God`s Purpose for the Rapture.

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think I'll wait for your response to my response on your understanding of "kosmos". On this hangs much more than just denying a plainly worded scripture.

Take care Sister.

Hi Ad Hoc,

Thank you for graciously pointing out that I had missed responding to your comments on `kosmos.` 

So we agree that the Kosmos is the orderly arrangement of things, lit. or fig. moral. I will refer to it as the world system. Now you are saying that God gave that to man - the earth and the world System.

I would say that you agree we need to look at all the scriptures on a subject and not just one. I`ll post a few.

1. The Earth. I wrote that I see that God gave Man dominion of the earth. (Gen. 1: 28) That does not mean that God gave the earth away. God is very much upholding the earth and the functioning of it. (Heb. 1: 3)

2. The World System. In Gen. 9: 5 & 6, we see that God gave man responsibility to govern themselves, however the final accounting would be to God. God addresses the `life blood,` and therefore under that lesser crimes are included. 

God later made His nation of Israel to rule the other nations. When they eventually rebelled God gave the Gentiles a specific time for them to rule over the people. 

`You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has GIVEN you a kingdom, power strength and glory.` (Dan. 2: 37) 

Later we see God judging that nation of Babylon.  

`God has numbered your kingdom and finished it.` (Dan. 5: 26)

 

Even that much we see that God has NOT given away the World System, but is very much involved in setting it up and judging it.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[AdHoc]

8 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

1. The Earth. I wrote that I see that God gave Man dominion of the earth. (Gen. 1: 28) That does not mean that God gave the earth away. God is very much upholding the earth and the functioning of it. (Heb. 1: 3)

I think we were discussing our Lord's statement to Pilate - about His kingdom not being of this world.

That God sustains and maintains the universe is not in dispute. And it was God, not me, who said in Psalm 115 that He gave the earth to men;

16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

You see, it is to the MAN Jesus that He inherits ALL THINGS (Hebrews 1). Verse 6 he is "begotten", in verse 9 He has "fellows" and in verse 14 there are co-heirs. As the Son of God He has no beginning and no peers. It is only as a Man that He is one of many men.

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think we were discussing our Lord's statement to Pilate - about His kingdom not being of this world.

That God sustains and maintains the universe is not in dispute. And it was God, not me, who said in Psalm 115 that He gave the earth to men;

16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

You see, it is to the MAN Jesus that He inherits ALL THINGS (Hebrews 1). Verse 6 he is "begotten", in verse 9 He has "fellows" and in verse 14 there are co-heirs. As the Son of God He has no beginning and no peers. It is only as a Man that He is one of many men.

That wasn`t clear to me that we were only discussing what Jesus said to Pilate for you specifically said for me to write on the word `kosmos.` 

Jesus was saying that His rulership was not of (or from) this world. It was from the Father. I wrote that previously.

Now you seem stuck on one scripture when we need to look at all of God`s word on a topic. Otherwise we put our meaning upon it, whereas God`s word gives the full picture. 

You have not addressed anything I have written especially that which you asked for. Why is that?

And yes the Man Christ Jesus inherits all because He became a man and took back dominion of the earth and its people from Satan who had usurped control over it. 

[AdHoc]

On 2/3/2022 at 1:29 AM, Marilyn C said:

The `kingdom` means rule and that is FROM heaven. Remember Jesus told Pilate that His Kingdom/rule was not of (from) this world. Meaning that it is God the Father who has given Him the authority to rule. (Ps. 2: 6) No one on earth has the authority to give to the Lord His rulership. (John 18: 36)

Also remember that the world and all they within it are God`s. (Ps. 24: 1) He made it and them and NEVER gave it away. It is all of God`s great kingdom. He rules over all. It is just the rebellious rulership that He is dealing with. (1 Cor. 15: 25)

 

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

That wasn`t clear to me that we were only discussing what Jesus said to Pilate for you specifically said for me to write on the word `kosmos.` 

Jesus was saying that His rulership was not of (or from) this world. It was from the Father. I wrote that previously.

Now you seem stuck on one scripture when we need to look at all of God`s word on a topic. Otherwise we put our meaning upon it, whereas God`s word gives the full picture. 

You have not addressed anything I have written especially that which you asked for. Why is that?

And yes the Man Christ Jesus inherits all because He became a man and took back dominion of the earth and its people from Satan who had usurped control over it. 

The posting above is what we where discussing. Remember? You used Pilate as a proof that rule is from heaven. The second paragraph I answered from Psalms, and you have not accepted the wording. But I concede that you could be right about it been "given to men for ruling). So I have dealt with your second paragraph. It is the first paragraph that you have given up on.

