The Last trump

[truth7t7]

52 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

Diaste, what you and I think it is doesn't change what it actually is. My prayer is may we be counted worthy to respond when the last trump sounds.

I just don't see anything in the 7th trumpet passage in Revelation that points to a rapture. Here is the passage - Revelation 11:15-19 (NKJV) - 

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

Forget that both passages mention the phrase "last trump" for a second. What in the description that follows alludes to "rapture"? For example in 1 Corinthians 15:51(NKJV)(the description is in bold) - Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So what in the description in Revelation 11:15-19 alludes to "rapture"?

Just because a selected verse surrounding the (Last Trump) dosen't speak of the last day (Catching Up) dosent even suggest it isnt the same 7th or last trump

A Berean looks at the whole of scripture, and there is more than Revelation 11:15-19 that identifies this 7th or (Last Trump)

[kenny2212]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

But I don't see any text to help me understand this is a last trump with a singular specific purpose and sound for believers only. 

 

Oh? So please can you tell me what happens to unbelievers at the sound of the 1 Cor. 15 last trumpet?

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Diaste, what you and I think it is doesn't change what it actually is. My prayer is may we be counted worthy to respond when the last trump sounds.

Amen.

17 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

I just don't see anything in the 7th trumpet passage in Revelation that points to a rapture. Here is the passage - Revelation 11:15-19 (NKJV) - 

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

How about "And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, great and small"? I feel there are quite a few allusions in the Revelation passage.

17 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Forget that both passages mention the phrase "last trump" for a second. What in the description that follows alludes to "rapture"? For example in 1 Corinthians 15:51(NKJV)(the description is in bold) - Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So what in the description in Revelation 11:15-19 alludes to "rapture"?

I think it's a mistake to use what isn't mentioned as though it's a contradiction or can't be a reference to an event. The Gospel of John doesn't record the Olivet Discourse. We don't say the Olivet Discourse is false because it's not in John. 

My point:

We know of one series of trumps associated with the end of the age. We know of a 7th trump that is associated with the end of the age, Jesus coming, and wrath. We know of a last trump that heralds the gathering of the saints.

So the last trump is the 7th trump at the end of the age and is associated with Jesus coming, wrath and the gathering.

 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Oh? So please can you tell me what happens to unbelievers at the sound of the 1 Cor. 15 last trumpet?

1 Cor 15:50-51 doesn't say anything about it. Many other passages do. What are you looking for? I don't see why that matters here. 

What I'm wonder is why the trump has one purpose and one purpose only and where is that description in scripture?

What I see is the last trump, the 7th, is the herald of Christ's coming. Then Jesus begins to accomplish His Father's will within the plan and the first thing Jesus does is send the angels to gather the saints. 

The 7th trump, or last trump, isn't the gathering, it's the call to war and victory, the signal the King is coming. 

This is the idea behind salpigx from 1 Cor 15:

sálpigks – "properly, a war-trumpet" (WS, 797) that boldly announces God's victory (the vanquishing of His enemies).

In the OT, trumpets were used to called God's people to war, and to announce victory wrought by Him. That is, a military clarion that proclaimed the Lord inspired and empowered the victory on behalf of His people.

It's a war trumpet, the clarion of victory, the manifestation of His power and might, not a dinner bell.

The same term is used in Rev 8; they are trumps of war. A call to war and a clarion of victory.

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Oh? So please can you tell me what happens to unbelievers at the sound of the 1 Cor. 15 last trumpet?

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

[Selah7]

9 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Oh? So please can you tell me what happens to unbelievers at the sound of the 1 Cor. 15 last trumpet?

Hi there, Kenny.  Everyone will be changed into their spiritual bodies at the 7th trump.  For those who never were taught the Gospel of Christ, they will hear it in the Millennium which enters in at the 7th trump.  The Great White Throne Judgment follows the Millennium.  

[kenny2212]

On 2/11/2022 at 10:07 AM, Diaste said:

How about "And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, great and small"? I feel there are quite a few allusions in the Revelation passage.

 

 

The rapture is not a reward. It can put one in a position to receive a reward, but it's not a reward in itself. One might as well die to receive his reward.

What if we are raptured to the stellar heavens? Is any reward waiting for us in the stellar heavens? The reward is being with the Lord. And we know the Lord resides in the third heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18(NKJV)(emphasis mine) - 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

There's some reward in this life though.

Luke 18:29-30(NKJV) - 29 So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.”

God bless.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by kenny2212

[Last Daze]

On 2/8/2022 at 3:39 PM, kenny2212 said:

The purpose of this thread is to address the question of whether the last trump mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51 is the same as the seventh trumpet sounded by an angel in Revelation 11:15-19.

        I subscribe to the school of thought that they are not. Why? I'll explain - 

There's a trump of God. 

I agree.  The key I believe is in equating a trumpet sound with someone speaking authoritatively.

• I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet. Rev 1:10

And we know that there is a resurrection when God sounds a trumpet.

• Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come out:  John 5:28-29a

God sounds His trumpet (speaks authoritatively) and there is a resurrection.  Based on that, I believe that the seventh angel sounds his trumpet and Jesus descends to the clouds and sounds His trumpet.

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  1 Thess 4:16

The voice (trumpet) of the archangel (seventh trumpet) sounds and Jesus descends and sounds His trumpet, the voice of His resurrection authority.  Those who are asleep in Christ hear His voice and come out of the tombs.

[Last Daze]

On 2/9/2022 at 4:46 AM, Diaste said:

How would we know it's a last trump unless we knew there were other trumps before it and how many trumps in total?

We know of one series of trumps associated with the end of the age, Christ's return and the gathering, and that is the 7 trumps of Revelation. 

This satisfies the above; We know how many and that other trumps come before it. It's the only clearly identifiable last trump associated with this time.

In a previous post, I showed scripture to support the idea that the trump of God is His voice speaking authoritatively.

• The first trump of God was at Mount Sinai demonstrating His authority over Israel in giving them the law.  Exodus 19-20
• When the angel sounds the seventh trumpet, Jesus descends to the clouds and sounds the last trumpet of God.  The last trumpet is God's resurrection authority over the human race.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Last Daze said:

In a previous post, I showed scripture to support the idea that the trump of God is His voice speaking authoritatively.

• The first trump of God was at Mount Sinai demonstrating His authority over Israel in giving them the law.  Exodus 19-20
• When the angel sounds the seventh trumpet, Jesus descends to the clouds and sounds the last trumpet of God.  The last trumpet is God's resurrection authority over the human race.

Sure. My only issue with the way the trumps are described in the NT prophecies of the end of the age is they are salpigx, trumps of victory and a call to war. It appears this is simultaneous. It's war and victory. 

In Rev 1:10 it's a simile. The voice isn't a trump, it has a quality likened to the sound of a trump. Maybe volume, duration, timbre, tone, etc., Lips red as a rose doesn't mean the lips are a rose.

I guess I have to go with a last trump being an actual last trump and not a last trump in a series of last trumps. How would we know it's the last? Only one way; if we know there is a finite series of trumps and how many, what they are associated with, and when they are set to sound. 

1 Thess 4:

"16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:"

This is a descent with a shout and with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God. That's three sounds, not 1 that's has three aspects. Well, okay...maybe the shout and the voice of the archangel are the same, but still separate from the trump. The trump is and , in addition to.