that these are the same trumpets. No one in Paul's day could have known that trumpet judgments were a part of God's plan for Tribulation when Paul referred to "the" trumpet, so Paul was clearly speaking about some other trumpet. On the other hand, the final trumpet blast of Rosh Hashanah was very well known to Paul and his readers. 

This is based on what scripture does not say. No where in scripture that I know tells us Paul did or did not know a thing, nor when he knew it or did not know that thing.

Clearly there is a direct statement referring to a trump associated with Jesus coming and the gathering of the elect in Matt 34:31. Now I don't know this to be the case but it's reasonable there was a lot of off the books conversation occurring. We don't know what was taught besides what we see written.

John alludes to much, much more:

"There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written." 

And at least once this happened:

"While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately."

How often did this occur and what was said that we don't know about?

Now you say that Paul could not have known about the 7th trump so it must some other known trump as the Revelation had not been handed to John at that point.

One, there is no last trump at the feast of trumpets in scripture. If there is one it's a Talmudic tradition of rabbinical origin.

Two, Paul knew about the mystery he reveals in 1 Cor 15:51-52. Paul also knew about the dread man of sin in 2 Thess 2:3-4. He also knew about the nature of the coming of Jesus in 1 Thess 5 along with our appointment with salvation and not wrath, and our sober walk in the light that darkness and the thief which brings wrath will not overtake us. 

All this was taught to Paul by the disciples or at the meeting on the road to Damascus, or some other revelatory experience which was not recorded, but to which Paul alludes in his letters. We don't question where Paul learned such things, from whom or when. No doubt Jesus taught the disciples about these things and they related them to Paul during get togethers; or Paul received direct revelation.

Paul further claims revelation from Christ learning many things directly from the King Himself. 

Paul speaks to things never before revealed to anyone, especially 1 Cor 15:51-52, and we accept this is fact apart from prior knowledge contained in individuals or groups.

Matt 24 is an outline of the end of the age. The disciples asked Him for this. Jesus exposition on this raise many questions and it's without doubt in my mind after the Olivet Discourse many things were discussed, many questions asked, and many answers given, none of which were recorded. 

Many questions could be answered that do not harm the timing of the Revelation nor it's content, the last trump equivalent to the 7th trump being one.

 

 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Maybe Paul was referencing this verse:

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And march in the storm winds of the south.  Zechariah 9:14

And called it the last trump because of:

And the Lord their God will save them on that day
As the flock of His people;
For they are like the precious stones of a crown,
Sparkling on His land.  Zechariah 9:16

How do you know for sure that Paul knew of the 7th trumpet in Revelation?

I don't know it for sure as it's inferred. I can't be unequivocal as it's not recorded just what Paul did or didn't know, nor when he did or did not know it in this case.

However Paul was privy to mysteries and he revealed them in his letters, notably 1 Cor 15:51-52. It's seems more than reasonable that if Paul knew so much about the coming of Jesus and the gathering, and the nature of the Coming and the gathering, that he would also have known about a 'last trump' as the herald of the Coming and gathering. 

So it's not unlikely his reference is to a trump not previously known associated with the revealed mysteries he shows us in his letters.

Also, the last trump, the trump of God and a loud trump are all closely associated with the Coming of Jesus and the gathering of the elect. This says to me it's one trump that's last, loud and belongs to God. If we pare out the last trump then what are we to do with the trump of God and the loud trumpet call? 

To answer the above quoted verses I see no conflict. Zech 9 is a day of the Lord passage. This chapter speaks to Jesus as both the humble servant and conquering king. This is related to us in the NT, albeit in less florid, cryptic language. The rams horn either blown by the King himself or the herald is still associated with the coming of Jesus and the end of the age and the saving of His people. 

Even here then we see the trumpet call of the Lord and the last trump as being the same.[ not that I think this is a reference to the last trump, but it could be]

[Selah7]

sorry.  Posted on the wrong thread.  

Edited January 2, 2022 by Selah7