All Christians believe in predestination

[Michael37]

5 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Eph 1:5 Having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Here are some analogies I like with regard to the verse quoted:

Thanks to the Local Body Government who were willing and pleased to reticulate fresh water to my address, all going well I'm predestined to partake of it whenever I exercise my will to turn on the taps. 

Thanks to the people who were willing and pleased to construct State Highway 1 in my country, all going well I'm predestined to arrive at the Capital City of Wellington whenever I exercise my will to travel south on it from my location here in Hamilton City.

The point is that predestination and freewill are not mutually exclusive but married and supportive of each other. 

"Things predestined are determining factors of things freely chosen, and things freely chosen result in things predetermined." Michael 37.

[Sparks]

5 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

With man, it is not in his nature to choose God ...

Says who?

[missmuffet]

26 minutes ago, Sparks said:

Says who?

I don't think we are born to love God. 

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Here are some analogies I like with regard to the verse quoted:

Thanks to the Local Body Government who were willing and pleased to reticulate fresh water to my address, all going well I'm predestined to partake of it whenever I exercise my will to turn on the taps. 

Thanks to the people who were willing and pleased to construct State Highway 1 in my country, all going well I'm predestined to arrive at the Capital City of Wellington whenever I exercise my will to travel south on it from my location here in Hamilton City.

The point is that predestination and freewill are not mutually exclusive but married and supportive of each other. 

Thanks Michael, but if that was at all what predestination was about, that might work. Nothing in the Local Body Government, etc. determines that you will turn the tap to get your water. A destination, is the final outcome, not a possibility, it is where things end up. Pre-destination, is a pre-outcome, not a pre-ability or pre-possibility. What God determines to happen, happens.

Why did God raise pharaoh up?

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very reason I raised you up, in order to demonstrate my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the earth."

God had a plan, He executed that plan. Yes, He gave Pharaoh a choice, and Pharaoh made a few of those. Eventually though God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would choose the wrong thing, and God's power would be demonstrated - no one can resist God's will and purpose. Choice becomes more of an illusion that a reality, or could Pharaoh really defy God and win? I don't think so, no more that Jonah could successfully avoid God's will to go to Nineveh, in spite of Jonah's free will. Letting us make choices (which lead to our own destruction anyway) does not mean that God has no free will! He does not surrender His sovereignty.

Jacob was predestined to be in the lineage of Christ, Esau was not. Esau pleaded, but did not get his way, because it was God's choice that mattered, not man's choice. 

I frankly do not get the thinking of many here, people are saying that God is of such noble character, that He would rather have people be separated from Him in eternity, just so they can have the dignity of choosing to go to Hell with their free will?

Many here seem certain that they choose God. Do we forget:

10as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

From scripture, answer for yourselves, How many seek for God? If you raised your hand and said "I did. I did", who is lying or mistaken, you, or scripture?

I am a dad of 5 kids. If I have a relationship as a father with my child, I am going to limit there choices for their own good, that is what fatherly love does.

There is a chain of events, that we are not given a choice to opt out of:

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Certainly we know, that glorification is the destination, our being finally conformed to the image of Christ in eternity. It starts with foreknowledge and ends (destination) in glorification. Whether this is a sequence and a normal understanding of words would indicate or not is irrelevant, because there is a list that of "alsos". ALL these things happen, and to insist that somewhere there is a choice to thwart God, is a huge leap, but it is not scripture.

I know it is hard to see free will and predestination or election as compatible. I know also that some of us remember when we chose to follow Jesus. Certainly we experienced that, and we have opinions based on our personal experiences. What we cannot know with our feelings about it, is whether or not we chose Him based upon our free will decision, or whether in the spiritual realm (where we cannot see) it was God who chose us first, to chose Him. The fact that these things might seem incompatible, is not evidence that they are. We are full us misconceptions, and why wouldn't we be, having the kind of hearts that we have?

"The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?"

