“Never the Twain Shall Meet”

[WordSword]

What is meant by, “Ye are not in the flesh” (Rom 8:9)? What is “the flesh”? There are only two meanings of the word “flesh”: 1) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast; 2) denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God (Strong's G4561 – sarx, definitions III and IV). In the passage above, as in the majority of NT passages “flesh” refers to definition IV in the Greek dictionary.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4561/kjv/tr/0-1/

The nature of man is in the similitude of Satan (Gen 3:15; Mat 13:38; Jhn 8:44; 1Jo 3:8, 10, 12), and at rebirth the believer is separated (Ro 8:9) from its “dominion” and “damnation (Ro 6:14; 8:1), but not from its presence (Rom 7:17, 20; 1Jo 1:8), nor from its influence. The believer not being in sin is in relation to its curse and its control; and one cannot get in and out of sin, for our separation from it is constant and unchangeable. 

The meaning of not being in sin designs the intention of not seeking after it. Because of the Father’s “work in you” (Phl 2:13) Christian’s will no longer seek to live after sin—but after the Spirit (Gal 5:16, 25): “Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” Here, the sense is not that one can seek to live after the Spirit and after the sin nature. You can only “either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt” (Mat 12:33); this is for the purpose of identifying evil or good, “for the tree is known by his fruit.”

Scripture’s use of language-comparison is to contrast evil and good for identification, and Romans 8 is one of the most applicable examples, especially verse 5: “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.” The word “after” is the key-word of this subject, and is in the sense of one’s will and desire—that of the hearts treasure (Mat 6:21): “A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things (Mat 12:35).“ All are either “carnally minded” or “spiritually minded,” not both (Rom 8:6); and this is not in the same sense as momentarily being “yet carnal,” as “babes in Christ” (1Co 3:1, 3), for these will eventually mature—being “in Christ (v3).” Being “carnal minded” intends a constant and permanent state!

“Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? So can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh” (Jas 3:11, 12). I believe the first contrast between good and evil will always be the best example—which was “The tree of knowledge of good and evil” (Gen 2:17; 3:7), which purpose served as an identification via contrasting God’s holiness with man’s sin nature; and as part of being in God’s image—“becoming as One of Us, to know good and evil” (3:22).
 

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, WordSword said:

What is meant by, “Ye are not in the flesh” (Rom 8:9)? What is “the flesh”? There are only two meanings of the word “flesh”: 1) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast; 2) denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God (Strong's G4561 – sarx, definitions III and IV). In the passage above, as in the majority of NT passages “flesh” refers to definition IV in the Greek dictionary.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4561/kjv/tr/0-1/

The nature of man is in the similitude of Satan (Gen 3:15; Mat 13:38; Jhn 8:44; 1Jo 3:8, 10, 12), and at rebirth the believer is separated (Ro 8:9) from its “dominion” and “damnation (Ro 6:14; 8:1), but not from its presence (Rom 7:17, 20; 1Jo 1:8), nor from its influence. The believer not being in sin is in relation to its curse and its control; and one cannot get in and out of sin, for our separation from it is constant and unchangeable. 

The meaning of not being in sin designs the intention of not seeking after it. Because of the Father’s “work in you” (Phl 2:13) Christian’s will no longer seek to live after sin—but after the Spirit (Gal 5:16, 25): “Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” Here, the sense is not that one can seek to live after the Spirit and after the sin nature. You can only “either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt” (Mat 12:33); this is for the purpose of identifying evil or good, “for the tree is known by his fruit.”

Scripture’s use of language-comparison is to contrast evil and good for identification, and Romans 8 is one of the most applicable examples, especially verse 5: “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.” The word “after” is the key-word of this subject, and is in the sense of one’s will and desire—that of the hearts treasure (Mat 6:21): “A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things (Mat 12:35).“ All are either “carnally minded” or “spiritually minded,” not both (Rom 8:6); and this is not in the same sense as momentarily being “yet carnal,” as “babes in Christ” (1Co 3:1, 3), for these will eventually mature—being “in Christ (v3).” Being “carnal minded” intends a constant and permanent state!

“Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? So can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh” (Jas 3:11, 12). I believe the first contrast between good and evil will always be the best example—which was “The tree of knowledge of good and evil” (Gen 2:17; 3:7), which purpose served as an identification via contrasting God’s holiness with man’s sin nature; and as part of being in God’s image—“becoming as One of Us, to know good and evil” (3:22).
 

I see it more or less the same.

The fruit of the Tree of Knowledge or Good and Evil did its work and brought death. Romans uses the noun "sin" to define it. And the issue of the "sin-nature" is "trespasses" or "sins" (plural). Thus, among others, we have the distinct fulfillment of the "sin Offering" and the "trespass Offering" in Christ's death.

