Does Modern Church Structure Closely Model the NT Church?

[Starise]

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Open Question: If you were in a position of oversight within the body of Christ what guidelines for fellowshipping would you recommend be followed by those in your care?

2Co 11:26-28  I have been in travels often, perils of rivers, perils of robbers, perils from my countrymen, perils from the Gentiles, perils in the city, perils in the wilderness, perils in the sea, perils among false brothers;  (27)  in labor and travail, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, and in cold and nakedness.  (28)  Besides those things that are outside, there is that which presses on me daily: devotional concern for all the assemblies.

Our pastor made a statement I have never heard uttered anywhere before. Whether it was original or not I can't say, but I have heard him say it more than once. What he said isn't new. It was the way his statement made me think about fellowship that  was new. It was a realistic view bumps and all. It was simply to say, " Brother you will sin against me and I will sin against you".

Sometimes I think the expectation is that since we are all believers we should be above those petty things that bother others. We take pride in being brothers and sisters in Christ or in our supposed ability to rise above it all.

None of this is true of course because we DO sin against one another, so I think the expectation should be that we are always prepared to forgive those offenses when they come, not if they come. They will come make no mistake and I am reminded of the Lord's prayer-" and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." I would say love and always be prepared to forgive. 

In Luke we have the parable about the brother who is trying to remove the speck in his brothers eye while he has a beam in his own eye. It is with this realization that we can learn to forgive.

I think true fellowship involves more than a superficial relationship with a person. We need to make real friends in church and not have only acquaintances. Is a brother or a sister not someone who we see as close?

"There is a friend that is close than a brother". Be that friend.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Starise

[BibleGuy]

On 1/26/2022 at 11:44 AM, Starise said:

Thoughts? Do you think  NT church structure looked similar to modern day church structure? If not, what are the differences? 

The NT church affirmed/upheld/taught Torah-obedience.

Over the past 2000 years, the churches have largely abandoned this Biblical teaching/requirement for various reasons.

It's time to return to truly authentic Biblical Torah-obedient faith!

Blessings...

 

[Starise]

Shalom BibleGuy,

The Torah, the first 5 books of the bible is absolutely an inseparable part of scripture.

I am assuming your reference to the Torah is the texts for which you find these requirements.

I believe that in order to support a carry over we need clear instructions for it since much of the law involving the daily sacrifices and methods used to worship Yahweh no longer hold true. Neither is the Torah to be negated because it reflects the mind and heart of God, today I see the rules and regulations in the Torah mostly in concept through the shed blood of Christ.

I would need a much more narrow definition of these requirements in order to know more precisely what it is you are referring to.

-What these requirements were EXACTLY with clear support for these things as added to the blood of Christ and required by God Himself.

- Who these supposed requirements would have been directed to. Was there a specific group of persons this applies to or did it apply to all Christians?

[Starise]

On 3/3/2022 at 6:23 PM, Selah7 said:

My understanding is that the apostle John was taken spiritually into the future to witness all of these things, and he wrote from the time of the end and even beyond into the millennium.  John is not writing from the first century; rather, he is writing from the period he was spiritually carried to by our Lord, which is the time we are currently living in!

While I side with the view that the first few chapters of Revelation were indeed written to those specific groups at that specific time, more can be read into the text as traits of various modern churches. We see those same types of churches even today. In my opinion it only pertains to modern churches in those passages and isn't expressly dual meaning. 

I don't take those ideas into the entirety of Revelation though. The book itself is not sequential, it is prophetic in nature but it begins with the 'now' of that time which is in our distant past. Most certainly any true study of Revelation needs to rely on other texts. Definitely not a stand alone volume so far as understanding it goes.

[BibleGuy]

4 minutes ago, Starise said:

Shalom BibleGuy,

The Torah, the first 5 books of the bible is absolutely an inseparable part of scripture.

I am assuming your reference to the Torah is the texts for which you find these requirements.

I believe that in order to support a carry over we need clear instructions for it since much of the law involving the daily sacrifices and methods used to worship Yahweh no longer hold true. Neither is the Torah to be negated because it reflects the mind and heart of God, today I see the rules and regulations in the Torah mostly in concept through the shed blood of Christ.

I would need a much more narrow definition of these requirements in order to know more precisely what it is you are referring to.

-What these requirements were EXACTLY with clear support for these things as added to the blood of Christ and required by God Himself.

- Who these supposed requirements would have been directed to. Was there a specific group of persons this applies to or did it apply to all Christians?

Hello Friend,

Thanks for the thoughtful questions.

I'd be glad to share my opinion, if you're curious to know.

1. I define "Torah of Moses" as generally Ex. 20 through the end of Deuteronomy.  That's where most of the Torahs (laws) are found.  Only a few laws appear earlier in Exodus, and only a few in Genesis.  And, the laws in Genesis are not the laws of MOSES, because he wasn't even born yet.  That's why I do NOT equate "Pentateuch" with "Torah of Moses".

