Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings - CHRISTIAN OR CULTIC?

[other one]

12 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Yep.  

For the record: the opening post does not use the word "cult" except in its title. It appears to conflate the word with "occult," and nowhere are any of these terms defined as intended to be used in this discussion. It is akin to any conversation about whether or not the USA is a "Christian" nation. There are several similar problems in this op but the one I am most wary about is the premise one believer can tell others what and how to read fiction. That is presuppositional. 

For adults I would agree....     Kids, I can't say that about....   I know of people who read the Harry Potter books when they were preteen and fooled around with witchcraft because of it....   Parents were not keeping a watch closely enough on them.  In that case I would be rather leery of saying it's ok for kids to read the books without parents oversight.   I'm not even sure how many parents would be qualified to do that from reading this thread. LoL

[GandalfTheWise]

My sense is that much of this debate comes down to how concrete a thinker a particular person is.  Some people love allegory and using symbolism to represent the real world in ways that bring deeper understanding to things.  Some people do not like such things thinking that they have nothing to do with the real world and as such are a waste of time.   Some people read or watch sci-fi (at least well-written sci-fi) and can find brilliant commentary on modern issues or thought provoking questions.  Some people read or watch sci-fi and think it's stupid because the real world doesn't work that way.   It's not that either one is right or wrong; it's that we are all wired differently about such things.   Some people can read Lewis, Tolkien, or Rowling and primarily see themes, ideas, allegories, etc., and drop into a mode as if they are watching something happen to people they care about who live in a different world.  Some people interpret what they are reading primarily on basis with comparison to the real world and judge it on that basis.

The fan communities that have sprung up from the works of Tolkien, Rowling, and Lewis have some marked differences I think are worth looking at.  I'd note that there's also a mixture in these communities between those who primarily liked the movies and those who primarily liked the books.  I'll mostly refer to those people who liked the books.

Lewis' non-fiction works are generally accepted and respected within the Christian community.  Of course there is not complete agreement on everything he wrote.  But in general, many Christians consider that within his time and place he was an effective apologist for Christianity.   My observation is that most people who like his fiction works are Christians.  Those people I've know who like sci-fi and fantasy genres but don't like the Narnia series appear to me to have rejected their explicit Christian underpinning.   I have run across people whose first positive thoughts and feelings toward Christianity arose from reading the Narnia books.  For some, it was their first exposure to a God and Christ figure as powerful, caring, gentle, and loving and beloved by his followers rather than a stark judge waiting to toss out punishment who was feared.

As to Lewis supposedly glorifying witchcraft, that sounds ludicrous to me.  In the Narnia books, Lewis had a clear demarcation between the physical world and that which is outside the physical world.  That which was outside the physical world was only rightfully the domain of Aslan and anyone attempting to step into that realm was a usurper.  Anyone who attempted to dabble in this was explicitly shown as evil or stupid.  I doubt that there is a single person reading the Narnia series who had any positive view toward the witch, the dwarves who followed her, Digory's uncle (forget his name but the magician in the Magician's Nephew), or anyone else who dabbled in magic.  The only one who was rightfully allowed to do anything in the supernatural or spiritual or extra-physical world (or whatever one might want to call it) beyond the physical was Aslan or those he delegated limited power to and only bad or evil would come from anyone else who tried on their own.  Most people reading these books clearly understand that a world with talking animals is to be taken allegorically rather than as a literal representation of our own world.

In large part, the Potter books were primarily about friendship and good versus evil and the growth of characters as a theme.  Change the magical references to sci-fi and aliens and technology and the story itself could have been much the same and I suspect there'd be minimal debate in the Christian community about the stories.  I have however seen within some parts of the Potter fan community a tendency to glorify things that are starting to push occult type things.  The heavy reliance of the story line on details of magic in a world that is essentially identical to our own is problematic to me.  I could see people starting to dabble in such things as a result of this exposure. 