I also see two meanings for the word "flesh". (i) The physical body of both man and beast, and (ii) the corrupt Adamic nature. The context must decide on its meaning every time. We discuss the second meaning here - the "sin-nature". Natural man is dominated by his flesh. His soul is constrained to pander to the flesh. Romans Chapter 7 says that this nature "dwells" in us and thus makes this awful nature personal. Genesis 6:5 shows the fruit - "every imagination only evil continuously". This is a bitter pill for man to swallow and is probably the main reason that men hate the gospel.

The Christian has undergone a rebirth. But according to John 3:6, only the human spirit is reborn. And this birth imparts into our human spirit, the divine nature and life of God (2nd Pet.1:4). From this moment on a war starts. On the one side the Christian has his whole previous life of pandering to the flesh, and on the other a righteous God making His legal demands. It is a bitter war. Galatians 5:17 makes no allowance; "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." The young Christian is hard-pressed to obey the Lord in his spirit.

Romans 7, besides personalizing "sin", also says that this sin is a LAW dwelling in our members. Like gravity, it ALWAYS works. Man is bound by this Law always. That is, until a new LAW is imparted to the man. The New Law, called "the LAW of the Spirit of Life IN Christ Jesus", does not do away with "the LAW of sin and death". The Law of aerodynamics does not do away with the Law of gravity, but if used correctly, it overcomes the Law of gravity. The pilot must at all time "WATCH" lest he stop fulfilling the aerodynamic laws. Flying too slowly is just as fatal as flying too fast. So also the Christian. He must nourish his spirit with God's Word, and he must be ever watchful of the flesh.

The process whereby the Christian matures is very simple, but very painful. From the day of his rebirth, he is encouraged by a loving father to live by the attributes in his spirit. His resources are unlimited, for the very Triune God dwells in him. But he has to learn to put his flesh on the cross. And when he gets weary and tends not to be decisive against the demands of the flesh, God is there with His chastising rod. "Chastisement" is defined as a superior "making a certain road bitter". Hebrews 12 describes how a loving Father applies just enough "bitterness", but never destroys. Unlike God's enemies, whose portion is destruction, God always has in mind the "transformation" of His family.

Our whole life from our conversion onward, is a life of learning to turn to the our spirits - the human Holy of Holies where God, with all the beautiful humanity of Christ dwells - WITH the power to overcome - IF the Christian applies himself and crucifies the protesting flesh.

Edited February 23, 2022 by AdHoc

[grahampaul]

thank you, i needed that.

bless.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, grahampaul said:

thank you, i needed that.

bless.

Hi, and thanks for the encouraging reply!

[Guest]

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

IF the Christian applies himself and crucifies the protesting flesh.

Hi and thanks for the instructional reply! I also find it encouraging to know that all who are reborn are ever working "through the Spirit mortifying the deeds of the body" (Rom 8:13). If they aren't they do not have the Spirit, nor rebirth.

It's my understanding that the "deeds of the body" refer to the outward acting of the physical body. These derive from the inward "body of sin" that are members of the old man or sin nature (Rom 6:6;Col 3:5 ).

 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, WordSword said:

Hi and thanks for the instructional reply! I also find it encouraging to know that all who are reborn are ever working "through the Spirit mortifying the deeds of the body" (Rom 8:13). If they aren't they do not have the Spirit, nor rebirth.

It's my understanding that the "deeds of the body" refer to the outward acting of the physical body. These derive from the inward "body of sin" that are members of the old man or sin nature (Rom 6:6;Col 3:5 ).

 

I agree, but it is complicated. And God's solution is magnificent. Let us weigh up some facts against each other.

Paul, in Romans Chapter 7, comes to a conclusion that, (i) evil dwells in the body, (ii) no good thing dwells in our bodies, (iii) it harbors "the Law of sin and death" and (iv) it will continuously seek to oppose God's requirements. In other scriptures Paul calls it "this vile body", and that we "groan" in this body. God gave up on the body when he banned Adam from the Tree of Life. By shutting the gate to it Adam was doomed to death. The whole New Testament consistently points to death as the solution to the body.

But then we have an amazing thing. A man is supposed to love his body because the standard of love toward his wife must be measured by his love for himself. Even bigger than that is that our "Members" are the members of Christ's (1st Cor.6:15). and our Body is the "Tent", Tabernacle and Temple of God. And what is more, our bodies, being members of Christ's Body, cause the Church a loss when we die. That is why our Lord Jesus, when announcing the Church in Matthew 16 that the Gates of HADES (the place of the dead) will not prevail against the Church. A dead Christian is no longer a member of Christ's Body UNTIL he has a body back.