2. Mt. 28:19-20 applies all Jesus' commands to all disciples.  Jesus commands us to follow (thus obey) Him and His teachings.  Jesus' teachings uphold even the smallest of Torah instructions (Mt. 5:19).  That's your "carryover".  Not to mention Jesus inaugurates the New Covenant (Lk.22) in which the Torah is written upon our very hearts (Jer.31:31-33;Heb. 8:8-10;Heb. 10:16) so that we OBEY it (Dt. 30:14 applies to YOU in Rom. 10:8).

3. Daily sacrifices continued into the 1st century.  Many 1st-century believers were animal-sacrificing priests (Ac. 6:7).  There's no conflict with New Covenant faith in the Messiah and animal sacrifices.  Jesus commands sacrificial activity, at the altar, explicitly here (Mt. 5:24).

4. Animal sacrificial activity will again be fully restored to us, as the Israelite people of God (i.e., His Church).  Sauce:  Dt. 30:1-8; Zec. 14;Eze. 40-46;Is. 66:21-23;Jer. 33:19-22; Mal. 3:1-4.  So it's definitely not canceled/terminated!  Just temporarily not observable due to our present diaspora.

5. We don't add to the blood of Christ.  His blood purifies us from all sin.  We don't earn our salvation.  It's always been by faith....even from the time of Abraham....but even Abraham obeyed the Torahs of God available to him at that time....as an expression of Abraham's faith.

6. The "exact" requirements are: Mt. 5:19-20.  The Torah points to the Messiah (Dt. 18).  The Messiah points us to Torah (Mt. 4:4;5:19;7:21-23;13:41-42;23:2-3,23,34;Lk. 10:27-28).  Jesus IS the Torah-made-flesh (Jn.1:14).  He did not come to cancel Himself!

7. The Torah of Moses applies to ALL Israel (Mal. 4:4).  We Christians are included as fellow Israelites, grafted into the same Israelite olive tree, partaking in the same Israelites covenants between God and ISRAEL.  The only way you can partake in the New Covenant between God and Israel (Jer. 31;Lk.22;Heb.8) is if you are accepted as a fellow ISRAELITE!  And in this New Covenant, that same Torah of Moses is applied to our HEARTS so that we OBEY IT (Jer. 31;Heb.8;Heb.10).  Thus Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom. 10:8.

 

Anyway, hope this helps you better see my opinion on this stuff....

And, the thread here is about the "true church".  Well, the "true church" should walk in this Torah truth.  That can help us identify who/what the "true church" is....and what the "true church" should be doing.....and how the "true church" should be identified. 

Needless to say, most of us in the church don't even know who we are (ISRAELITES!), nor do we know how we should live (TORAH!)

We all have much to learn!

blessings...

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

On 1/27/2022 at 6:14 AM, Starise said:

Thoughts? Do you think  NT church structure looked similar to modern day church structure? If not, what are the differences? 

Yes it clearly does -

`I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the PRE-EMINENCE among them, does not receive us. Therefore if i come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, purring them out of the church, (gathering). `(3 John 9 & 10)

`For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you on the face.` (2 Cor. 12: 20)

`Where there are envy, strife and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when says, "I am of Paul." and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?` (1 Cor. 3: 3 & 4)

`I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot.....I will spew you out of my mouth. because you say, "I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked - ` (Rev. 3: 15 - 17)

 

[Robtay7123]

I don't think the modern church is anywhere close to the New Testament church,  except where Paul has to speak harshly of the rampant sin in the church. The church today is very political and changes its position so as not to offend. We in America have a pretty disobedient and cowardly church. Fortunately,  Jesus won't judge us based on which church we attend,  but on whether we know him and have received his wonderful free gift of salvation. Amen.

[BibleGuy]

On 4/20/2022 at 8:05 PM, Robtay7123 said:

I don't think the modern church is anywhere close to the New Testament church,  except where Paul has to speak harshly of the rampant sin in the church. The church today is very political and changes its position so as not to offend. We in America have a pretty disobedient and cowardly church. Fortunately,  Jesus won't judge us based on which church we attend,  but on whether we know him and have received his wonderful free gift of salvation. Amen.

Also, the New Testament church apostles taught growth in obedience to Torah.....something widely opposed in modern churches.

[Dennis1209]

On 1/26/2022 at 1:44 PM, Starise said:

Thoughts? Do you think  NT church structure looked similar to modern day church structure? If not, what are the differences? 

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

In one word, I'd say, "denominations." I also do not recall a bunch of cathedrals decked out with precious ornaments, clergy in red & scarlet garb, praying to the saints and the mother of Jesus. Paying large sums of money for indulgences, and giving last rites to name a few. 

The early churches appear to have been underground churches to limit persecution. Today, many nations still have the freedom to openly worship in public. I believe in the not-too-distant future underground churches will reappear for the same reasons. 

 

[Robtay7123]

23 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Also, the New Testament church apostles taught growth in obedience to Torah.....something widely opposed in modern churches.

I'm not sure what you mean by obedience to the Torah. You don't mean telling gentiles to follow Moses law do you?