Eternal state

[Marilyn C]

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Hi Uriah.

Thanks for the input. I think that some of the scriptures you gave I see as the Millennium while you see them as the everlasting state and visa versa. But it is a big thing that we agree on the earth remaining. If that is agreed on, the ground is set for ironing out other differences. Also, your view that New Jerusalem is literal would cause some difficulties, but I try to see everything as literal until proven otherwise and so I applaud you. I believe that New Jerusalem is a picture of the consummation of all that God set out to do.

1. In Galatians 4:26 she is a mother of both Christian and Jew (context) and she is "above"
2. In Revelation 12 there is a mother of both Christian and Jew and she is a "sign" in heaven
3. In Revelation 21 she both City and Bride and Tabernacle - a difficult one to reconcile literally
4. In Revelation 21 she is heavenly but comes to earth
5. In Revelation 21 the Tabernacle is the City, but God is the Temple - difficult if taken literally
6. In Revelation 21 the Wall is made with the materials for building the Church (1st Cor.3)
7. In Revelation 21 the Gates are named for Israel's Tribes
8. In Revelation 22 presents difficulties. Verse 2 says that the "Street of the River of water of life ..." Can a river have a street?
9. In Revelation 22 gives THE Tree of Life (singular) on both sides of the river

But if the City is taken as a picture, then God's fourfold purpose with man is seen consummated:

1. God made man to be in His image and likeness. The City has the glory of God
2. God made man to rule - the City rules (22:4)
3. God made man to be His Temple - the city is a Tabernacle
4. God made man for a Bride for His Son Jesus - the City is a heavenly Bride
5. God made man to fence the Garden - The City has a high wall

But I could have missed something.

Hello again AdHoc,

I am assuming that "a picture" means symbolic. I'm sticking with the more literal view. That is not to say there isn't symbolism on the pages of Revelation for example. The very meaning of symbolism is a representation...but of what? Something that is, in the case of prophecy a physical fulfillment. So far, I haven't seen anyone  point to a bible prophecy fulfillment that has not been literal.

So, a few observations about the citations above:

1. In Galatians- She is "above", and I believe will remain there until she comes "out of heaven from God"

2. Rev 21-"she is a "sign" That word is nowhere in the chapter. What kind of sign do you mean?

3. Rev 21 -A city cannot be a bride. The city is her dwelling place that Jesus prepares for her.

4. Rev 21- You will not find a place in scripture where the city comes to the surface of the planet.

5. Rev 21- It says the "tabernacle" is with men, after the previous declares the city was coming form God. (only used once in chap.)

6. Rev 21- The (church) believers are inside the city that has walls.

7. Rev 22- Right and are they symbolic of the tribes?

8. Rev 22-  Try another bible version, the river is through the middle of the great street. 

9. Rev 22- It isn't confined to ONE tree. Rather, one KIND of tree.

"As a picture"

1. The city has the glory of God because God is in it.

2. It is the people who rule with god IN the city.

3. What makes any structure is the presence of God.

4. The bride of Christ is people, not the structure they live in.

5.  "fence the garden"? Nonexistent. "dress" "till" "serve" "keep"

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

I think that "greater" part might be in reverse order: eschatology, or the doctrine(s) of the last things, is necessarily subordinate to that which has no beginning or end. There is no "last thing" in eternity or an eternal state. For us the eternal state will be a "new beginning," if you will, but there has been a God existing in the eternal state for all eternity, and there have been everlasting creatures living in the eternal state before our resurrected arrival.

Hi Josh,

This is somewhat similar to my thoughts that I was eventually getting to. Namely, those who use the term "eternal state" mean a particular aspect of eternity or the portion of it that looks at things after events described in scripture. With no further description after a certain point it is called the eternal state. But in reality we could say that the eternal state is now as well.

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

The "eternal state" is a particularly curious concept given Jesus report the heavens and the earth will pass away . 

That same word is found in Rev 21:4- And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

So it is the new heaven and new Earth  because of the cataclysms in Revelation show the sky will change and geographical changes take place. 

[Cntrysner]

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The believer will be a normal human being except he will have a renewed body (2nd Cor.5:1-5). Because he possesses eternal life he will live effortlessly and healthily forever.

2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved G2647, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

kataluō
kat-al-oo'-o
From G2596 and G3089; to loosen down (disintegrate), that is, (by implication) to demolish (literally or figuratively); specifically (compare G2646) to halt for the night: - destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to nought, overthrow, throw down.

Not a renewed body but a entirely new body from heaven.

[AdHoc]

9 minutes ago, Cntrysner said:

2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved G2647, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

kataluō
kat-al-oo'-o
From G2596 and G3089; to loosen down (disintegrate), that is, (by implication) to demolish (literally or figuratively); specifically (compare G2646) to halt for the night: - destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to nought, overthrow, throw down.

Not a renewed body but a entirely new body from heaven.

I will agree with you in principle. "Dissolved" is correct. The meaning is that it is broken down utterly to its constituent parts. This is what Genesis 3:19 says. But the body is "formed" (from clay) and God's version of the resurrection body is still flesh - but flesh in accordance with your condition at death. Because of this I used the word "renewed"

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. (1 Co 15:35–42)

The seed is what a man is at the time of death. A hardened sinner will enter death as a certain "kind". What he is in death will decide what he is in resurrection. Genesis 1:11-12 sets the law of seeds. If you enter death as a born-again, sanctified and transformed man, you rise again IN THE FLESH but with "celestial glory". That is why, concerning the living, they will be "changed" (1st Cor.15:51). This implies the substance remains but the construction is different. So it was in every resurrection in the Bible. At the hand of Elijah, Elisha, our Lord Jesus, Peter and Paul were men and women raised. All took up their body of flesh. I am aware that our Lord Jesus did not see corruption in the grave, but He still had His wounds, and will have them when he bursts through the clouds at His return. The Tribes of the Land will "mourn when they see Him Whom they pierced!"