The Tolkien fan community (referring more to those who read the LOTR and Hobbit) seem to be more drawn to the stories as epic literature telling a compelling story of good versus evil.  Again, most readers reading about a world of elves, dwarves, men, hobbits, ents, and other such things realize this is not our literal real world but a fantasy world with its own rules and principles.  In Tolkien's world, any magic is essentially an allegory for power that is functionally the same as different alien races having different technologies in various sci-fi stories.  The key theme is more about the conflict between those who want to live a peaceful life and those who want to conquer and control.  In the real world today where right and wrong and a sense that there is a rule of law that should apply to everyone is being replaced by might makes right, Tolkien's works stand in stark contrast having a sense of absolute right and wrong that apply to everyone one.  Why did good prevail versus evil in the LOTR?  Because evil had no clue that good didn't want to rule the world.  Good didn't want the all-powerful ring to rule, they wanted to destroy it so no one could rule the world.  Ultimately, the main hero is Samwise.  A simple, shy, not too intelligent, and clumsy hobbit who when holding the all-powerful ring doesn't want it because he really didn't want to tell people what to do or rule the world, he just wanted a quiet peaceful garden of his own.  It was ultimately his simplicity and determination and rejection of power that saved the world.  Those who like Tolkien's works are drawn in much more for the epic nature and Tolkien's genius at creating characters that the reader cares about and wants to see what happens to them.  Those who have any discussions about magic or other elements of the world do so in much the same way Star Trek or Star Wars fans discuss how various technologies work.  Few, if any, think this has anything to do with the real world.

Bottom line is that in the real world, there is the occult and those who would dabble in it in various ways leading to contact with supernatural things that are unhealthy to dabble in.   Narnia is an allegorical fantastical world unrelated to this.  Lewis' general message is that dabbling in magic is bad.  Tolkien's world is similarly allegorical and unrelated to this.  Any magic is incidental and presented as part of the world without specific detail.  Indeed, it is to some degree presented more as an advanced technology of some type like sci-fi.   Harry Potter's world is perhaps more problematic since it is set in a hidden world that is part of our own and uses a plethora of details about magic that is not too far removed from our world.

If the world's still around in 100 years, I'd guess Narnia and LOTR will still be read and considered classics.  In contrast, I suspect Harry Potter will go more the way of the Wizard of Oz.

 

 

[B-B]

27 minutes ago, GandalfTheWise said:

My sense is that much of this debate comes down to how concrete a thinker a particular person is.  Some people love allegory and using symbolism to represent the real world in ways that bring deeper understanding to things.  Some people do not like such things thinking that they have nothing to do with the real world and as such are a waste of time.   Some people read or watch sci-fi (at least well-written sci-fi) and can find brilliant commentary on modern issues or thought provoking questions.  Some people read or watch sci-fi and think it's stupid because the real world doesn't work that way.   It's not that either one is right or wrong; it's that we are all wired differently about such things.   Some people can read Lewis, Tolkien, or Rowling and primarily see themes, ideas, allegories, etc., and drop into a mode as if they are watching something happen to people they care about who live in a different world.  Some people interpret what they are reading primarily on basis with comparison to the real world and judge it on that basis.

The fan communities that have sprung up from the works of Tolkien, Rowling, and Lewis have some marked differences I think are worth looking at.  I'd note that there's also a mixture in these communities between those who primarily liked the movies and those who primarily liked the books.  I'll mostly refer to those people who liked the books.

Lewis' non-fiction works are generally accepted and respected within the Christian community.  Of course there is not complete agreement on everything he wrote.  But in general, many Christians consider that within his time and place he was an effective apologist for Christianity.   My observation is that most people who like his fiction works are Christians.  Those people I've know who like sci-fi and fantasy genres but don't like the Narnia series appear to me to have rejected their explicit Christian underpinning.   I have run across people whose first positive thoughts and feelings toward Christianity arose from reading the Narnia books.  For some, it was their first exposure to a God and Christ figure as powerful, caring, gentle, and loving and beloved by his followers rather than a stark judge waiting to toss out punishment who was feared.

As to Lewis supposedly glorifying witchcraft, that sounds ludicrous to me.  In the Narnia books, Lewis had a clear demarcation between the physical world and that which is outside the physical world.  That which was outside the physical world was only rightfully the domain of Aslan and anyone attempting to step into that realm was a usurper.  Anyone who attempted to dabble in this was explicitly shown as evil or stupid.  I doubt that there is a single person reading the Narnia series who had any positive view toward the witch, the dwarves who followed her, Digory's uncle (forget his name but the magician in the Magician's Nephew), or anyone else who dabbled in magic.  The only one who was rightfully allowed to do anything in the supernatural or spiritual or extra-physical world (or whatever one might want to call it) beyond the physical was Aslan or those he delegated limited power to and only bad or evil would come from anyone else who tried on their own.  Most people reading these books clearly understand that a world with talking animals is to be taken allegorically rather than as a literal representation of our own world.