So we have two very CONTRASTING sides to one coin. And your title could not have been more accurate of the great conflict that is happening in every Christian. So how does God deal with these opposing sides? How does a Holy God (i) have fellowship with such rotten people, (ii) make His Home in such rotten people, and (iii) even love such rotten people. He solves this seeming contradiction in a most sovereign and clever way. the way is found in John 12:24.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

This seeming unrelated verse is the key to all the above problems. Just as Eve was IN Adam, and thus she is WO-man - capable of being "up to the standard of" (a help 'meet' for) Adam, so we Christians are found IN Christ and accorded all that Christ went through. The many grains of wheat were IN the One Grain. In Ephesians, by being IN Christ we are sitting in heaven, even though we are very much on earth. Even a future event like resurrection is accorded to us by being IN Christ (1st Cor.15:22). So also are we "complete" IN Christ in regard to legalities surrounding our sanctification and inheritance in Colossians 2, while at the same time  we are "dead" and "raised" IN Christ in Romans 6 to defy the power of sin - the "sign" of which is Baptism.

Because we are a New Man IN Christ, and "the old is passed away" (2nd Cor.5:17), we are reckoned, by God, as sharing in the following;

1. Christ's flawless human LIFE under the Law. God has tested man, and the best of men cannot keep the Law. So God allows Jesus to live a perfect life under Law and then takes this established righteousness as His and IMPUTES it to us
2. Christ flawless OBEDIENCE outside of Law. Law cannot demand the innocent for the guilty. Christ must know His Father's will, but do it VOLUNTARILY. God could not demand His Son's death for the guilty.
3. Christ's flawless death. A man can die for his sin and sins only, but then he is still dead and still guilty. Jesus, not having come from Adam, was the only man EVER to be qualified to die for others. And to make His death applicable to men of all ages, He has to make His death and resurrection eternal. This could only happen if Jesus was eternal Himself.
4. Christ's flawless resurrection. John 7:39 says that the Spirit could not be given UNTIL Jesus was glorified. Jesus had to pay for EVERY little and big sin ever committed. But more than this He has to satisfy the Father that "sin" (singular) was put away - for it is this that causes death (Rom.5:23). Jesus could only be resurrected if the Father was satisfied that SIN was put away.

All this our portion IN Christ. Because Christ did it, we can benefit from it. Aaron went into the Holy of Holies once a year. He was Aaron the sinner outside the Holy of Holies and he was Aaron the sinner inside the Holy of Holies. The reason he survived that was because of a special sacrifice and a special washing and special clothing. Aaron could do NOTHING to satisfy God. It was all done for him! And his lowly and sinful flesh survived and was even ushered into the presence of God without being slain outright, because he BELIEVED in the power of the sacrifice, the washing and the clothing.

So are we benefited. Christ is our sacrifice, our washing and and our clothing (for we must put on Christ - Rom.13:14, Gal.3:27) and THUS may we be Members of Christ and God's House while still in the flesh. God does not count us OUTSIDE of Christ. Because we had our ORIGIN IN Christ, and are POSITIONED IN Christ, we are counted as clean of sin, perfect in righteousness and dead and resurrected - the ultimate solution which will be realized only after our resurrection.

And the last point of such wisdom by God is that while we are alive and in our flesh, God can avenge Himself. We have a wonderful picture in the Old Testament - that of Amalek. The Amalekites were cowards. They attacked the weak and old stragglers of Israel in the wilderness. They are a picture of the flesh. And so God declared a "perpetual war from generation to generation" between Israel and Amalek. God has locked Israel and Amalek together for a war of revenge. A man is made of three parts, and while he is alive these three parts dwell together (1st Thess.5:23). The Christian is locked to his flesh so that a war MUST BE FOUGHT. In this matter Satan is only peripheral. The sweat and blood of battle is waged with, or without him. Man cannot escape this conflict - the conflict of Galatians 5:17.

So though we are to care for, and cherish, our bodies as (i) members of Christ and (ii) the standard for loving our wives (no asceticism), we must mercilessly put it on the cross. We wash and feed it, but when the flesh wants what is illegal, we treat it with extreme malice. In next Sunday's meeting your spirit will want to praise God, but your flesh will pick out the sister with the short skirt and long legs. The flesh will scream for satisfaction. There is only one way - the cross. The answer... ? By the power that is contained in the "Law of the Spirit of LIFE IN Christ Jesus", you will mercilessly deny the flesh. If you try to follow Moses and not commit adultery, you will fail. The Law addresses the flesh and its discipline. Romans 7 says that you will fail. If you turn to your spirit to the One Who dwells there, you will slay Amalek.

That is what Romans Chapter 8 is all about.