The body is broken down to the elements after death. Even Jezebel, who must pass through the bowels of an unclean dog, returns ultimately to the elements. At resurrection, God, not the womb, constructs the resurrection body. God gives a body (i) of flesh, and (ii) in accordance with what the person was at the time of death. But the constituent elements are the same.

If this sounds as if it is a grey area, remember that your description must apply equally to the unbelievers - for all men are resurrected (Jn.5:28, 1st Cor.15:22)

[Cntrysner]

20 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I will agree with you in principle. "Dissolved" is correct. The meaning is that it is broken down utterly to its constituent parts. This is what Genesis 3:19 says. But the body is "formed" (from clay) and God's version of the resurrection body is still flesh - but flesh in accordance with your condition at death. Because of this I used the word "renewed"

The new body (body of Christ) is not reconstructed flesh of the earth, it is a new body from heaven.

Christ was resurrected in the flesh but raised to glory. Flesh can not enter into the kingdom of God .1Co 15:50

There are different resurrections of flesh but they are always tied to the earth but we have a heavenly calling with a Spiritual body (celestial)  waiting in heaven.

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

I am assuming that "a picture" means symbolic. I'm sticking with the more literal view. That is not to say there isn't symbolism on the pages of Revelation for example. The very meaning of symbolism is a representation...but of what? Something that is, in the case of prophecy a physical fulfillment. So far, I haven't seen anyone  point to a bible prophecy fulfillment that has not been literal.

Agreed. All prophecy is literally fulfilled. But is New Jerusalem prophesied?

You have answered comprehensively and I thank you for this courtesy. I will not answer every point as for some that have no scripture, you have a right to your opinion.

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

1. In Galatians- She is "above", and I believe will remain there until she comes "out of heaven from God

Who then is "she"? Is "she" literal? Who is the literal mother of us all. The "Father" we know - but the "mother"?

 

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

2. Rev 21-"she is a "sign" That word is nowhere in the chapter. What kind of sign do you mean?

3. Rev 21 -A city cannot be a bride. The city is her dwelling place that Jesus prepares for her.

That's just it. It's an absurdity. The City is not her dwelling place. She IS the city. Is Jesus a Lamb? Or does the Lamb picture the function Jesus took?

 

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

4. Rev 21- You will not find a place in scripture where the city comes to the surface of the planet.

Aahhh! The Nations go in and out of it. Where are the Nations then? And if the Lamb is given the Nations to reign over, shall the King be in exile? No. Literally or metaphorically, the New Jerusalem is for the earth. The Tabernacle always had no floor for the earth was its floor.

 

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

3. What makes any structure is the presence of God.

4. The bride of Christ is people, not the structure they live in.

5.  "fence the garden"? Nonexistent. "dress" "till" "serve" "keep"

Point 3 does not make sense within our context. The Father's House is the Temple and it is made with materials that are a creature. It must be made. Wood depicts humanity, not deity. A precious stone is wood that underwent a transformation.

Point 4 contradicts your point 3 in your first section. I know what you mean, but it highlights the difficulty of taking it literally. Somewhere things will clash.

Point 5. The meaning of the Hebrew "to  keep" (shamar) generally means to keep in the sense of protecting. It can also mean "retain". The sense of what Adam was given to do was the same as Jerusalem's wall or the Veil of the Tabernacle. The Serpent should have been long ejected from the Garden - and "kept" out.

But, hey bro. If you are comfortable with a literal City, that ok by me. It's just that it is a cube of 2,220 kilometers square and who can breath at the top of the cube. Blood boils at 63,000 ft. (19.2 km).

[Cntrysner]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The seed is what a man is at the time of death. A hardened sinner will enter death as a certain "kind". What he is in death will decide what he is in resurrection. Genesis 1:11-12 sets the law of seeds.

Gen 1:11  And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 
Gen 1:12  And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 

The fruit falls to the ground and the seed is exposed for new live yet the flesh is consumed or decays away. One does not cultivate the flesh of fruit and God is not concerned it perfecting your flesh and He certainly will not cultivate it to a new creature.  

Joh 6:51  I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 
Joh 6:52  The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 
Joh 6:53  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 

Christ is our High Priest and sacrifice, he fulfilled both requirements literally on earth and in heaven that were foreshadowed. The body of the sacrifice was burned and the smoke of the ashes ascended up to heaven.   

Heb 9:11  But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 
Heb 9:12  Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 
Heb 9:13  For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

oops.. did it twice--:)

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If you enter death as a born-again, sanctified and transformed man, you rise again IN THE FLESH but with "celestial glory".

What sanctifies you?  Flesh is not celestial and you should be looking for a celestial body which is the hope of glory which is the body of Christ after His ascension. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Cntrysner

[enoob57]

Maybe it's God trying to straighten out your doctrine  and don't get your shorts in a wad I'm just teasing you
                                                            not about the doctrine though 

[Still Alive]

On 1/20/2022 at 6:45 AM, Uriah said:

There a number of views on this, and it can be challenging to describe. I have heard it connected with statements telling of the universe becoming a spiritual existence or the continuation of Earth indefinitely remaining in a blissful a paradise, which I tend to support.  We need scriptures to guide us. Let's share some varying insights on this. 

One I've come to recently: Our state will return to what we were created for in the beginning. It is described in Genesis in the form of the relationship Adam and Eve had with each other and with God, and his instruction to them.