In large part, the Potter books were primarily about friendship and good versus evil and the growth of characters as a theme.  Change the magical references to sci-fi and aliens and technology and the story itself could have been much the same and I suspect there'd be minimal debate in the Christian community about the stories.  I have however seen within some parts of the Potter fan community a tendency to glorify things that are starting to push occult type things.  The heavy reliance of the story line on details of magic in a world that is essentially identical to our own is problematic to me.  I could see people starting to dabble in such things as a result of this exposure. 

The Tolkien fan community (referring more to those who read the LOTR and Hobbit) seem to be more drawn to the stories as epic literature telling a compelling story of good versus evil.  Again, most readers reading about a world of elves, dwarves, men, hobbits, ents, and other such things realize this is not our literal real world but a fantasy world with its own rules and principles.  In Tolkien's world, any magic is essentially an allegory for power that is functionally the same as different alien races having different technologies in various sci-fi stories.  The key theme is more about the conflict between those who want to live a peaceful life and those who want to conquer and control.  In the real world today where right and wrong and a sense that there is a rule of law that should apply to everyone is being replaced by might makes right, Tolkien's works stand in stark contrast having a sense of absolute right and wrong that apply to everyone one.  Why did good prevail versus evil in the LOTR?  Because evil had no clue that good didn't want to rule the world.  Good didn't want the all-powerful ring to rule, they wanted to destroy it so no one could rule the world.  Ultimately, the main hero is Samwise.  A simple, shy, not too intelligent, and clumsy hobbit who when holding the all-powerful ring doesn't want it because he really didn't want to tell people what to do or rule the world, he just wanted a quiet peaceful garden of his own.  It was ultimately his simplicity and determination and rejection of power that saved the world.  Those who like Tolkien's works are drawn in much more for the epic nature and Tolkien's genius at creating characters that the reader cares about and wants to see what happens to them.  Those who have any discussions about magic or other elements of the world do so in much the same way Star Trek or Star Wars fans discuss how various technologies work.  Few, if any, think this has anything to do with the real world.

Bottom line is that in the real world, there is the occult and those who would dabble in it in various ways leading to contact with supernatural things that are unhealthy to dabble in.   Narnia is an allegorical fantastical world unrelated to this.  Lewis' general message is that dabbling in magic is bad.  Tolkien's world is similarly allegorical and unrelated to this.  Any magic is incidental and presented as part of the world without specific detail.  Indeed, it is to some degree presented more as an advanced technology of some type like sci-fi.   Harry Potter's world is perhaps more problematic since it is set in a hidden world that is part of our own and uses a plethora of details about magic that is not too far removed from our world.

If the world's still around in 100 years, I'd guess Narnia and LOTR will still be read and considered classics.  In contrast, I suspect Harry Potter will go more the way of the Wizard of Oz.

 

 

thanks for this @GandalfTheWise 😊 in my opinion, your writing here is fair/balanced.

Edited January 1, 2022 by B-B

[other one]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Is the op about children? Or parenting? Can we not proof-read Tolkien, Lewis, and Rowling as parents and proactively use those tomes with our children in preparation for worse things they will experience and confront in the world? 

 

that's what I said from the beginning, that it was ok if we talk with the kids and let them know that it's not just fun and games but serious.   It could be used as a tool by well informed parents.   

However I can tell you from personal experience that there is just a few clicks on the internet from harry potter stuff to the Kabbala and the Egyptian Book of the Dead and deeper.

[MrBear]

It does seem like people here have a good head on their shoulders 

unfortunatly common sense isn’t all that common now a days 😱

how many teenage girls wanted to meet a sparkly vampire after reading or watching twilight?

did you know emergency room visits reported an increased number of spider bite victims after the VENOM movie came out?

people were actually letting spiders bite them on purpose 😂😂

funny but not, people say that’s just natural selection at work… but many people in this world can’t distinguish fantasy from reality these days, I’m glad to see you guys have the Good sense God gave you

SHALOM❤️

[Don19]

My view is, "unto the pure all things are pure." Titus 1:15. I enjoy LOTR. I enjoy other forms of entertainment in which "magic" may be featured - e.g., video games.