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by AdHoc

[Guest]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I agree, but it is complicated. And God's solution is magnificent. Let us weigh up some facts against each other.

Paul, in Romans Chapter 7, comes to a conclusion that, (i) evil dwells in the body, (ii) no good thing dwells in our bodies

I understand your reasoning and makes good points if "the flesh" in Rom 7:18 refers to the physical body, but "flesh" here, and in nearly all of the NT usages of the word refers to, not the physical body but the human nature: IV) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4561/kjv/tr/0-1/

 

It's my understanding that the physical body has no sinful sources, just sinful sources (old man, old nature) using it for evil. The soul of a person is what incurs accountability, it being the decision element. The body is a thing and has no soul like the spirit does. If we suspected evil within the physical body (a very common mistake) it would most of all conflict with the holy state that the Spirit indwells it (1Co 6:16,19). Regardless of how the body is used, as instruments of righteousness or unrighteousness, it is ever absent of accountability of itself.

 

 

 

 

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, WordSword said:

I understand your reasoning and makes good points if "the flesh" in Rom 7:18 refers to the physical body, but "flesh" here, and in nearly all of the NT usages of the word refers to, not the physical body but the human nature: IV) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4561/kjv/tr/0-1/

 

It's my understanding that the physical body has no sinful sources, just sinful sources (old man, old nature) using it for evil. The soul of a person is what incurs accountability, it being the decision element. The body is a thing and has no soul like the spirit does. If we suspected evil within the physical body (a very common mistake) it would most of all conflict with the holy state that the Spirit indwells it (1Co 6:16,19). Regardless of how the body is used, as instruments of righteousness or unrighteousness, it is ever absent of accountability of itself.

 

 

 

 

I hear you. This is a great subject, and men are perplexed by it. I am first going to paste 9 passages of scripture without comment. Then I would like address your view above. Here they are;

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Corinthians 15:42–43 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Now I would like to comment on 1st Corinthians 6:16 & 19. The Tabernacle/Temple of God is made of three parts; (i) The outer court, (ii) the Holy Place, and (iii) the Holy of Holies. Man too is made of three parts, (i) the body, (ii) the soul, and (iii) the spirit (Gen.2:7, 1st Thess.5:23). God's actual dwelling place in the Temple was under the Cherubim on the Mercy Seat of the Ark (Ex.25:21-22). The outer court served to house the Altar and Laver and is there because of sin and trespasses. The Holy Place held three things (i) the Menorah or Lampstand for enlightening man, (ii) the Shewbread Altar for spiritually nourishing man, and (iii) the Incense Altar for carrying men's prayers to God.

In my estimation the Outer Court speaks for man's Body. An Altar is for terminating the flesh and the Laver is for ritual cleanness for entry into the "Tent". The Holy Place speaks for the Soul were we are enlightened, nourished by God's Word and formulate our prayers. The human spirit is the actual dwelling place of God. In John 3:6 it is only the spirit that is born again, and in John 4:24 it is the place we go to to have fellowship with, and worship toward, God. Romans 8 deals with the human spirit that houses the Holy Spirit. My previous longish posting was to show how God gets around our sinful, corrupt and dishonorable body as the Outer Court.

1st Corinthians 6:15-19 shows the WHOLE structure as one unit - the Temple without going into specifics. These can be gleaned form other scriptures. But we do have a hint of the matter. He who is joined to the harlot is "ONE BODY" with her. But he who is joined to the Lord is "ONE SPIRIT". And if you turn back one Chapter to Chapter 5, the handing over of the incestuous brother for death (destruction of the flesh), is to preserve the spirit. God will not retreat in the face of defilement. He simply hands the Christian over to death in which the three parts of man are sundered.

I realize that if you have held another understanding for some time, or if my presentation is poor, or if I am wrong (easily possible in such a profound matter), we will have to agree to disagree. I would like to summarize thus; The body of Adam was created in good order and he could talk face to face with God without hindrance. But when he ATE (a matter of the Body) he was poisoned and it is his (and ours) BODY that dies because of sin (Rom.5:23). For this we have the resurrection. But in order to be able to participate in God's building of the Church, we need to stay alive. God circumvents killing us immediately by creating the New Man IN Christ. Christ, having fulfilled all God's requirements, IS OUR ORIGIN. So IN Christ we enjoy all His achievements.

This thinking is foreign to man. Man discards the damaged goods and must start anew. God deals with it in the power of Christ's Work.

Edited February 25, 2022 by AdHoc
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[Guest]

19 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Now I would like to comment on 1st Corinthians 6:16 & 19.

Appreciate your sincerity, and like your thoughts and comments here, but not sure what you would like me to address (if any).

[Dennis1209]

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.