In the most friendly way, I would like to point out that I answered you concerning Pilate and you are yet to reply to that. I don't mind moving on, as long as you agree that your argument concerning Pilate tried to use it as geographical position when it actually meant "an arrangement of things" (politically in this case). If so, then you could not use the Pilate/Christ exchange to show rule from the PLACE heaven.

Then, we could leave off everything, shake hands, and wait for the next thread to exchange ideas. I'm actually sorry that your thread did not stir up more activity. It was a good subject.

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

 

The posting above is what we where discussing. Remember? You used Pilate as a proof that rule is from heaven. The second paragraph I answered from Psalms, and you have not accepted the wording. But I concede that you could be right about it been "given to men for ruling). So I have dealt with your second paragraph. It is the first paragraph that you have given up on.

In the most friendly way, I would like to point out that I answered you concerning Pilate and you are yet to reply to that. I don't mind moving on, as long as you agree that your argument concerning Pilate tried to use it as geographical position when it actually meant "an arrangement of things" (politically in this case). If so, then you could not use the Pilate/Christ exchange to show rule from the PLACE heaven.

Then, we could leave off everything, shake hands, and wait for the next thread to exchange ideas. I'm actually sorry that your thread did not stir up more activity. It was a good subject.

Hi Ad Hoc,

Thank you concerning the `good subject.` Thus I do appreciate your interaction and probably pleased that we have had no interruptions. I don`t think many people have thought on this topic from God`s perspective and just tend to write on the pre- post threads. So again much appreciated.

I think I have not understood what you asked and now you have made it clearer for me. Yes I see what you are saying about the Political and geographic areas. 

Actually I can show that what the Lord said to Pilate involves the place and the rulership. We need to look at more scriptures associated with that. We would both agree that it is the Father who appoints His Son as King. 

`I have set my King on my holy hill of Mount Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6)

Thus is it not man or from earth that the Lord has His authority. And where does that rulership reside?  `On God`s holy hill Mount Zion. And that is in the highest realm, the third heaven.

`You have come to Mount Zion .... to God.....to Jesus...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

And we know that the Lord`s kingship is as KingPriest. (Heb. 6: 20) Then we see that His sanctuary is in the highest realm. 

`We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the Majesty in the heavens. a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected and not man.` (Heb. 8: 1 & 2)

Then we note something very interesting -

`...for if He were on earth, He would NOT be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law.` (Heb. 8: 4)

It is only in the highest realm that the two offices of King and priest function. All lower realms have those two offices separate.

This to me is what Jesus was referring to when He spoke to Pilate saying His kingdom/rulership in not of/from this world but by the Father in Mount Zion. And that rulership is of the order of Melchizadek, King priest and only operational from the third heaven.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

Thank you concerning the `good subject.` Thus I do appreciate your interaction and probably pleased that we have had no interruptions. I don`t think many people have thought on this topic from God`s perspective and just tend to write on the pre- post threads. So again much appreciated.

I think I have not understood what you asked and now you have made it clearer for me. Yes I see what you are saying about the Political and geographic areas. 

Actually I can show that what the Lord said to Pilate involves the place and the rulership. We need to look at more scriptures associated with that. We would both agree that it is the Father who appoints His Son as King. 

`I have set my King on my holy hill of Mount Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6)

Thus is it not man or from earth that the Lord has His authority. And where does that rulership reside?  `On God`s holy hill Mount Zion. And that is in the highest realm, the third heaven.

`You have come to Mount Zion .... to God.....to Jesus...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

And we know that the Lord`s kingship is as KingPriest. (Heb. 6: 20) Then we see that His sanctuary is in the highest realm. 

`We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the Majesty in the heavens. a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected and not man.` (Heb. 8: 1 & 2)

Then we note something very interesting -

`...for if He were on earth, He would NOT be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law.` (Heb. 8: 4)

It is only in the highest realm that the two offices of King and priest function. All lower realms have those two offices separate.

This to me is what Jesus was referring to when He spoke to Pilate saying His kingdom/rulership in not of/from this world but by the Father in Mount Zion. And that rulership is of the order of Melchizadek, King priest and only operational from the third heaven.

regards, Marilyn.

 

Greetings to you too.