Perhaps, as has been suggested by someone, it is a matter of perspective. Perspective, not interpretation. We look at things from our human perspective, and we cannot see what is going on from a heavenly point of view. We approach the gates of heaven, and see the sign outside which reads:

"All who will, may come". So, we enter the gates and turn around to see the sign on the inside which reads:

"Welcome all you who were chosen before the foundation of the world, enter into the joy of your Lord!"

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

Says who?

Whoever is the wisdom behind scripture, that is Who. I really doubt that you do not know the answer to your own question.

[Sparks]

33 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Whoever is the wisdom behind scripture, that is Who. I really doubt that you do not know the answer to your own question.

Oh?  So, which scripture said it's not in our nature to choose God?  By the way, cows do eat cows.

Your posted scripture from Romans was about keeping the law in the past, which we cannot do. 

Keep reading what Romans 3 says:

Romans 3:21-22 (NLT) 21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

There is the choice of having faith for Jesus, once again.  Have faith, and be saved.  A personal freewill choice for everyone.

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, Sparks said:

  By the way, cows do eat cows.

Are you saying that cows eat meat by the preference of their nature, or are you just missing the point!

From Africsite.com:

The fact that cows cannot digest meat can never be overemphasized. Since cows are herbivores, their digestive system is intended for grass and comparable feedstuff. To add on, cows are ruminants and so they digest feed differently. This means that their digestive system is not equipped to handle meat.

There teeth are designed for pulverizing plants, and tenderizing meat. If they eat too much meat (not a lot) they can get sick, have organ malfunctions, and even die. The can lose the gut bacteria that helps them digest plants . . . etc.

Nature is not just about inclination, it is about what something is suited to. The natural man is not the same as a supernatural man. Super, means above or beyond. That is why we must be born again to see the kingdom of God, without the new birth (born from above) we are stuck in our old nature, the one that does not seek God, as I have already shown from scripture.

God GIVES the new birth, to those He first draws, it ia 100% God, 0% man, in spite of man's high self opinion that seeks to rob God of His glory, or at least share it with Him. But you know all this!

When we are born from above, not only can we know seek for God, we will, THEN we can choose, and this not of yourselves, is is the GIFT (you did nothing to get it, or else it is not a gift) of God, lest any man should boast!

[Sparks]

5 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Are you saying that cows eat meat by the preference of their nature, or are you just missing the point!

I am saying farmers feed their cows, cow meat, and they will eat it.  It's effectively where mad cow disease came from.  Today, farmers think they are being clever feeding cows, pig meat.  They will eat it.  They will take no notice of it. They digest it.  They grow huge because of it.

5 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

That is why we must be born again to see the kingdom of God, without the new birth (born from above) we are stuck in our old nature, the one that does not seek God, as I have already shown from scripture.

So, I see you have no actual scripture.  It's OK that it's just your opinion though.  

Your scripture:

"no one seeks for God."

This means exactly what it says, no one seeks for God.  This is not the same as saying it's not in our nature to seek God, or that we have no ability to seek God, or that we won't seek God again, one day, or that we once did seek God.  It meant that at the moment of the quote, 'no one seeks God.'  It's like saying no one at Worthy yodels.  I does not mean they lack the ability to yodel.

What scripture says that "With man, it is not in his nature to choose God ..."?  The answer is: none 

This is simply something that Calvinists like to say, but I see no evidence for their claim. 

[Sparks]

2 hours ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

Freewill.....what would happen if the Lord showed you his will for your life in a certain area, he kept showing you it....would you still have the freewill to say no....of course you would, but would you dare say no ,knowingly to the will of God in that area?

Ask any Satanist this question.  They can answer it best as they have already used their freewill to walk away from God.   Many Satanists have died with their back to God.  So have atheist, agnostics, Buddhists, and so on.  Each made a freewill choice.

[enoob57]

22 minutes ago, Sparks said:

This is simply something that Calvinists like to say, but I see no evidence for their claim. 

This is a reference to all humanity

Romans 1:18 (KJV)

[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Notice the progression ... well if total depravity were true (as the calvinist teach) then verse 20 says they are response abled and without excuse...