There is something to be said for the Bible's admonitions against sorcery, but it doesn't follow this legalistic narrative. Magicians appear, for example, as those who withstood Moses. Paul compares them (Jannes and Jambres) to those in the perilous times of the last days (2 Tim 3:1-13). And what does he say about this? He says, they have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. Thus, I can clearly connect witchcraft spiritually to those who wield a power that is not of God. That would be, the power of your own hands: the work of your own hands, the work of your own flesh, rather than the righteousness of God. But the gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe (Rom 1:16). And, the kingdom of God is not in word but in power (1 Cor 4:20). How you avoid witchcraft, spiritually, has to do with walking in the Spirit. Ultimately, all power is of God, and I am kept by the power of God.

[Guest]

Proverbs 17:8  A bribe is like a magic stone in the eyes of the one who gives it; wherever he turns he prospers.
Ezekiel 13:18  and say, Thus says the Lord GOD: Woe to the women who sew magic bands upon all wrists, and make veils for the heads of persons of every stature, in the hunt for souls! Will you hunt down souls belonging to my people and keep your own souls alive?
Ezekiel 13:20  “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against your magic bands with which you hunt the souls like birds, and I will tear them from your arms, and I will let the souls whom you hunt go free, the souls like birds.
Acts 8:9  But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great.
Acts 8:11  And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic.
Acts 19:19  And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver.  [NASB 1995]

[Guest]

2 Chronicles 33:6  And he burned his sons as an offering in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and used fortune-telling and omens and sorcery, and dealt with mediums and with necromancers. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger.
Galatians 5:20  idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Revelations 18:23  and the light of a lamp will shine in you no more, and the voice of bridegroom and bride will be heard in you no more, for your merchants were the great ones of the earth, and all nations were deceived by your sorcery.  [NASB 1995]

[Bawb]

On 1/1/2022 at 4:45 PM, Don19 said:

My view is, "unto the pure all things are pure." Titus 1:15. I enjoy LOTR. I enjoy other forms of entertainment in which "magic" may be featured - e.g., video games.

There is something to be said for the Bible's admonitions against sorcery, but it doesn't follow this legalistic narrative. Magicians appear, for example, as those who withstood Moses. Paul compares them (Jannes and Jambres) to those in the perilous times of the last days (2 Tim 3:1-13). And what does he say about this? He says, they have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. Thus, I can clearly connect witchcraft spiritually to those who wield a power that is not of God. That would be, the power of your own hands: the work of your own hands, the work of your own flesh, rather than the righteousness of God. But the gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe (Rom 1:16). And, the kingdom of God is not in word but in power (1 Cor 4:20). How you avoid witchcraft, spiritually, has to do with walking in the Spirit. Ultimately, all power is of God, and I am kept by the power of God.

Magic/Magicians and Witches are in the Bible as a warning of what NOT TO DO. They were not put there for entertainment.

1 Corinthians 3:16 - Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

Are you to bring abominated things into the temple?

What is God's view on any form/type or amount of witchcraft?

Deuteronomy 18:9 through 12 - When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD. And because of these detestable things, the LORD your God is driving out the nations before you.

Exodus 22:18 - You shall not allow a sorceress to live.

Proverbs 28:9 - Whoever turns his ear away from hearing the law, even his prayer is detestable.

Proverbs 21:27 - The sacrifice of the wicked is detestable--how much more so when brought with ill intent!

A little bit of sin/magic won't hurt you? Just some rat food for thought...

Next time you're in the store, look at the package of D-Con Rat Poison. It only has .0005% poison. The rest of the ingredients are harmless filler and grain products. It's just a little poison, it won't hurt you right? It's the same thing with witchcraft and other abominated things you allow to enter into your soul.

By the way, you might want to look up what legalism is. Just because someone follows the Bible, they are not a legalist. However, if you don't follow the Bible you most certainly are lawless!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Bawb

[Bawb]

On 1/1/2022 at 12:22 PM, Josheb said:

Yep.  

For the record: the opening post does not use the word "cult" except in its title. It appears to conflate the word with "occult," and nowhere are any of these terms defined as intended to be used in this discussion. It is akin to any conversation about whether or not the USA is a "Christian" nation. There are several similar problems in this op but the one I am most wary about is the premise one believer can tell others what and how to read fiction. That is presuppositional. 

You can read what you want. But that does not change the fact these books and their kind are spiritual rat poison...