When Moses built the Tabernacle, he was shown a "Pattern" of the heavenly tabernacle to copy. That is, there is first the heavenly, and then a copy on earth. In Revelation 4 we find 24 Elders in heaven. David raised up 24 courses of Priests to serve the earthly Tabernacle. Again, the heavenly set up on earth. We know that Jesus would meet the thief crucified next to Him in a Paradise in Hades beneath the earth. But Revelation 2:7 shows a "Paradise" - not of the souls of dead men, but a "Paradise OF GOD". That is, one in heaven and a copy under the earth.

So also with Zion. "Zion" appears in 153 verses and "Sion" in another 9 verses in the whole Bible. TWO times, this Zion is obviously in heaven (Heb.12:22, Rev.14:1). The overwhelmingly large number of rest are obviously ON EARTH - a hill/mountain in Jerusalem. So here is the test. If you are unsure where Zion is in any scripture, speak it out aloud and see whether that could possibly be heaven. Take Micah 4:1-3 for instance. Will the Lord's reign go out from Zion in Jerusalem, or heaven. And where will he live - that is, where will His house be? I'll let you decide.

And as for Hebrews 8, the context there is Christ's SUPERIOR priesthood as contrasted with the Levitical Priesthood. The theme of Hebrews is that ex-Jews, who had embraced Christ, wanted to return to Moses because the blessings were immediate. Hebrews shows the SUPERIORITY of Christ in all things pertaining to Israel's religion. In Chapter 8 He is a heavenly High Priest who negotiates the New Covenant for Israel versus the High Priest of Levi who must slay and slay and slay and never get remission of sins. It does not address the Millennium when Christ has returned to earth. That, the closing chapters of Ezekiel do. There you can see the Priesthood according to Law under Zadok serving Emanuel in Jerusalem.

But what think ye of Isaiah 24:23?

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

[Marilyn C]

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Greetings to you too.

When Moses built the Tabernacle, he was shown a "Pattern" of the heavenly tabernacle to copy. That is, there is first the heavenly, and then a copy on earth. In Revelation 4 we find 24 Elders in heaven. David raised up 24 courses of Priests to serve the earthly Tabernacle. Again, the heavenly set up on earth. We know that Jesus would meet the thief crucified next to Him in a Paradise in Hades beneath the earth. But Revelation 2:7 shows a "Paradise" - not of the souls of dead men, but a "Paradise OF GOD". That is, one in heaven and a copy under the earth.

So also with Zion. "Zion" appears in 153 verses and "Sion" in another 9 verses in the whole Bible. TWO times, this Zion is obviously in heaven (Heb.12:22, Rev.14:1). The overwhelmingly large number of rest are obviously ON EARTH - a hill/mountain in Jerusalem. So here is the test. If you are unsure where Zion is in any scripture, speak it out aloud and see whether that could possibly be heaven. Take Micah 4:1-3 for instance. Will the Lord's reign go out from Zion in Jerusalem, or heaven. And where will he live - that is, where will His house be? I'll let you decide.

And as for Hebrews 8, the context there is Christ's SUPERIOR priesthood as contrasted with the Levitical Priesthood. The theme of Hebrews is that ex-Jews, who had embraced Christ, wanted to return to Moses because the blessings were immediate. Hebrews shows the SUPERIORITY of Christ in all things pertaining to Israel's religion. In Chapter 8 He is a heavenly High Priest who negotiates the New Covenant for Israel versus the High Priest of Levi who must slay and slay and slay and never get remission of sins. It does not address the Millennium when Christ has returned to earth. That, the closing chapters of Ezekiel do. There you can see the Priesthood according to Law under Zadok serving Emanuel in Jerusalem.

But what think ye of Isaiah 24:23?

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Hi Ad Hoc,

As God`s main focus is on the earth and dealing with Israel throughout the OT, then of course we see many scriptures referring to the earthly Zion. That is the place where King David ruled from.

Then the heavenly Zion we know is where the Father has appointed His Son. (Ps. 2: 6) And Hebrews tells us that that is in the angelic realm. (Heb. 12: 22 - 24) I believe what God says there. 

Note that the Lord will rule on the earth by His Spirit through kings and priests. (separate offices)

Then in the New Jerusalem the Lord will also rule by His Spirit through kings and priests. (separate offices).

Finally in the angelic realm we see that the Lord will rule in His glorified body WITH His Body who are kingpriests. (two offices together.)

 

Note in the millennium a man called king David, who has sons will be the king regent over Israel for a time. (Ez. 37: 24,  Jer. 30: 9)  

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

As God`s main focus is on the earth and dealing with Israel throughout the OT, then of course we see many scriptures referring to the earthly Zion. That is the place where King David ruled from.

Then the heavenly Zion we know is where the Father has appointed His Son. (Ps. 2: 6) And Hebrews tells us that that is in the angelic realm. (Heb. 12: 22 - 24) I believe what God says there. 

Note that the Lord will rule on the earth by His Spirit through kings and priests. (separate offices)

Then in the New Jerusalem the Lord will also rule by His Spirit through kings and priests. (separate offices).

Finally in the angelic realm we see that the Lord will rule in His glorified body WITH His Body who are kingpriests. (two offices together.)

 

Note in the millennium a man called king David, who has sons will be the king regent over Israel for a time. (Ez. 37: 24,  Jer. 30: 9)  

OK. There is just one last thing. You can't pit scripture against scripture. That annuls the veracity of the Bible. If arguments are brought using scripture, you must address those scriptures to show that they have been wrongly read. Now, if you read through your posts, and the one above, the first thing you'll notice is that not one of the scriptures plainly states that Christ will return to heaven after Revelation 19 and reign from there. In my last posting I produced a prophecy that said plainly that the Lord would reign in Jerusalem - gloriously.

Since this has not happened, and our Lord was murdered the last time He was in Jerusalem, don't you think you'll have to rethink your understanding?

I don't mind either way, but its nice to embrace such a bulk of evidence.

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

OK. There is just one last thing. You can't pit scripture against scripture. That annuls the veracity of the Bible. If arguments are brought using scripture, you must address those scriptures to show that they have been wrongly read. Now, if you read through your posts, and the one above, the first thing you'll notice is that not one of the scriptures plainly states that Christ will return to heaven after Revelation 19 and reign from there. In my last posting I produced a prophecy that said plainly that the Lord would reign in Jerusalem - gloriously.

Since this has not happened, and our Lord was murdered the last time He was in Jerusalem, don't you think you'll have to rethink your understanding?

I don't mind either way, but its nice to embrace such a bulk of evidence.

Hi Ad Hoc,

We agree that the Lord will reign in Jerusalem. (BTW does He reign IN your heart?) So we need more scriptures to show us whether that is physical or by His Spirit.

God`s word says that the Lord will reign in Jerusalem and in the angelic realm. As He has a glorified body then He needs to be physically in one place and by His spirit in the other.

Now the Father has `set` His Son`s throne in Mount Zion in the angelic realm. Thus that is where He will rule and reign from. (Ps. 2: 6,  Heb. 12: 22

Then we know that He comes to earth to deliver Israel and judge the nations. Following that He sets up His kingdom rule through Israel. A man called David, who has sons, will reign as King Regent and there are also priests. (Ez. 37: 24,   Jer. 30: 9,  Isa. 66: 21)

Finally the Lord being `king over all the earth,` ascends into glory again.

`Oh clap your hands, all you peoples! Shout to God with the voice of triumph! For the Lord, Most High is awesome; He is a great King over all the earth.

He will subdue the peoples under us, and the nations under our feet. He will choose our inheritance for us. The excellence of Jacob whom He loves. Selah.

God has GONE UP WITH A SHOUT, the Lord with the voice of a trumpet. 

Sing praises to our King, sing praises! For God is the King of all the earth. God reigns over the nations; God sits on His holy throne.

The princes of the people have gathered together, the people of the God of Abraham, for the shields of the earth belong to God; He is greatly exalted.` (Ps. 47)

[AdHoc]

5 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

We agree that the Lord will reign in Jerusalem. (BTW does He reign IN your heart?) So we need more scriptures to show us whether that is physical or by His Spirit.

Well said. Jerusalem it is. Our Lord Jesus has a body. It will be in Jerusalem. Our Lord Jesus is also the Spirit (Jn.14:17-20, Rom.8:10), but He is in the spirits of the Believer ONLY. And it is not Christ that reigns in our hearts, but His "peace" (Col.3:15)

 

10 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

God`s word says that the Lord will reign in Jerusalem and in the angelic realm. As He has a glorified body then He needs to be physically in one place and by His spirit in the other.

I doubt it.

5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands

15 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Finally the Lord being `king over all the earth,` ascends into glory again.

I wish you'd give a verse or two for this. Psalm 47 does not say this. "King OVER" means the extent of His realm. Elizabeth is Queen OVER the British Empire - but she is on earth.

Just suppose you admit that our Lord Jesus resides on earth in the Temple of Ezekiel, and is truly Emanuel - God with us. What of His glory would suffer? God is honored when a Man rules the earth for despite all efforts of His multiple enemies, His councils of Genesis 1:26-28 is realized. If He must reside in heaven, He is not in His realm - the realm of men made of the earth and nourished by the earth - for the earth.